Virgin Euston to Piccadilly failed MK

[SideshowBob]

In reality, often it’s better to ask people if they’d like water rather than just handing them a bottle which they then take home and use in 3 weeks’ time. By actually asking people if they want water on a train which has been stranded / has failed air con, I’ve found only about half or two-thirds of the passengers will usually actually want it, especially if they think they’ve already had plenty to drink that day (eg. the later you get in the evening, the less fussed people seem to be...).

Fair enough. No-one's forcing them to take it. It remains entirely an individual's choice.

In reality the individual packs of water bottles are not the hardest thing to store or move anyway - the difficulty comes when trying to cradle a half-opened pack of bottles in one arm and not dropping the lot on people’s feet while you walk through a really busy carriage!

So if you can find another container, say a box, that you can fill with the bottles and subsequently carry them in that, do that? As I've said previously, just do the best you can. You will encounter more gratitude than ingratitude for doing so.

 

[tsr]

Fair enough. No-one's forcing them to take it. It remains entirely an individual's choice.



So if you can find another container, say a box, that you can fill with the bottles and subsequently carry them in that, do that? As I've said previously, just do the best you can. You will encounter more gratitude than ingratitude for doing so.

Agree on both points. You do what you can and offer assistance to people who will take it.

And indeed I have done. Unfortunately I am in an area of the country with a variety of trains with really quite awful aircon!

 

[SideshowBob]

Unfortunately I am in an area of the country with a variety of trains with really quite awful aircon!

Not to worry, it'll all be over soon. I confidently predict that, in 2-3 weeks' time, it'll start raining and not stop for a month.

 

[dk1]

Water bottles are handed out like confetti on GA. Most main stations have copious amounts to give away free & every DVT/FOD is well stocked & at least 3 cases are in each DMU driving cab throughout the summer for guards to hand out to passengers as well as a basic entitlement for us traincrew.

 

[tsr]

Water bottles are handed out like confetti on GA. Most main stations have copious amounts to give away free & every DVT/FOD is well stocked & at least 3 cases are in each DMU driving cab throughout the summer for guards to hand out to passengers as well as a basic entitlement for us traincrew.

Definitely noticed copious supplies in the DVTs. No bad thing really. A Mk3 with failed aircon is a miserable place to be. Did Paignton-Reading in one with no A/C whatsoever on a "glorious" summer's day once - never again!

 

[dk1]

Definitely noticed copious supplies in the DVTs. No bad thing really. A Mk3 with failed aircon is a miserable place to be. Did Paignton-Reading in one with no A/C whatsoever on a "glorious" summer's day once - never again!

It's not good at all. Always worries me that even if adjacent vehicles are fine with available seats people often refuse to move for some far away reason. Always comical to pass through this coach watching them wilt through stupidity.

Surprised me to hear some TOCs label it as 'Emergency Use Only'

 

[Darandio]

Not to worry, it'll all be over soon. I confidently predict that, in 2-3 weeks' time, it'll start raining and not stop for a month.

And not long after that it will become very cold again and inevitably trains will become stranded. I assume you want Bovril and blankets distributed to multiple locations around the country for that as well?

 

[SideshowBob]

And not long after that it will become very cold again and inevitably trains will become stranded. I assume you want Bovril and blankets distributed to multiple locations around the country for that as well?

Not multiple locations...just start with your usual stations plus maybe one or two others...!!

Water bottles are handed out like confetti on GA. Most main stations have copious amounts to give away free & every DVT/FOD is well stocked & at least 3 cases are in each DMU driving cab throughout the summer for guards to hand out to passengers as well as a basic entitlement for us traincrew.

Hope springs eternal! Mighty oaks from little acorns grow!

Seriously though, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Leaving aside punctuality and reliability for a moment, this is what people want when it's more thrash metal than Spandau - some kind of sign that someone's able to get them some water when they're stuck on a horribly crowded and delayed train on a baking hot day with the air-con having packed in.

If we can get to the moon...

 

[DarloRich]

Seriously though, this is exactly what I'm talking about. Leaving aside punctuality and reliability for a moment, this is what people want when it's more thrash metal than Spandau - some kind of sign that someone's able to get them some water when they're stuck on a horribly crowded and delayed train on a baking hot day with the air-con having packed in.

that is fine but how do you get the water to those who need it most - those stuck on a train between stations?

 

[All Line Rover]

What class of train broke down yesterday evening between Watford and Milton Keynes? And why, on a four track railway with a timetable which phases out in the late evening, and with National Rail Enquiries claiming delays of "up to 30 minutes", was the broken down train leading to delays of up to 1.5 hours on both Virgin and LNWR services, even for those departing Euston on time? For example, the 22.00 Euston to Crewe departed Euston on time, yet took 1h 40m to reach Milton Keynes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In the evening a 2 track timetable is operated - I guess work was taking place on the other 2 so nothing could get past.

 

[SideshowBob]

that is fine but how do you get the water to those who need it most - those stuck on a train between stations?

You don't, and for what I hope are obvious reasons, I've never suggested that you should try. You stock the train up with as much water as you can at its starting station (especially if you already know some of the air-con is out of action at that point), and you re-stock it as best you can en route.

At an early stage in this discussion, I did say:

I accept that there needs to be some element of personal responsibility on passengers' part...

And I stand by that. The railway clearly cannot work as a "nanny" to its passengers; that would be beyond ridiculous, but railway passengers are now legally entitled to some level of "reasonable care and skill" being demonstrated in the delivery of the services that the railway purports to offer, and I would argue that having some kind of contingency plan for looking after its passengers during temporary (and, most likely, quite short) periods of, by UK standards, very hot weather when those passengers are travelling long distances on heavily delayed trains with dodgy air-con and sealed windows comes under that. It strikes me that delivering extra supplies of bottled water to selected mainline railway stations to deliver to the trains when they call at those stations would be an easy way of achieving that. I am surprised at the level of difficulty that would apparently be encountered in doing so. But I do not accept these protestations of difficulty as valid excuses, my lack of expertise in the field of logistics notwithstanding. It needs to be made to happen.

You can't get water to a train stranded between stations, certainly not without great difficulty. Unless the train was likely to be trapped for an extended period (say 12 hours or longer), you wouldn't dream of trying. You'd stay out of the way of a Thunderbird, or whatever. There wouldn't be an easy way of getting supplies of food and drink to large numbers of stranded motorists, either. At some point, there has to be some level of personal responsibility on the passengers' own behalf. But it must be borne in mind that rail passengers often include those for whom driving is not an option - children, the elderly, and those with certain disabilities or medical conditions, for example.

But at a very basic level, if the railway in general, and the TOCs in particular care a jot about their reputations, they need, in my view, to take steps to manage periods of significant disruption better than they currently do, and do so visibly. As fares go up, people's willingness to tolerate ignorance and high-handedness from the railway will go down; quite rightly, in my view. We saw it last winter with iced-up electrified third rails in South London - another major faux pas on the part of the railway during which there was no sign whatsoever to passengers that the railway was anywhere near having its act together in terms of dealing with the situation.

If the railway wants to maintain and increase its passenger numbers and the feedback scores provided by those passengers, it needs to up its customer service game. Licks of paint on the outsides of carriages and new carpets inside them won't cut the mustard on their own.

 

[Aictos]

Another thing to consider is there isn't going to be a fleet of coaches just standing by waiting for the railway to go into disruption mode especially at 2300 at night!

 

[DarloRich]

"reasonable care and skill"

such as getting them to their destination safely and in one piece?

But at a very basic level, if the railway in general, and the TOCs in particular care a jot about their reputations, they need, in my view, to take steps to manage periods of significant disruption better than they currently do, and do so visibly. As fares go up, people's willingness to tolerate ignorance and high-handedness from the railway will go down; quite rightly, in my view. We saw it last winter with iced-up electrified third rails in South London - another major faux pas on the part of the railway during which there was no sign whatsoever to passengers that the railway was anywhere near having its act together in terms of dealing with the situation.

If the railway wants to maintain and increase its passenger numbers and the feedback scores provided by those passengers, it needs to up its customer service game. Licks of paint on the outsides of carriages and new carpets inside them won't cut the mustard on their own.

I agree in part. Things do need to improve. Communications need to be better. However customers also need to have realistic expectations of service recovery and what information is available.

The main issue is the situation during disruption is changeable as investigations reveal the true fault. It isnt easy and it isnt quick when things go wrong. Posters here ( and passengers ) have never had to deal with situations like that and do not have a clue. People seem to expect there to be a magic wand that can fix things instantly and give them a precise number of minutes until the train moves. The world isnt like that.

Problems take time to identify and fix, the site is often long and contains more than one fault, the real problem site has to be found ( it often isnt the train) it takes time to get isolations and line blocks, it takes people time to mobilise & get to site, it takes time to plan accessing the site safely often with trains still running on other lines, it takes time to get equipment and materials to site and then it takes time to get from the nearest access point to the fault location carrying all of your kit. That is elongated when you are having to call people out from home. None of this time is a fixed certainty. THEN you have to fix the bloody problem. That takes as long as it takes. Then you have to get all the equipment and people off the site and make sure the line is fit to open.

People are working, often in very testing conditions, to fix things as quickly and, more importantly, as safely as possible. It isnt easy or quick. That needs to be remembered.

 

[SideshowBob]

Another thing to consider is there isn't going to be a fleet of coaches just standing by waiting for the railway to go into disruption mode especially at 2300 at night!

No, but there might be a Thunderbird loco. Or a rescue train which can pull up alongside. Different problems will require different solutions, but neither of these two examples is unheard of or unprecedented.

such as getting them to their destination safely and in one piece?

Yes. That's arguably "Reasonable Care and Skill 101". But so too, arguably, is not expecting people to travel long distances on heavily delayed and overcrowded trains with sealed windows and the air-con having packed in, and there being no way of getting bottled water on to the train at a mainline station.

I agree in part. Things do need to improve. Communications need to be better. However customers also need to have realistic expectations of service recovery and what information is available.

The main issue is the situation during disruption is changeable as investigations reveal the true fault. It isnt easy and it isnt quick when things go wrong. Posters here ( and passengers ) have never had to deal with situations like that and do not have a clue. People seem to expect there to be a magic wand that can fix things instantly and give them a precise number of minutes until the train moves. The world isnt like that.

How do you know that? This is the case in many lines of work, including mine. Perhaps if the railway was a bit more open and communicative, a bit more straightforward and a bit more honest, passengers would have more sympathy with it.

Problems take time to identify and fix, the site is often long and contains more than one fault, the real problem site has to be found ( it often isnt the train) it takes time to get isolations and line blocks, it takes people time to mobilise & get to site, it takes time to plan accessing the site safely often with trains still running on other lines, it takes time to get equipment and materials to site and then it takes time to get from the nearest access point to the fault location carrying all of your kit. That is elongated when you are having to call people out from home. None of this time is a fixed certainty. THEN you have to fix the bloody problem. That takes as long as it takes. Then you have to get all the equipment and people off the site and make sure the line is fit to open.

People are working, often in very testing conditions, to fix things as quickly and, more importantly, as safely as possible. It isnt easy or quick. That needs to be remembered.

It does, and I agree with this in part. However, the railway's inability to communicate clearly and accurately is the railway's problem, not the passengers'. This cuts both ways. If the railway is happy to pursue people through the courts for tiny sums of money; if it is prepared to charge them large amounts of extra money for making small mistakes e.g. by boarding the wrong train or using the wrong operator; and if it is prepared to make lame excuses about logistical lead times instead of just getting some bottled water on to a heavily delayed and overcrowded train on a baking hot day with sealed windows and no air-con, and generally carry on with its power-tripping and control-freakery, then it needs to stop wondering why the people who pay (often handsomely) to use it gradually become less and less prepared to cut it the kind of slack it seems to want when things go wrong.

 

[driver_m]

Right.. let's get this long winded stuff about water nipped in the bud. Emergency supplies of water are carried on VT. Always have been .They're in what's called the Teddy Bear cupboard with other emergency provisions. There's usually also a hefty supply of water bottles near the kitchen too. Any train with passengers stood in the vestibules will have trouble with the air con as there isnt any there. It's confined to the saloons, and the cabs/kitchen.

 

[SideshowBob]

Right.. let's get this long winded stuff about water nipped in the bud. Emergency supplies of water are carried on VT. Always have been .They're in what's called the Teddy Bear cupboard with other emergency provisions. There's usually also a hefty supply of water bottles near the kitchen too. Any train with passengers stood in the vestibules will have trouble with the air con as there isnt any there. It's confined to the saloons, and the cabs/kitchen.

That's good to know.

And unless either you or anyone else is able to shed any light on why it appears to be beyond the wit of humankind to make arrangements for that water to be replenished en route on a severely delayed and overcrowded train, in very warm weather, and with knackered air-con and sealed windows, in a first world country in the 21st century, with the distinct possibility of that train carrying a number of vulnerable passengers among its loading, then I am happy to concede that there is nothing further to be gained from perpetuating this discussion at the present time.

I am grateful for all contributions. It's been fascinating.

 

[mmh]

If you've had that sort of experience I'm sure nobody would defend it, but the poster didn't have similar. Their train was an hour late, which isn't great by any means, but they also said the customer service was excellent.

 

[SideshowBob]

True, although I did have something similar travelling Glasgow to Manchester via Preston about a fortnight ago when a signal failure and a lineside fire between Carlisle and Oxenholme wrecked everything between Scotland and Manchester for the rest of the day. I got there 135 late. It could have been worse, but it wasnt pleasant.

Yes - my apologies to the OP for having caused this thread to be consumed by my original rant - I hadn't anticipated such a long and detailed discussion subsequently taking place. Lesson learned!

 

[Hadders]

That's good to know.

And unless either you or anyone else is able to shed any light on why it appears to be beyond the wit of humankind to make arrangements for that water to be replenished en route on a severely delayed and overcrowded train, in very warm weather, and with knackered air-con and sealed windows, in a first world country in the 21st century, with the distinct possibility of that train carrying a number of vulnerable passengers among its loading, then I am happy to concede that there is nothing further to be gained from perpetuating this discussion at the present time.

I am grateful for all contributions. It's been fascinating.

I eluded to some of the reasons why water couldn't be replenished en-route earlier in the thread......

 

[DarloRich]

And unless either you or anyone else is able to shed any light on why it appears to be beyond the wit of humankind to make arrangements for that water to be replenished en route on a severely delayed and overcrowded train,

there has been information in this thread. It seems you don't like it so have ignored it. It isnt as simple a process as you believe. Posters have pointed out why it might be harder than you suggest to do this "simple" act in a fragmented and heavily contract and regulation governed railway industry. On the other hand it could all just be lazy, incompetent railway people not giving a stuff about passengers.......................

I eluded to some of the reasons why water couldn't be replenished en-route earlier in the thread......

the biggest thing for me is how much water to hold. Take MKC at rush hour. One train every couple of minutes in both directions. That is a lot of water to hold for a lot of passengers! How do we decide which passengers get the water? Premier Virgin passengers or £5 scum on LNWR? Does the first train in get all the water or is it held for the most delayed train?

 

[SideshowBob]

there has been information in this thread. It seems you don't like it so have ignored it.

I've had very little truck with much of what you've said, because you've talked so much childish nonsense. For example:

On the other hand it could all just be lazy, incompetent railway people not giving a stuff about passengers.......................

How do we decide which passengers get the water? Premier Virgin passengers or £5 scum on LNWR?

At no stage have I said anything so ridiculous, or anything even close to it. I've stuck to my guns, and tried to get to the bottom of why something that I think should be easy is apparently so difficult. That's all I've been told. Unless I've missed something, no-one so far has suggested any solutions to the problem I've raised.

If you want to have a sensible discussion, have one. Or don't. In your case, I'm past caring.

 

[Deafdoggie]

I've stuck to my guns, and tried to get to the bottom of why something that I think should be easy is apparently so difficult. That's all I've been told. Unless I've missed something, no-one so far has suggested any solutions to the problem I've raised.

The above issues have been raised as to why it isn't done:-
1) There is no where to store this sheer volume of water at virtually every station.
2) There is no way to replenish trains that are stranded but not at stations.
3) Trains are (often) stocked with water, but when it is gone it is gone, yet you want it replenished, as you have been on trains and not been offered any.
4) If air-con on a train is broken, the alternative is to cancel the train, thus increasing overcrowding on the next. Therefore trains do still run even if air-con is faulty.
5) There is a cost to this, who pays that cost?

Please provide your solutions to these problems, as you claim it to be so simple and all dedicated and professional logistics providers can't resolve them, we are all very interested in your solutions, it could revolutionise the logistics industry. Many self-proclaimed experts bemoan the logistics industry for the empty miles lorries travel. If you can provide a solution to that too you'll save businesses millions of pounds a week, but so far no one else has a solution to that either.

 

[SideshowBob]

The above issues have been raised as to why it isn't done:-
1) There is no where to store this sheer volume of water at virtually every station.
2) There is no way to replenish trains that are stranded but not at stations.
3) Trains are (often) stocked with water, but when it is gone it is gone, yet you want it replenished, as you have been on trains and not been offered any.
4) If air-con on a train is broken, the alternative is to cancel the train, thus increasing overcrowding on the next. Therefore trains do still run even if air-con is faulty.
5) There is a cost to this, who pays that cost?

Please provide your solutions to these problems, as you claim it to be so simple and all dedicated and professional logistics providers can't resolve them, we are all very interested in your solutions, it could revolutionise the logistics industry. Many self-proclaimed experts bemoan the logistics industry for the empty miles lorries travel. If you can provide a solution to that too you'll save businesses millions of pounds a week, but so far no one else has a solution to that either.

I've tried. I started with this:

Keep an eye on how fast your stocks are dwindling, and with the resources available, respond as best you can.



Not necessarily; start with the ones where you usually supply replenished stocks of food and drink to trains, but be ready where necessary to provide stocks of a particular item - bottled water, in this case - at one or two other locations in addition to this, where this is viable and practical.



I don't know, that would depend on how in-demand a particular item - in this case, bottled water - might be, and what kind of storage space you have available, and the capacity of said storage space. Where possible, keep an eye on demand, and respond accordingly. Store it where you normally store it, and make use of any appropriate alternative/overflow storage space you might have available, either at your normal station or, where possible, also one or two alternative ones at which trains will also be stopping, for the temporary period of time required.



The same way you normally do, with the job carried out by the people who normally do, plus other people willing and able to give them a hand if required - ideally, these would be immediate departmental colleagues doing some overtime (an extra hour or two at the start/end of a shift, or extra staff on the same shift, perhaps) - but only if you have sufficiently good industrial relations and team spirit, and can do this within the bounds of relevant legislation.

Required training can be incorporated into your normal, routine on-the-job training, and/or made part of your job induction process. Refreshed at regular intervals. All part of what I said about anticipating unfortunate turns of events, and being ready for them. Plenty of other industries do this.



I don't know; that would depend on what stage they were at with their normal workload and routine. Check, and respond accordingly.



This has not been part of the discussion so far, and I have never suggested that anything like this should be attempted. My point was, is, and is likely to remain being that supplies of water be made available at stations to be delivered to trains once said trains reached those stations, and to do the best you can within the resources you have available plus any extra resources upon which you might be able to call, to look after your passengers as best you can, with as cheery a disposition as you can muster. And be as visible as you possibly can whilst doing it, as part of a genuine effort to look after your passengers and give as positive an impression of the railway in general, and your organisation within it in particular, as you can to them.



Either sell it at a reduced price, or donate it to your local foodbank, homeless charity or women's refuge.



With a bit of imagination, motivation and good leadership skills, I see no reason why it couldn't be that simple.

I know half of that conversation is missing, but you can find it all in post #21. I've grudgingly come to accept that this is a problem that can't be solved overnight. I find it very frustrating. I'm not good at taking "no" for an answer. Such an attitude is common among those who work in theatre and other parts of the entertainment/creative industries.

If I've come over as excessively unreasonable, I apologise. I wasn't expecting to be quite so quickly and vociferously shot down, yet I have previously acknowledged that my initial post on this thread could have been worded better.

I'm very much still open to further ideas and contributions. Despite my grumbling, I have found this to have been an enlightening discussion so far.

 

[DarloRich]

I've had very little truck with much of what you've said, because you've talked so much childish nonsense. For example:

Sorry you don't like a direct criticism of your "simple" idea or your unwillingness to listen to people who have knowledge in this area. It has been explained why it isnt, quite, as simple as you like to think. However, you have dismissed those issues as inconsequential when in fact they are the crux of the issue.

At no stage have I said anything so ridiculous, or anything even close to it. I've stuck to my guns, and tried to get to the bottom of why something that I think should be easy is apparently so difficult. That's all I've been told. Unless I've missed something, no-one so far has suggested any solutions to the problem I've raised.

If you want to have a sensible discussion, have one. Or don't. In your case, I'm past caring.

The problem is that you refuse to accept it isnt an easy fix, no matter how much you wish that it was. You haven't answered very obvious questions: How much water to hold and who gets it.

I make the point again: MKC ( a busy regional station) at rush hour sees trains from 2 or 3 TOC's arriving every few minutes. How do you supply all of these people? How do you hold enough stock at the station? Who decides which passengers get the water?

Using MKC as an example. There are three Toc's. Assuming all they offer water to delayed passengers on a hot day that means three of everything. Three supply contracts, three distribution chains, three storage areas, three contact management systems, three sets of staff to distribute the water ( one of whom have no staff at the station) etc etc.

Unless you suggest NR should pay for the water. If so how do they cross charge the TOC's for the supply? Is there a mark up? Is it at cost? Do they pass on the contractual changes to their distribution contract? How does this change meet the managing public money requirements? Do they store vast amounts of water in a central distribution centre or buy it just in time?

In an ideal world the TOC's would work together. Sadly we don't live in the ideal world and they wont, easily, collaborate. The complex contact, legal and regulatory way in which our railways operate makes what on the face of it seems simple very difficult. That is the truth of the situation and no amount of no accepting no for an answer wont fix that sadly.

 

[Deafdoggie]

The best is being done, but every train can't have enough water for everyone at all times. Virgin had a charity giving out water at its stations the other day, I had a bottle at Crewe. That might have to be a compromise, that the stations have volunteers giving it out, but again, it is only "whilst stocks last" if you aren't there at the right time-or even the right part of the station-you would not know it's there.

Most discussions on here are about how little luggage and bike space trains have, filling the space with water isn't going to please many people I am afraid. You might want water, but not everyone does. Not being able to get on a train because it has been filled with water will not win many friends

 

[SideshowBob]

Sorry you don't like a direct criticism of your "simple" idea or your unwillingness to listen to people who have knowledge in this area. It has been explained why it isnt, quite, as simple as you like to think. However, you have dismissed those issues as inconsequential when in fact they are the crux of the issue.

Lol.

The problem is that you refuse to accept it isnt an easy fix, no matter how much you wish that it was. You haven't answered very obvious questions: How much water to hold and who gets it.

I make the point again: MKC ( a busy regional station) at rush hour sees trains from 2 or 3 TOC's arriving every few minutes. How do you supply all of these people?

The same way you do now, just with more of it.

How do you hold enough stock at the station?

Don't know, never been, don't know what it's like there. Therefore, can't answer that.

Who decides which passengers get the water?

No-one arbitrarily "decides" anything. It's offered to as many people as possible. Those among them that want it, will take it.

Using MKC as an example. There are three Toc's. Assuming all they offer water to delayed passengers on a hot day that means three of everything. Three supply contracts, three distribution chains, three storage areas, three contact management systems, three sets of staff to distribute the water ( one of whom have no staff at the station) etc etc.

Really?! I thought privatisation was meant to make things more efficient, rather than less! Why can't they just work together, for everyone's benefit?

Unless you suggest NR should pay for the water. If so how do they cross charge the TOC's for the supply? Is there a mark up? Is it at cost? Do they pass on the contractual changes to their distribution contract? How does this change meet the managing public money requirements?

I've said previously that the TOCs should pay for it. Perhaps they could spare a bit of the unclaimed Delay Repay money that they otherwise get to keep. If there are several of them operating out of one particular station, perhaps they could all chip in, and divvy up percentages according to what percentage of their services operate from the station?

Do they store vast amounts of water in a central distribution centre or buy it just in time?

I think my previous answers point towards "just in time" as being my answer to this, rightly or wrongly.

In an ideal world the TOC's would work together. Sadly we don't live in the ideal world and they wont, easily, collaborate. The complex contact, legal and regulatory way in which our railways operate makes what on the face of it seems simple very difficult. That is the truth of the situation and no amount of no accepting no for an answer wont fix that sadly.

If that's not a compelling argument for nationalisation, I don't know what is.

In the meantime, perhaps a simpler solution to all of this would be a temporarily larger allocation of relevant maintenance budgets towards air-con maintenance (with appropriate levels of Zen...)

 

[driver_m]

That's good to know.

And unless either you or anyone else is able to shed any light on why it appears to be beyond the wit of humankind to make arrangements for that water to be replenished en route on a severely delayed and overcrowded train, in very warm weather, and with knackered air-con and sealed windows, in a first world country in the 21st century, with the distinct possibility of that train carrying a number of vulnerable passengers among its loading, then I am happy to concede that there is nothing further to be gained from perpetuating this discussion at the present time.

I am grateful for all contributions. It's been fascinating.

Water can usually be placed on board at locations where DHL are able to put it on. Such as Euston, Crewe, Wolves, Preston, Liverpool and Manchester, Glasgow, Edinburgh and Holyhead. That usually covers all bases and the trains rarely run out of water. Should the emergency stock get used up, the Catering crew usually sort it out there and then. Milton Keynes won't have that facility as we don't terminate there. You'd have someone sat there doing nothing all day and the other stuff just sitting doing nothing in a place that would need hiring out which costs money and is pointless. Can't you just put it down to extreme weather. Not like this happens often..