Virgin Plans Extra Liverpool Lime Street Services from 10 June 2019

[frodshamfella]

Preston already has two trains per hour to Euston. Running the additional Liverpool via Warrington would mean that the fast Euston-Glasgow could omit Warrington creating more space on those trains and a slightly faster journey time. A stop at either St.Helens Junction or Lea Green on the Liverpool via Warrington service would also provide the metropolitan borough of St.Helens (which, at 179'000 has a much greater population than Preston's 122'000) with a service to London.

I think quite a lot of people from St Helens region would travel to Warrington to catch a London train, so it would be handy. But either way I do agree Liverpool should have more London services, it's a busy route.

 

[notlob.divad]

3 points to make.

Firstly is the increase in frequency going to mean more 9 car pendolinos on Liverpool journeys. Currently I think VT aim for 11 cars on them all. Would that then leave more scope for 11 cars elsewhere.

As for Crewe, I don't think it needs more stops on London services to improve connectivity to/from the north. What is really needed is local services, so a Crewe - Preston all stops (possibly via the Earlestown and Newton-Le-Willows) loop. This would solve not only the Crewe connectivity but would provide for Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge to Warrington as well as relieving some of the Preston-Wigan-Warrington capacity issues already mentioned on this thread.

3, However much I would love these extra services to call at St. Helens via Warrington, I have resigned myself to it not happening, ever. There are too many vested interests in keeping city to city journey times to a minimum for places like St helens to get a look in on any of the crumbs from the table. (Just look at the TPE Liverpool-Glasgow farce). St Helens is destined to be a deprived town and the decision makers will do everything they can to ensure it happens

 

[Bletchleyite]

Firstly is the increase in frequency going to mean more 9 car pendolinos on Liverpool journeys. Currently I think VT aim for 11 cars on them all. Would that then leave more scope for 11 cars elsewhere.

It occurred to me that with an increased frequency this may actually be a better place for 5-car Voyagers than the via Brum services if demand is indeed low during the day.

 

[dk1]

Noting the departure times of some of these proposed new services, I was on a "middle of the day" Liverpool - Euston service today and it was half empty in both classes.

Wednesday in February so I'd say understandable really. Frequency lift will help.

 

[AndrewE]

As for Crewe, I don't think it needs more stops on London services to improve connectivity to/from the north. What is really needed is local services, so a Crewe - Preston all stops (possibly via the Reflection and Newton-Le-Willows) loop. This would solve not only the Crewe connectivity but would provide for Winsford, Hartford and Acton Bridge to Warrington as well as relieving some of the Preston-Wigan-Warrington capacity issues already mentioned on this thread.

You don't think Shrewsbury and Stoke (and Crewe) need a better Intercity service northbound then? I take it you haven't tried to use the service much. A stopper to Preston isn't much of an upgrade on Glasgow or Edinburgh alternate hours only. The local services are pretty good, apart from the service to smaller stations en route to Liverpool.
If you are going to either of the 2 big Scottish cities, and especially if travelling beyond beyond, you don't want to waste time by setting off down a main line on a train that stops at every gatepost, especially if you have connected into it off the stopper from Derby or Salop.

 

[Class 170101]

You are overlooking the major weakness in the current WCML Anglo-Scottish timetable. The only northbound trains that call at Crewe are the hourly services from Euston via Birmingham which run alternately to Glasgow and Edinburgh. (The Crewe calls on the other trains were removed to address complaints of overcrowding!) Hence the service north for people connecting in from the Welsh borders and Shrewsbury and from the Stoke direction relies on trains that are already full from the West Midlands (and all the connections at New St)

In the case of the Welsh Borders and Shrewsbury would you not change for Scotland at Warrington Bank Quay instead? The Cardiff to Manchester travels via Newport, Hereford, Shrewsbury and Chester to reach Warrington Bank Quay does it not?

 

[AndrewE]

In the case of the Welsh Borders and Shrewsbury would you not change for Scotland at Warrington Bank Quay instead? The Cardiff to Manchester travels via Newport, Hereford, Shrewsbury and Chester to reach Warrington Bank Quay does it not?

I'm afraid (actually very glad) that it doesn't. The service has been Cardiff - Crewe for decades, now running from Swansea or further west to Manchester via Crewe. I suppose you could waste time by changing additionally at Shrewsbury and Chester and Warrington if you wanted...

 

[Class 170101]

I'm afraid (actually very glad) that it doesn't. The service has been Cardiff - Crewe for decades, now running from Swansea or further west to Manchester via Crewe. I suppose you could waste time by changing additionally at Shrewsbury and Chester and Warrington if you wanted...

In that case its the other service group North Wales Coast to Mancester then where changing at Warrington Bank Quay is possible.

 

[AndrewE]

In that case its the other service group North Wales Coast to Mancester then where changing at Warrington Bank Quay is possible.

It is, but it doesn't help people feeding in to the WCML at Crewe, who have nothing but the hourly northbound class 9 train...
When I travel north there are always far more people on the platform at Crewe than at Warrington, even in the case that it is the same alternate-hour train to Edinburgh, the only WCML service to that destination. (I know that Warrington has an additional hourly train to Glasgow, which Crewe doesn't!)

 

[sonic2009]

I don't think the VT could overtake at Liverpool South Parkway, there would be an EMT in Platform 2 at xx15, and I don't think all platforms are bi-directional.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think quite a lot of people from St Helens region would travel to Warrington to catch a London train, so it would be handy. But either way I do agree Liverpool should have more London services, it's a busy route.

The Lime St-Warrington BQ service (4-car 319) is usually spectacularly empty from Earlestown.
It doesn't help that the peak trains go to Manchester Victoria instead (though there are TfW connections).
The connections to/from London/Birmingham at Warrington are very poor too (the TfW connections are rather better).
Changing at Wigan is probably a better bet from St Helens.

 

[Bevan Price]

I think quite a lot of people from St Helens region would travel to Warrington to catch a London train, so it would be handy. But either way I do agree Liverpool should have more London services, it's a busy route.

People from St. Helens getting "down south" using public transport mostly go via Liverpool. Very few would go via Warrington, although that might increase a bit IF they ever reopen St. Helens to St. Helens Junction.
Some of those who drive to a station might use Warrington, although Runcorn may be more attractive for others.

 

[Statto]

I don't think the VT could overtake at Liverpool South Parkway, there would be an EMT in Platform 2 at xx15, and I don't think all platforms are bi-directional.

It's 4 track through Liverpool South Parkway, 4 track from Speke Junction to just before Edge Hill depot, quite often one of the CLC stoppers goes on the slows through West Allerton & Mossley Hill to allow a Pendo through on the fasts, some LM/LNW Birmingham mostly southbound trains do use the slow line at Liverpool South Parkway as well.

 

[Trainfan344]

Using the current timings, A 390 is booked 8 minutes from Liverpool Street to South Parkway pass, which puts it through 2 minutes behind the 350. Up to Crewe behind the 350, into P5 then follow the 350 until it switches to the slows before Stafford.

 

[janb]

I thought they turned round at Carnforth currently? In the loops just south of the station?

Yes that's what the current 5C31/9A31 service does.

 

[frodshamfella]

People from St. Helens getting "down south" using public transport mostly go via Liverpool. Very few would go via Warrington, although that might increase a bit IF they ever reopen St. Helens to St. Helens Junction.
Some of those who drive to a station might use Warrington, although Runcorn may be more attractive for others.

Yes I meant those who drive. I have friends in Rainford who drive to Warrington BQ ( or Runcorn ) . Mind you Warrington traffic is pretty awful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I meant those who drive. I have friends in Rainford who drive to Warrington BQ ( or Runcorn ) . Mind you Warrington traffic is pretty awful.

Unless it's cheaper to go the other way, the best reason for going via Liverpool is that you board at the terminus - much more civilised and first pick of seats.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's 4 track through Liverpool South Parkway, 4 track from Speke Junction to just before Edge Hill depot, quite often one of the CLC stoppers goes on the slows through West Allerton & Mossley Hill to allow a Pendo through on the fasts, some LM/LNW Birmingham mostly southbound trains do use the slow line at Liverpool South Parkway as well.

That used to happen quite a bit, but currently I think all the LNR services use the fasts, and so will the new Chester service according to RTT.
Being turned on the slow is a pain with the slow crossovers at Wavertree and Speke, plus the inevitable conflict time.

 

[frodshamfella]

Unless it's cheaper to go the other way, the best reason for going via Liverpool is that you board at the terminus - much more civilised and first pick of seats.

These people l know are not really public transport people, did suggest they go from Rainford Station , they have never used it due to perceived poor service, unfortunately they are right I read an article in Liverpool Echo not so long ago about a commuter traveling into the city centre from a station on that Wigan to Rainford line, may have been upholland and how often the services are late or cancelled .

 

[Bletchleyite]

These people l know are not really public transport people, did suggest they go from Rainford Station , they have never used it due to perceived poor service, unfortunately they are right I read an article in Liverpool Echo not so long ago about a commuter traveling into the city centre from a station on that Wigan to Rainford line, may have been upholland and how often the services are late or cancelled .

The lack of an evening service up there (which was withdrawn by BR due to antisocial behaviour issues in the 1980s and never came back) would also be a factor.

 

[krus_aragon]

In that case its the other service group North Wales Coast to Mancester then where changing at Warrington Bank Quay is possible.

Correct.

For stations west of Llandudno Jn, the route via Crewe is currently most offered by journey planners, because all but a few Manchester/Warrington services terminate at Llandudno. When the new TfW timetable diverts these to Bangor, most of the coast will have a direct service to Warrington BQ.

 

[frodshamfella]

The lack of an evening service up there (which was withdrawn by BR due to antisocial behaviour issues in the 1980s and never came back) would also be a factor.

Yes very true, it does finish early, plus I believe lack of car parking.

 

[driver_m]

Signalbox at Rainford Jn was ran on a single shift. Was supposed to be getting took over by Wallgate Box at Wigan. Did anything come of it? Obvs the service could run to a much better time with a 24hr box watching over the track.

 

[childwallblues]

In the case of the Welsh Borders and Shrewsbury would you not change for Scotland at Warrington Bank Quay instead? The Cardiff to Manchester travels via Newport, Hereford, Shrewsbury and Chester to reach Warrington Bank Quay does it not?

Does not go to Warrington Bank Quay.

 

[childwallblues]

It's 4 track through Liverpool South Parkway, 4 track from Speke Junction to just before Edge Hill depot, quite often one of the CLC stoppers goes on the slows through West Allerton & Mossley Hill to allow a Pendo through on the fasts, some LM/LNW Birmingham mostly southbound trains do use the slow line at Liverpool South Parkway as well.

Four track is from Ditton Junction to Wavertree Junction.

 

[notlob.divad]

That used to happen quite a bit, but currently I think all the LNR services use the fasts, and so will the new Chester service according to RTT.
Being turned on the slow is a pain with the slow crossovers at Wavertree and Speke, plus the inevitable conflict time.

Currently:
There appears to be one service a day timetabled to use Platform 3 instead of Platform 1. this being the 2245 from Liverpool to Crewe.
It appears to use 3 because at the same time a Northern ECS move is passing through 1 to enter Allerton Depot.
The use of platform 3 at South Parkway appears to result in a 3 minute time penalty between Lime Street and Runcorn.

In the current version of the May timetable this move does not exist, (but then barely any Northern services have been added yet). There also appears to be the addition of a daily West Midlands Trains ECS move through Platform 4 at South Parkway, which is interesting (well to me at least).

 

[nuneatonmark]

Two thoughts. Firstly, this could be a tactic by Virgin to restrict any possibility of GNWR expanding their services in the future. Also why stop at Stafford? It’s already well served, why not Nuneaton, Milton Keynes or even Rugby?

 

[dk1]

Two thoughts. Firstly, this could be a tactic by Virgin to restrict any possibility of GNWR expanding their services in the future. Also why stop at Stafford? It’s already well served, why not Nuneaton, Milton Keynes or even Rugby?

Makes perfect sense for Virgin to do that. I think chief planner will put you right on here as to the stopping pattern and the why nots. Very difficult to flight everything the further south you get on the WCML.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Also why stop at Stafford? It’s already well served, why not Nuneaton, Milton Keynes or even Rugby?

Probably because they would fail the non-primary abstructive test considering GNWR will call at Milton Keynes and Nuneaton.

 

[driver_m]

The recent signalling changes at Speke and Allerton have added flashing yellows in a couple of locations, which should help to potentially improve some timings. Though bizarrely, not for the most commonly used junction going from LSP towards Hunts Cross, even if it is only 20mph. (There's one at Kidsgrove which is 15mph and still has flashers) They apply to the 40mph crossovers North of LSP and crossing fast to slow on the up at Speke. One barrier to using the down slow though are the heavy permanent restrictions in two locations of 30mph. One at Hale Bank and the other just north of West Allerton station. Single lead at Edge Hill on and off the slows is a nuisance too. Needs doubling.