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Various questions about staffing onboard trains.

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railwaytrack

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I am just doing some research and was wondering if anyone on here would kindly be able to answer any of my questions below if you know the answer to them:

• When exactly did Gatwick Express go DOO? Was it at the same time that the loco hauled trains were replaced by the 460s? So were the loco hauled trains Guard operated until the final day and the 460s were DOO since day one? Or was there a period where the 460s were actually Guard operated?

• When Gatwick Express went DOO and the 460s were introduced what was the job title if the people onboard who sold and checked tickets? I know it was not OBS as that term had not been introduced yet but i just can not remember what they were called?

• When did Gatwick Express get rid of the people who checked and sold tickets onboard? I think it was shortly after Govia took over from National Express so maybe the late 2000s or early 2010s but i can not remember exactly when they got rid of them?

• When did Gatwick Express introduce OBS on to their trains? I think it was at some point during the chaos of 2016/2017/2018 but i can not remember when?

• Do the Gatwick Express OBS get a 50p per ticket commission just like the Southern OBS do? Or do they get a different amount? Or no commission at all?

• Since the Gatwick Express has restarted a few months ago after the two year suspension have the OBS come back too? Has anyone been on it at all recently and can confirm if the OBS are back or are the trains now running without an OBS again?

• Does anyone know if Southern and Gatwick Express have any RPIs these days? When they went DOO and introduced the OBS they converted 100% of all Southern and Gatwick Express RPIs to OBS so i am wondering if this is still the case? Or have they bought back RPIs again?

• What was the job title of the people that checked and sold tickets on the Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect trains?

• When did they get rid of the people that checked and sold tickets on the Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect trains? I am thinking it must have been the same time that ticket barriers were installed? Does anyone remember when that was?

• At any point did Stansted Express have people on the train checking tickets? I can not remember seeing any but i am wondering if they may have?

• When exactly did Chiltern Railways get rid of catering trolleys?

• When exactly did Gatwick Express get rid of catering trolleys?

• When exactly did FGW or GWR get rid of catering trolleys on the North Downs Line services?

• When exactly did London Midland get rid of catering trolleys?

• When exactly did SWR or SWT get rid of catering trolleys?

• When exactly did Southeastern get rid of catering trolleys?

• When exactly did Southern get rid of catering trolleys?

• When exactly did C2C go DOO? I know they had Guards (or the silly name of Train Captain as they called them) on all their 12 coach 357s until quite recently? I know in 2016 i definitely saw Guards still? So i am presuming it was around 2016/2017/2018/2019 but does anyone know a more exact or at least rough date?

• When exactly did London Overground go DOO? I am pretty sure there were two separate dates (one for the NLL 378s and one for the GOBLIN 172s a few months later) but i am not sure when? I think it was the early 2010s or around then?

• When exactly did Irish Rail go DOO? I am thinking it must have been the 1990s or so when they replaced locomotive hauled trains with multiple units? How did they manage to convert their entire network (except cross border trains) to DOO? Were there lots of strikes and chaos when it happened?

• Does anyone else other than Scotrail and GWR employ Ticket Examiners or Ticket Inspectors (people who sell tickets on trains but are not Guards and can not issue Penalty Fares or prosecutions)?

• Are the Scotrail Ticket Examiners guaranteed (ie the train can not run without them) or are they like the Southern OBS and the train can run without them if necessary? Also are they safety critical?

• Are the Southeastern OBMs guaranteed (ie the train can not run without them) or are they like the Southern OBS and the train can run without them if necessary? Also are they safety critical?

• Can anyone confirm are the Lumo 803s fully DOO? Are these "Customer Experience Ambassadors" safety critical? Are these "Customer Experience Ambassadors" guaranteed or can the train run without them if it is necessary?

• Is there any differences at all between RPIs (Revenue Protection Inspectors) and RPOs (Revenue Protection Officers) or any of the other many terms for revenue staff (eg, RCI, RCO, FCI, FCO, RPI, RPO, Passenger Host, etc) or is it just the term that the TOC decides to use? I was wondering if different revenue staff have different powers? Can some only issue Penalty Fares but others can prosecute too?

Sorry for so many questions and thank you in advance for any help with any of my questions here.

I have tried researching on Google but it is very difficult to find answers to a lot of these questions.

Also i was not sure what section to put this in to as it is not about getting a job so i did not think it was right for the jobs section but feel free to move it if you think it should be elsewhere.
 
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TT-ONR-NRN

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• When exactly did Chiltern Railways get rid of catering trolleys?

• When exactly did Gatwick Express get rid of catering trolleys?

• When exactly did FGW or GWR get rid of catering trolleys on the North Downs Line services?

• When exactly did London Midland get rid of catering trolleys?

• When exactly did SWR or SWT get rid of catering trolleys?

• When exactly did Southeastern get rid of catering trolleys?

• When exactly did Southern get rid of catering trolleys?.

Chiltern axed Catering in May 2017, which had been trolleys on most Clubmen mainline services and an “Expresso Bar” with a fairly generous (for the shorter distance) menu was in operation on hauled silver sets.

Govia Thameslink Railway stopped catering in July 2015. Southeastern the year before. London Midland in 2011.

I wasn’t aware First Great Western offered catering on the North Downs Lines. They definitely did on fast London 166s right up until their transfer to Bristol - where they continued to offer trolleys until the start of this year.
 

island

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• What was the job title of the people that checked and sold tickets on the Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect trains?
Customer host, if memory serves.
• When exactly did Irish Rail go DOO? I am thinking it must have been the 1990s or so when they replaced locomotive hauled trains with multiple units? How did they manage to convert their entire network (except cross border trains) to DOO? Were there lots of strikes and chaos when it happened?
Iarnród Éireann has not (yet) "gone DOO", some routes such as Limerick Junction to Waterford still carry guards, as does the Enterprise. The DART has been DOO since inception. InterCity routes began moving to DOO in 2006 with the introduction of the Mark 4 sets on Dublin to Cork. Multiple units did not routinely appear on InterCity trains until 2007 when the 22000 class came along (I say "routinely" in that 2800 and 29000 class Commuter DMUs showed up from time to time on longer distance routes due to stock shortages).

The Dublin to Cork route now operates DOO in the sense that the driver does the doors; however, a train cannot operate without a second member of staff on board. This can be a second driver grade in the rear cab, but more usually is a "train host" whose notional role is to deal with customer service issues on board, perform minor repairs like fixing the toilet, announce stations if the PIS breaks, and so on. The majority of the train hosts spend most of their time sat at the end of first class or in the rear cab, perhaps after a perfunctory walk through the train. Guards on routes that converted were able to apply for train host roles on preserved terms though some left on redundancy.
• Are the Southeastern OBMs guaranteed (ie the train can not run without them) or are they like the Southern OBS and the train can run without them if necessary? Also are they safety critical?
High speed services do not run without an OBM, but they are not classed as safety-critical staff.
• Can anyone confirm are the Lumo 803s fully DOO? Are these "Customer Experience Ambassadors" safety critical? Are these "Customer Experience Ambassadors" guaranteed or can the train run without them if it is necessary?
I read somewhere that at least one per train is a fully trained driver.
• Is there any differences at all between RPIs (Revenue Protection Inspectors) and RPOs (Revenue Protection Officers) or any of the other many terms for revenue staff (eg, RCI, RCO, FCI, FCO, RPI, RPO, Passenger Host, etc) or is it just the term that the TOC decides to use? I was wondering if different revenue staff have different powers? Can some only issue Penalty Fares but others can prosecute too?
All just different in-house names.

Staff need to be signed-off as "collectors" to issue Penalty Fares but anyone can report for investigation or prosecution.
 

TFN

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What was the job title of the people that checked and sold tickets on the Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect trains?
On the Heathrow Express, this has changed over the years, from becoming Customer Hosts, Customer Concierge and now it's Sales and Service Ambassador.

When did they get rid of the people that checked and sold tickets on the Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect trains? I am thinking it must have been the same time that ticket barriers were installed? Does anyone remember when that was?

I believe it was around December 2019 where they stopped checking tickets on board, as that was when HEX accepted Oyster/Contactless and barriers were in use.

The SSAs still check first class and all tickets if any barriers are open.
 

railwaytrack

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Chiltern axed Catering in May 2017, which had been trolleys on most Clubmen mainline services and an “Expresso Bar” with a fairly generous (for the shorter distance) menu was in operation on hauled silver sets.

Govia Thameslink Railway stopped catering in July 2015. Southeastern the year before. London Midland in 2011.

I wasn’t aware First Great Western offered catering on the North Downs Lines. They definitely did on fast London 166s right up until their transfer to Bristol - where they continued to offer trolleys until the start of this year.
Thank you for the information. That is very helpful. It is a shame the catering has stopped on so many TOCs that use to have it.

GWR certainly had trolleys on the North Downs Line 165/166 within the past few years. But it was only certain journeys during the day and only on the fast trains. I definitely saw trolleys on the North Downs Line within the past five years. But i have not seen them since the corona virus started. So they might possibly be fully withdrawn now.

Customer host, if memory serves.

Iarnród Éireann has not (yet) "gone DOO", some routes such as Limerick Junction to Waterford still carry guards, as does the Enterprise. The DART has been DOO since inception. InterCity routes began moving to DOO in 2006 with the introduction of the Mark 4 sets on Dublin to Cork. Multiple units did not routinely appear on InterCity trains until 2007 when the 22000 class came along (I say "routinely" in that 2800 and 29000 class Commuter DMUs showed up from time to time on longer distance routes due to stock shortages).

The Dublin to Cork route now operates DOO in the sense that the driver does the doors; however, a train cannot operate without a second member of staff on board. This can be a second driver grade in the rear cab, but more usually is a "train host" whose notional role is to deal with customer service issues on board, perform minor repairs like fixing the toilet, announce stations if the PIS breaks, and so on. The majority of the train hosts spend most of their time sat at the end of first class or in the rear cab, perhaps after a perfunctory walk through the train. Guards on routes that converted were able to apply for train host roles on preserved terms though some left on redundancy.

High speed services do not run without an OBM, but they are not classed as safety-critical staff.

I read somewhere that at least one per train is a fully trained driver.

All just different in-house names.

Staff need to be signed-off as "collectors" to issue Penalty Fares but anyone can report for investigation or prosecution.
Thank you for the information. That is interesting to hear. I had always thought that the Enterprise and the once a day in each direction stopping train to and from Newry were the only Irish Rail services with Guards still.

So on the Limerick to Waterford route does the Guard actually open the doors and close the doors and dispatch the train? Or is it similar to the AGA Guards who have nothing to do with these any more? I have had a look at some videos of trains on these routes online and i can not see any Guards so i am guessing it is done in the AGA style? Which other routes also have Guards still? Are the Limerick to Galway and Limerick to Ballybrophy the same as the Limerick to Waterford route? Any others as well?

When you say there has to be a second person onboard on the Dublin to Cork route does this only apply to the locomotive hauled trains? Or does this apply to the 22000 too?

Also do you know if Irish Rail Guards are still officially called Guards? Or have they changed it to Conductor or Train Manager or something else like many UK TOCs have done?

Very interesting to hear about the Lumo arrangements. I did not expect at least one of the Customer Experience Ambassadors per train to be a Driver so that is very surprising. They are both such different roles. I wonder why they have done it this way.

On the Heathrow Express, this has changed over the years, from becoming Customer Hosts, Customer Concierge and now it's Sales and Service Ambassador.



I believe it was around December 2019 where they stopped checking tickets on board, as that was when HEX accepted Oyster/Contactless and barriers were in use.

The SSAs still check first class and all tickets if any barriers are open.
Thank you for the information. I did not realise Heathrow Express still had them onboard. Although i suppose it makes sense to check first class as otherwise anyone could sit there.

I wonder if they are still able to sell tickets onboard (such as if someone boards with a TFL Rail ticket) or if they are just directed to purchase on arrival at the station.
 

43066

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I am just doing some research and was wondering if anyone on here would kindly be able to answer any of my questions below if you know the answer to them:

Out of interest, what is the purpose of the research? Is it being done as a matter of general interest for yourself, as part of a course of study, or in a professional capacity on behalf of some other organisation?
 

TFN

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I wonder if they are still able to sell tickets onboard (such as if someone boards with a TFL Rail ticket) or if they are just directed to purchase on arrival at the station.
They are able to sell HEX tickets so indeed anyone with TfL Rail tickets can purchase HEX tickets onboard (card payments only).
 

island

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So on the Limerick to Waterford route does the Guard actually open the doors and close the doors and dispatch the train?
Yes – I think it might now be driver release and guard close. Starting signal is given by way of a green flag as the rolling stock does not have a buzzer system.
Are the Limerick to Galway and Limerick to Ballybrophy the same as the Limerick to Waterford route? Any others as well?
Limerick to Ballybrophy via Nenagh also operates with guards. Ennis to Galway is driver only operation, ticket examiners also operate on the route although their Crouzet ticket machines were life-expired many years ago and I don't know what they use now.
When you say there has to be a second person onboard on the Dublin to Cork route does this only apply to the locomotive hauled trains? Or does this apply to the 22000 too?
Only the loco hauled. A 22000 can go anywhere it wants with driver only except the above mentioned Tipperary routes or cross border.
Also do you know if Irish Rail Guards are still officially called Guards? Or have they changed it to Conductor or Train Manager or something else like many UK TOCs have done?
Train Host on the DOO routes and guard otherwise.
 

Royston Vasey

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Out of interest, what is the purpose of the research? Is it being done as a matter of general interest for yourself, as part of a course of study, or in a professional capacity on behalf of some other organisation?
Seems like we are being asked to do some very detailed pro bono consulting work.

It would be courteous, to say the least, to state the purpose of the research (some of the answers to which may be commercially sensitive) and the position of the OP (journalist, consultant, trade union researcher, student...?)
 
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railwaytrack

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Out of interest, what is the purpose of the research? Is it being done as a matter of general interest for yourself, as part of a course of study, or in a professional capacity on behalf of some other organisation?
It is just for research for myself for my own general interest regarding this. It is not part of a study or organisation or anything like that.

They are able to sell HEX tickets so indeed anyone with TfL Rail tickets can purchase HEX tickets onboard (card payments only).
Thank you for the information. That makes sense. It is certainly a very expensive mistake to make to get on a Heathrow Express train instead of a TFL Rail train. I wonder how the deal with any passengers who only have cash.

Yes – I think it might now be driver release and guard close. Starting signal is given by way of a green flag as the rolling stock does not have a buzzer system.

Limerick to Ballybrophy via Nenagh also operates with guards. Ennis to Galway is driver only operation, ticket examiners also operate on the route although their Crouzet ticket machines were life-expired many years ago and I don't know what they use now.

Only the loco hauled. A 22000 can go anywhere it wants with driver only except the above mentioned Tipperary routes or cross border.

Train Host on the DOO routes and guard otherwise.
Thank you for the further information. That is interesting to hear. On the class 2600/2700/2800 there is only a cab door on one side of each cab. So this means that depending on the platform side at some stations in some directions it is impossible to despatch from the rear cab. So i am not sure how they despatch and do the doors and the flag when there is often no rear cab to use? Do they use the front cab in these situations?

Does anyone have a photo of the tickets issued from the Crouzet ticket machines? I collect tickets and would be quite interested to see what they look like? Maybe they have replaced them with a smartphone and printer like what all of our UK TOCs have done. That would be my guess.

I must take another trip to Ireland soon. It has been so many years since i have been there. They certainly have an interesting railway network.

Seems like we are being asked to do some very detailed pro bono consulting work.

It would be courteous, to say the least, to state the purpose of the research (some of the answers to which may be commercially sensitive) and the position of the OP (journalist, consultant, trade union researcher, student...?)
It is just for research for myself for my own general interest regarding this. It is not part of a study or organisation or anything like that.
 

island

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Thank you for the further information. That is interesting to hear. On the class 2600/2700/2800 there is only a cab door on one side of each cab. So this means that depending on the platform side at some stations in some directions it is impossible to despatch from the rear cab. So i am not sure how they despatch and do the doors and the flag when there is often no rear cab to use? Do they use the front cab in these situations?
I am afraid you have reached the limit of my knowledge on the subject; perhaps www.railusers.ie may be able to go into additional detail.
Does anyone have a photo of the tickets issued from the Crouzet ticket machines? I collect tickets and would be quite interested to see what they look like? Maybe they have replaced them with a smartphone and printer like what all of our UK TOCs have done. That would be my guess.
I shall have a dig through my tickets when I get a chance, but I think I have only ever been issued two, as I've rarely had cause to begin from an unstaffed station.

This article may be of some interest regarding their new ticketing equipment from 2019: https://www.sqills.com/irish-rail-update-going-portable/
 

railwaytrack

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I am afraid you have reached the limit of my knowledge on the subject; perhaps www.railusers.ie may be able to go into additional detail.

I shall have a dig through my tickets when I get a chance, but I think I have only ever been issued two, as I've rarely had cause to begin from an unstaffed station.

This article may be of some interest regarding their new ticketing equipment from 2019: https://www.sqills.com/irish-rail-update-going-portable/
Many thanks. That article is very interesting. It looks like they have switched to receipt type tickets onboard. That old onboard machine is massive and they had to carry around all different ticket stocks too. I thought the old Avantix machines were large but that makes them look like nothing.
 

centro-323

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I read somewhere that at least one [member of the customer service staff] per train is a fully trained driver.
One of those bizarre Lumo rumours which seems to have persisted! Not true I'm afraid, though you might occasionally see a driver or one of the managers helping out with on-board duties if travelling pass on a busy train.
 

railwaytrack

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One of those bizarre Lumo rumours which seems to have persisted! Not true I'm afraid, though you might occasionally see a driver or one of the managers helping out with on-board duties if travelling pass on a busy train.
Thank you for the update. I thought maybe that was a cost saving method by Lumo getting their Drivers to do both roles. So is Lumo actually fully DOO then? So the train can run without any Customer Experience Ambassadors or any second member of staff onboard if necessary?

Am i correct in thinking that there has actually been a few occasions in the past where certain employees work as both a Driver and a Guard? I remember hearing in the past there were a few occasions where a staff member was both a Driver and a Guard? So on different days they would take different roles? I am pretty sure that Silverlink had a few employees who were both a Driver and a Guard? There might have been a few other TOCs too?

Also i think Aylesbury depot had some RPIs who acted as Guards on the West Ealing (or London Paddington as it was) parliamentary service? Although i think this does not happen anymore and it is just worked by Banbury depot Guards now?
 

centro-323

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So is Lumo actually fully DOO then? So the train can run without any Customer Experience Ambassadors or any second member of staff onboard if necessary?
Since the driver is in charge of all dispatch duties using the bodyside cameras, it is technically possible to run with no Customer Ambassadors on board, yes. Of course this would be very undesirable for a long distance service, but if some error or incident occurs where the only other alternative is cancelling the train, then this is an option.
 
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