'via London' & 'not via London validity' (originally for Gatwick - Maidenhead)

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ess

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i'm tempted to suggest this person uses the coach to avoid the gatwick express nonsense because its not clear to me whether an off peak single from gatwick to maidenhead is valid on all trains to london including the gatwick express. is it or not?

second question - why would gatwick to maidenhead via reading be more expensive that via london which includes a tube fare?
 
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Deerfold

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i'm tempted to suggest this person uses the coach to avoid the gatwick express nonsense because its not clear to me whether an off peak single from gatwick to maidenhead is valid on all trains to london including the gatwick express. is it or not?
If it's routed "Any Permitted" it'll be fine. It's only a cause of confusion if it mentions Southern.

second question - why would gatwick to maidenhead via reading be more expensive that via london which includes a tube fare?
Because it's further? (I'm guessing here.)

In any case there's no guarantee of logic in rail ticket prices.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Because it's further? (I'm guessing here.)
By about 10 miles from what I can see (working off Via London as being avoiding Redhill to Victoria, then via High Street Kensington to Paddington).

Anyway, yes, FWICS, you should be fine using the Gat Ex on that ticket :)
 

wintonian

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i'm tempted to suggest this person uses the coach to avoid the gatwick express nonsense because its not clear to me whether an off peak single from gatwick to maidenhead is valid on all trains to london including the gatwick express. is it or not?

second question - why would gatwick to maidenhead via reading be more expensive that via london which includes a tube fare?
1, A route +any permitted will be valid on the Gatwick Express and route Reading Not Lond will not be valid at all from Victoria.

2, It depends the SOR is £53.20 avoiding London and £62.00 via London, the SVR is also more expensive via London, and it appears that only the CDR/ CDS are more expensive avoiding London and going via Reading and only by £1.50/ £0.50 respectively.

A £23.40 CDS route +via London is valid on all trains to London from Gatwick that arrive into London at or after 10:00 a £24.90 CDS route Reading Not Lond is not valid via London at all.
 

LexyBoy

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A £23.40 CDS route +via London is valid on all trains to London from Gatwick that arrive into London at or after 10:00 a £24.90 CDS route Reading Not Lond is not valid via London at all.
Except on trains arriving into London at or after 10:00, when it would be valid. "Not Via London" and "Via London" are not necessarily mutually exclusive. ;)
 

Deerfold

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Except on trains arriving into London at or after 10:00, when it would be valid. "Not Via London" and "Via London" are not necessarily mutually exclusive. ;)
Though you might want to get a zero excess to ensure you have no trouble crosing London if you wanted to use a Not via London to go via London.
 

wintonian

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Though you might want to get a zero excess to ensure you have no trouble crosing London if you wanted to use a Not via London to go via London.
Exactly on its own its not valid but with the zero fare excess then it would be.

Just trying to keep it simples. :)
 

reb0118

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how does that work then?
If there are two or more routes and you have paid for the highest priced route then any cheaper priced routes automatically become valid to you also. (As long as all other conditions of the ticket are met)

Confused? I am at times.

To use an example. (Please note I'm just going to make up the actual fares but the theory should be sound). Edinburgh to Manchester has two permitted routes 1) via Carlisle, as the shortest route this should in theory will be the cheapest & 2) via York. Tickets are marked "Carlisle" or "York" as appropriate, note that "Any Permitted" is not used. Now as "York" is the higher priced route tickets marked York are also valid via Carlisle.

Let us now throw a spanner in the works so to speak! Route York tickets are priced by East Coast and route Carlisle are priced by Virgin. If the bods at East Coast decide they want to compete with Virgin and reduce the price of their First Open Single (FOS) via York to LESS than the price Virgin charge for via Carlisle then this ticket will no longer be valid via Carlisle however conversely the route Carlisle FOS will now be valid via York

I hope the above is correct. I'm sure the resident fare experts will point out any errors :oops:
 

hairyhandedfool

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To explain......

To change the route on a ticket, generally speaking, you pay an excess fare. As the railway won't give you your money back for a cheaper route, in theory you should be given a zero fare excess. In practice you won't be given one because the railway don't want to waste money on free tickets if they don't have to.

So instead we are left with a slightly ridiculous situation where tickets marked not via London can be valid via London. Infact, I dare say there are cases where a ticket routed 'not via London' is valid 'not via London' at any time and 'via London' outside of a predefined morning and evening peak period.
 

wintonian

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Just a thought,

If you have such a 'not via London' ticket (the 'via London' being cheaper) and you can't get anyone to issue a zero fare excess does it retain the restriction code of a 'not via London ticket' or you would you need to refer to the relevent restriction code for the 'via London' ticket?
 
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RJ

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Ah, Not Via London but pemitted via London fares! Some of them seem like nothing other than silly oversights. There are even some instances where consecutive stations which are also routing points have this setup. Makes no sense really, unless you want to save on a season ticket to London I suppose.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Just a thought,

If you have such a 'not via London' ticket (the 'via London' being cheaper) and you can't get anyone to issue a zero fare excess does it retain the restriction code of a 'not via London ticket' or you would you need to refer to the relevent restriction code for the 'via London' ticket?
A ticket is valid along any route for which a lower fare applies. If a higher fare applies you must pay the difference.
 

LexyBoy

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If a higher fare applied for the journey at that time then then it wouldn't be a zero fare excess.

For example, for some hypothetical Off Peak fares, if the Via London fare were £20 and valid from 10, and the Not London £25 and valid from 9, then the latter fare would not be valid via London between 9 and 10 as the appropriate via London ticket is an Anytime at (say) £40, so an excess of £15 would be due. After 10 the appropriate Via London fare becomes the £20 Off Peak and the ticket is valid (with actual or implicit zero excess).

My interpretation anyway, I'm sure others will see it otherwise.
 

hairyhandedfool

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Okay, let us assume there is an Off-Peak ticket costing £15 that is routed 'Not via London' and that there is no time restriction on this ticket. Let us also assume there is an Anytime fare costing £20 that is routed 'Via London'. Let us further assume there is an Off-Peak return costing £10 that is routed 'Via London, but it is not valid for travel before 0930 or between 1530 and 1930.

If you bought the 'Not via London' fare and traveled via London at 1200, you would not pay a penny and in theory be issued a zero fare excess fare (You won't get one because they are rarely issued).

If you bought that ticket and traveled at 1700, you would have to pay for a £5 excess to the Anytime fare as the Off-Peak fare is not valid at that time.
 

wintonian

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Anytown - Anywhere via London SDR £20
Anytown - Anywhere via London CDR £15 (valid on trains arriving into London at or after 10:00
Anytown - Anywhere not via London SDR £30
Anytown - Anywhere not via London CDR £22 (valid on trains departing at or after 08:30

The journy time via London is 1 hour.

If I have a Anytown - Anywhere not via London CDR and wanted to go via London (the excess was refuesd as it would be £0.00p) could I leave on the 08:35?
 

LexyBoy

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Not if the train arrives in London before 1000, you would need an excess to the via London SDR, that being the appropriate fare for the journey being made.
 

yorkie

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its not clear to me whether an off peak single from gatwick to maidenhead is valid on all trains to london including the gatwick express. is it or not??
It is not valid on "all trains to london"; it is however valid "By any train scheduled to arrive London Terminals or Kensington Olympia at or after 1000", therefore the first train you can take is the 0935 Gatwick Airport - London Victoria (arrives 1005), it is valid on all trains timed to depart after this train.
 
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sheff1

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Not if the train arrives in London before 1000, you would need an excess to the via London SDR, that being the appropriate fare for the journey being made.
But the via London SDR is only £20, so still cheaper than the not London CDR.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
If you state you want that train, and if it arrives before 1000, then if they refuse the excess because it's £0.00 then they have made a mistake as to what the appropriate fare is, and are undercharging you by £5 (both portions) or £2.50 (one portion).
Can you explain where the £5 / £2.50 comes from please.
 
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wintonian

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If you state you want that train, and if it arrives before 1000, then if they refuse the excess because it's £0.00 then they have made a mistake as to what the appropriate fare is, and are undercharging you by £5 (both portions) or £2.50 (one portion).
But the via London SDR is only £20, so still cheaper than the not London CDR.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Can you explain where the £5 / £2.50 comes from please.
The diffrence between the via London CDR and SDR, however as you say both via London fares are cheaper than the ticket allready held.
 

wintonian

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I'm much less confused now (I think) and can settle down to my pork chops without distraction.

Thats pretty much where I was, I just think this thread started confussing me a bit. ;)
 

RJ

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Seeing as the thread title has been changed...

If a ticket is routed not Via London and London is a permitted route, among other mapped routes, can a "London" combination of maps be used?

Furthermore is it permitted to bridge the gap using another means?

For example, say one holds a ticket from Forest Hill to East Dulwich routed Not Via London. Is it permitted to travel to New Cross Gate, then take a bus to Queens Road Peckham, then continue from there?
 

MarkyMarkD

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The whole issue of bridging gaps in maps is very interesting and I don't think there is a clear solution.

Both inside and outside London, there are gaps which are sensibly possible to walk. In London, there is the option (for some, but not all) to use the tube to bridge those gaps, but for others, a walk is mandatory (e.g. Baker Street > Marylebone, or Tower Hill > Fenchurch Street, or even Euston Square > Euston) - although, of course, the distances for some of these are not great compared to the enormous distances within the Kings Cross St Pancras complex.

It seems unlikely to me that you can use maps which are only relevant because one of the routes is "LONDON", if the specific ticket says "NOT LONDON" in its routeing restrictions.
 

wintonian

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Seeing as the thread title has been changed...

If a ticket is routed not Via London and London is a permitted route, among other mapped routes, can a "London" combination of maps be used?

Furthermore is it permitted to bridge the gap using another means?

For example, say one holds a ticket from Forest Hill to East Dulwich routed Not Via London. Is it permitted to travel to New Cross Gate, then take a bus to Queens Road Peckham, then continue from there?
I would say yes if the maps are identified individually as a set otherwise no.

Map combination 'London' means any permitted route to London and any permitted route from London as in this case we are not going to London then the fact that you can change from one to the other with out going to a terminus is irrelevant IMO.

If they wanted you to use a particular combination whilst avoiding London the would mention which maps they are and group them as a sperate set – in theory anyway.

I suspect others may disagree though.

2, walking between stations is allowed (which ones are and arent allowed I do not know) but I think I am safe in saying you can't get the bus from Basingstoke to Newbury for example just to get round a 'not Reading' restriction.
 

ess

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so is it right that IF a ticket route: NOT LONDON is excessed to route: VIA LONDON then a new ticket is issued (and the old one retained by the railway) which will show route: LONDON.

In that case is the new ticket no longer valid on the not london route?
 
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