vegetation management

[MisterSheeps]

I was not sure where to put this, here seems as good as anywhere given the old chestnut about steam being responsible for keeping vegetation under control. I find this unlikely 'in toto', but can believe ejected cinders burnt patches of vegetation in dry weather. When did non maintenance of lineside vegetation become an issue? Did the lengthsmen cut vegetation back, then that job was automated and the secondary task of vegetation control was no longer done? Was the banning of effective herbicides responsible? Would lineside flailing from rail mounted plant help? This post ( https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-issue-do-not-travel-message-23-08.272790/post-6908261 ) blames treefall on lack of vegetation management. Is it fair?

 

[Ashley Hill]

Certainly the PW were responsible for cutting back lineside vegetation. When as a trainee back in the 80s I spent time with a local PW gang. Apart from learning how to measure shovel pack we spent a week cutting back both sides of a long cutting. It looked good once finished and it was probably the last time it was done. The site is now unrecognisable with mature trees,bushes and bramble lining the cutting the whole cutting. Shame.

 

[MisterSheeps]

Certainly the PW were responsible for cutting back lineside vegetation

Thank you! There's a fascinating photo of a Foxline book about the Midland route through the Peak District, in the Hassop area, which shows bushes trimmed to exotic shapes by rail workers

 

[D Williams]

I was not sure where to put this, here seems as good as anywhere given the old chestnut about steam being responsible for keeping vegetation under control. I find this unlikely 'in toto', but can believe ejected cinders burnt patches of vegetation in dry weather. When did non maintenance of lineside vegetation become an issue? Did the lengthsmen cut vegetation back, then that job was automated and the secondary task of vegetation control was no longer done? Was the banning of effective herbicides responsible? Would lineside flailing from rail mounted plant help? This post ( https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-issue-do-not-travel-message-23-08.272790/post-6908261 ) blames treefall on lack of vegetation management. Is it fair?

The old adage was "nothing higher than a blade of grass inside the fence". Lineside fires were a major problem with steam traction hence regular scalping of embankments etc. by the pway gang. Have you never watched Thomas the Tank? Also something equivalent to Agent Orange was sprayed to eradicate weeds.

 

[MisterSheeps]

problem with steam traction

I can just about remember steam, but the 'green tunnel' phenomenon was not present in the 80's, long after steam, as quoted by @Ashley Hill Ashl

was sprayed to eradicate weeds

this was specifically onto the ballast & shoulders ... did it drift on the entire boundary?

 

[Rescars]

Edwardian era photographs frequently show how manicured the trackside was pre WW1. For instance , some of the grass near junctions looks to have been of a lawn quality that would not look out of place at Wimbledon. Presumably this level of upkeep could not be maintained in the less economically favourable times post war.

In my youth, I recall coming across some more or less empty discarded tins of railway weedkiller, clearly labelled as containing DDT. A potential souvenir I was unsurprisingly not encouraged to keep! Nasty stuff - no doubt highly effective on the weeds and bugs, but what it did to everything and anyone else wasn't good news.

 

[Ashley Hill]

I can just about remember steam, but the 'green tunnel' phenomenon was not present in the 80's,

When you see a train shaped gap in the green tunnel it’s not good,indeed it looks bad.
Trouble nowadays is you can’t disturb birds when cutting back mechanically and you have to watch the chemicals so you don’t pollute any watercourses. Most weed killers these days seem to turn the surface foliage brown,but a good shower and a bit of sun soon grows it all back again.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Growing up backing onto the WCML 1966-1975 I distinctly remember railway maintenance people deliberately setting fire to the embankment in controlled burns. Well after steam era too!

 

[Taunton]

The gangs at Taunton long ago spent quite an amount of their time keeping vegetation under control. Not just trees and bushes, there were drainage channels to be kept unblocked from sticks etc as well, and the ballast was totally weed-free.

In days of lesser Health & Safety some lineside work was also subcontracted to adjacent farmers.

I have written before about the propensity of the 82xxx Standard tank locos, which late in the day had been drafted in to Taunton, to set fire to adjacent fields. The climb beyond Bishops Lydeard on the Minehead line was one such location, and eventually the locos were (unofficially) banned there in dry weather. The main issue was the "self cleaning" smokeboxes, which by design pumped hot ashes out of the chimney continuously, to save shovelling them out at the end of the day.

 

[Snow1964]

Growing up backing onto the WCML 1966-1975 I distinctly remember railway maintenance people deliberately setting fire to the embankment in controlled burns. Well after steam era too!

I grew up next to third rail electrified Bournemouth line and they did that there too in 1970s

And lot of the trimming was done with hand tools (scythes on poles) so took ages compared to using modern battery cutters where strips can be cut down to ankle height at almost walking pace.

They no longer cut the grass back on that embankment, but do seem to periodically cut down anything resembling a bush, or bramble or tree before it gets to waist height and might attract nesting birds or grow so big a chain saw is required.

 

[The exile]

this was specifically onto the ballast & shoulders ... did it drift on the entire boundary?

It certainly did at times.

 

[Rescars]

When you see a train shaped gap in the green tunnel it’s not good,indeed it looks bad.
Trouble nowadays is you can’t disturb birds when cutting back mechanically and you have to watch the chemicals so you don’t pollute any watercourses. Most weed killers these days seem to turn the surface foliage brown,but a good shower and a bit of sun soon grows it all back again.

One steam era railway which was famed for having a green tunnel was the long-closed Bishops Castle. This line also had a custom of replacing sleepers with freshly sawn wood cut from beside the line - which then went on to grow green shoots of their own. Standards were different in that part of Shropshire!

 

[Harpo]

Silver birch is a fast grower (almost half a metre a year) and the number of mature corridors of them inside the boundary fence tell their own story.

The Wokingham - Guildford line has some nice linear SB arboretums and Stourbridge towards Brum was noticeable on the way back from the SVR.

Trouble is, Silver Birch isn’t a long living species…….

 

[davetheguard]

The gangs at Taunton long ago spent quite an amount of their time keeping vegetation under control.

Just for comparison, here are a couple of pictures of the situation in Taunton station in 2024. It was taken from inside a train standing at the up main line platform yesterday (1st October 2024).

Signal sighting and safety etc. aside, appearances count: does this look like a railway that is being looked after & well maintained? What does it do for the public's perception of Network Rail?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

...does this look like a railway that is being looked after & well maintained? What does it do for the public's perception of Network Rail?

Almost looks as if the units have been taken out of use and parked up in a field.

 

[Taunton]

Thank you. The head ganger at Taunton in the 1960s was a good family friend. He will be turning in his grave ...

It's no different to the Network Rail maintenance depot for the London end of the GWML at Southall London, which itself looks like The Day of the Triffids is advancing across the ballast. The MPVs based there may soon need to be assisted by the snowplough to get out.

 

[unslet]

Plenty of scratches to be seen running lengthways on the sides of the 800s in the photos. Vegetation is getting out of control in some areas.

 

[BigDog]

I can't weigh up NWR and their logic sometimes. I couple of years ago at my last firm I was on a big vegetation management job at Cunliffe, Leeds which involved felling trees. The job was huge and the embankment looked like a forest. We started in spring so needed an ecologist on the job to look out for birds. What a stupid idea to start on spring, all these major jobs should be started in the fall/winter, less growth and more importantly, no nesting birds.

 

[LUYMun]

delete

 

[Irascible]

all these major jobs should be started in the fall/winter, less growth and more importantly, no nesting birds.

Um, to be clear, are we talking about the american term for Autumn, or is it some other colloquialism or name for winter? ( I'm always looking for fun regional things )

There were some seriously overgrown bits of track in the 80s too - I guess it all depended on the timing of a PW gang visit.

 

[BigDog]

Um, to be clear, are we talking about the american term for Autumn, or is it some other colloquialism or name for winter? ( I'm always looking for fun regional things )

There were some seriously overgrown bits of track in the 80s too - I guess it all depended on the timing of a PW gang visit.

Yes, that, lol. These jobs are planned well in advance, I can't get my head around their way of thinking sometimes.

 

[bleeder4]

Just for comparison, here are a couple of pictures of the situation in Taunton station in 2024. It was taken from inside a train standing at the up main line platform yesterday (1st October 2024).

Signal sighting and safety etc. aside, appearances count: does this look like a railway that is being looked after & well maintained? What does it do for the public's perception of Network Rail?

Taunton has also had the last 30 or so yards of each platform abandoned, with a veritable forest now growing up from each of those platform ends. Looks a total eyesore as you come into the station.

 

[randyrippley]

Edwardian era photographs frequently show how manicured the trackside was pre WW1. For instance , some of the grass near junctions looks to have been of a lawn quality that would not look out of place at Wimbledon. Presumably this level of upkeep could not be maintained in the less economically favourable times post war.

In my youth, I recall coming across some more or less empty discarded tins of railway weedkiller, clearly labelled as containing DDT. A potential souvenir I was unsurprisingly not encouraged to keep! Nasty stuff - no doubt highly effective on the weeds and bugs, but what it did to everything and anyone else wasn't good news.

DDT is an insecticide, not a herbicide. Wouldn't have any effect on vegetation

I can't weigh up NWR and their logic sometimes. I couple of years ago at my last firm I was on a big vegetation management job at Cunliffe, Leeds which involved felling trees. The job was huge and the embankment looked like a forest. We started in spring so needed an ecologist on the job to look out for birds. What a stupid idea to start on spring, all these major jobs should be started in the fall/winter, less growth and more importantly, no nesting birds.

Problem with doing it in winter is wet ground conditions, making vehicle access more difficult and compacting the ground.
Doing it in autumn destroys any wildlife food in the form of berries or nuts
Can't win whenever you do it

 

[The exile]

DDT is an insecticide, not a herbicide. Wouldn't have any effect on vegetation

The indirect effect might well be more growth - with less around to nibble away at it!

 

[randyrippley]

I was not sure where to put this, here seems as good as anywhere given the old chestnut about steam being responsible for keeping vegetation under control. I find this unlikely 'in toto', but can believe ejected cinders burnt patches of vegetation in dry weather. When did non maintenance of lineside vegetation become an issue? Did the lengthsmen cut vegetation back, then that job was automated and the secondary task of vegetation control was no longer done? Was the banning of effective herbicides responsible? Would lineside flailing from rail mounted plant help? This post ( https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-issue-do-not-travel-message-23-08.272790/post-6908261 ) blames treefall on lack of vegetation management. Is it fair?

As a kid in the 1960s I can remember embankment vegetation being kept under control with deliberate controlled burns, a bit like burning gorse and heather on moorland

 

[bspahh]

There were some seriously overgrown bits of track in the 80s too - I guess it all depended on the timing of a PW gang visit.

This is a video of the crash site at Seer Green in 1981 which shows the overhanging branches

 

[BigDog]

DDT is an insecticide, not a herbicide. Wouldn't have any effect on vegetation


Problem with doing it in winter is wet ground conditions, making vehicle access more difficult and compacting the ground.
Doing it in autumn destroys any wildlife food in the form of berries or nuts
Can't win whenever you do it

This job was done with the use of RRV's, it made no sense at all to start in the spring.

 

[High Dyke]

And to add, during steam days local p-way gangs were judged on keeping their section in a well maintained order. Something that doesn't seem to happen the same these days.

 

[Taunton]

And to add, during steam days local p-way gangs were judged on keeping their section in a well maintained order. Something that doesn't seem to happen the same these days.

This was a grand day, the Saloon, hauled by a loco particularly polished up for the day, would come slowly along, with the District Civil Engineer, the District Superintendent, and other high-ups, all looking out of the rear windows and taking notes for their Judgement. The award would often be displayed at a station. I believe in Scotland there was a lineside sign "Prize Length", which was erected on the winner's territory in a prominent position.

Maybe another award for Roger Ford to move on to.

Just in passing, why are the London Underground open sections so weed-free, in comparison to the adjacent Network Rail ones?

 

[Rescars]

Just in passing, why are the London Underground open sections so weed-free, in comparison to the adjacent Network Rail ones?

Perhaps it's something to do with TfL's In Bloom competition. Your timing is spot on - I have just been reading about this year's winners who have been featured on the BBC London News website this morning.