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Victorian train lengths

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ess

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When stations like Kings Cross and Paddington were built, how many carriages were they built to accomodate? Was a long distance train ever expected to be 9+ carriages long?
 
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gazthomas

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I think the size of the train sheds would indicate quite long trains, take Kings Cross as an example. Remember that were less powerful and each carriage shorter than today
 

Adlington

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Nothing to to with King's Cross, just an example: one of the trains involved in the Lewisham rail crash (1857) was 14 carriages long.
In Wigan rail crash the train had two locomotives and 25 carriages, but this wasn't typical.
 

Bevan Price

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Early coaches were only 4 weels (2 axles); they were followed by 6 wheel coaches, and 8 wheel bogie coaches only started to become common in the late 19th century. Moreover, some of the early bogie coaches were not much longer than 50 feet.

In WW2, some 25 coach trains were known to have used Kings Cross -- but the loco & front coaches would have been in the tunnel at the north end of the station....
 

Iskra

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Early coaches were only 4 weels (2 axles); they were followed by 6 wheel coaches, and 8 wheel bogie coaches only started to become common in the late 19th century. Moreover, some of the early bogie coaches were not much longer than 50 feet.

In WW2, some 25 coach trains were known to have used Kings Cross -- but the loco & front coaches would have been in the tunnel at the north end of the station....
May I ask what services these 25 coach trains were running?
 

Bevan Price

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May I ask what services these 25 coach trains were running?
As far as I know, they were ordinary passenger services, operating on a reduced wartime timetable. I read about it many years ago (can't remeber where), and I thnk was just an occasional occurrence, not an everyday event.
 

Tobberz

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I'd be intreagued to know how a 25 coach train would work when it reached destinations outside Kings Cross. I mean, very little of the train could have fit into smaller stations.
 

snowball

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I'd be intreagued to know how a 25 coach train would work when it reached destinations outside Kings Cross. I mean, very little of the train could have fit into smaller stations.

Front coaches entrain/detrain, train pulls forward, some more coaches entrain/detrain?
 

Lemmy99uk

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An excursion from Nottingham in 1840 had 4 engines, 67 carriages and carried 3,000 passengers.
 

coupwotcoup

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The Round Oak crash in 1858 - The train left Wolverhampton at 9.12 AM, comprising 42 four-wheeled coaches and four brake vans.
 

AndyW33

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Think also that these Victorian stations often had really low platforms by modern standards. As a result carriages had a plethora of grabrails and footboards. So boarding from and alighting to ground level wasn't anywhere as difficult as with 1930s and later stock.
Lengthy trains may well have been split and loaded in adjacent platforms when departing termini, being combined before final departure, as all coaches before the late Victorian era were non-corridor. By the WW2 Kings Cross monster train era corridor stock on long distance services was the norm so the passengers, in many cases service personnel travelling to or from leave, or being posted to new locations, could make their way along the corridors and gangways between coaches.
Drawing up to load and unload trains that are too long for the platform was the norm at very many places right up to the 1980s when fixed-formation sets became the norm. BR and later TOC staff were taught the handsignals for doing this with hauled stock until relatively recently (and may still be, though buzzer and voice communication on units etc makes it easier). There's still a need where a train of units that aren't gangwayed between sets has to detrain all the passengers at some short-platform location because the line is blocked ahead
 

jon0844

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An excursion from Nottingham in 1840 had 4 engines, 67 carriages and carried 3,000 passengers.

'The next station has a short platform and the doors will open on the front 8 coaches only. Please move forward to alight at the next station. You are in coach 65 of 67.'
 

InOban

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There were famously long trains during WW2 which used the full length of the through platforms at Waverley ( then 1/19 and 10/11, now renumbered). I guess they weren't heading to KX but to Harwich? Or they were divided before they reached KX?
 

oldman

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I found these examples for Kings Cross in the RCTS green books.

An up train from Newcastle on 9/9/43 with 26 coaches and a V2 from Peterborough.
A down train for Newcastle on 5/4/40 with 25 coaches and an A4.

Passengers must have had to walk through the train to get to/from the coaches in the tunnel.
 

TwistedMentat

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It does astound me thinking of such trains being worked.

However it does look like trains have gone the same way as planes. Passengers tend to prefer frequency above most everything. So more regular smaller trains allows you to better match your journeys with your timetable. Just like we've seen with airlines. Hell, trains may have been the first to notice this through metro services.
 

BelleIsle

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Many long trains were portion workings hence only the point of origin plus possibly some junctions needed to have platforms to match. e.g. the original Atlantic Coast Express or the Caledonian Sleeper.
 

Mugby

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There was a train out of Kings Cross at the end of WW2, consisting of 23 or 24 carriages behind an A4 Pacific. It stalled in Copenhagen Tunnel and ran backwards towards the platforms with disastrous consequences.

I'm not sure of the exact date or details but perhaps someone could provide a link?
 

transmanche

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There was a train out of Kings Cross at the end of WW2, consisting of 23 or 24 carriages behind an A4 Pacific. It stalled in Copenhagen Tunnel and ran backwards towards the platforms with disastrous consequences.

I'm not sure of the exact date or details but perhaps someone could provide a link?
Most likely this incident on 4 February 1945, resulting in two deaths and 26 injuries. There were 17 carriages involved.
 

krus_aragon

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'The next station has a short platform and the doors will open on the front 8 coaches only. Please move forward to alight at the next station. You are in coach 65 of 67.'

Also: "We apologise for the use of non-corridor, non-gangwayed rolling stock on this service."

(Before 1844, third class carriages would often be open to the elements, and little more than a goods waggon!)
 
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ICE trains in Germany often run to 14 carriages with two units together. 14 or 12 carriages would certainly improve things on the ECML.

The first train to Bridlington for the opening of the line had 66 carriages.
 

greyman42

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I'd be intreagued to know how a 25 coach train would work when it reached destinations outside Kings Cross. I mean, very little of the train could have fit into smaller stations.
Back in them days, people would simply use a bit of common sense and alight and board the coaches that were on the platforms. Simple.
 

transmanche

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ICE trains in Germany often run to 14 carriages with two units together.
Similarly, TGV Réseau sets can double up and run 16 carriages together.


14 or 12 carriages would certainly improve things on the ECML.
Of course, we had 14-car trains (plus two power-cars) when GNER used the class 373/2s on its White Rose service. (Although, the carriages are only about 19m long - 4m shorter than a mark IV carriage.)
 

matt_world2004

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Victorians wouldnt have had the concept of multiple units so their train lengths would have been limited by the power of the locomotive. Which you can find out the hard way like I did by playing open ttd.
 

deltic

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In 1960s the fairly usual number of carriages on trains on WCML was 12 for Euston to Manchester, Birmingham and Liverpool

longer trains from Euston were

09.05 Windermere (13)
09.15 Liverpool (13)
10.05 Glasgow (13)
12.05 Glasgow (13)
14.05 Glasgow (13)
17.05 Carlisle (13)
17.20 Manchester (13)
18.30 Liverpool (13)
18.35 Holyhead (14)
20.20 Euston (13 or 14FO in summer)
20.55 Holyhead (14)
21.25 Inverness (14 or 15)
22.15 Glasgow (13)
23.00 Glasgow (14)
23.10 Perth (13)
23.45 Glasgow (13)

Longer trains were motorail services
19.15 Kensington to Perth load was 20 vehicles
21.50 Newcastle to Newton Abbot was 24 vehicles - 14 passenger and 10 cars
 
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