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Virgin Plans Extra Liverpool Lime Street Services from 10 June 2019

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nuneatonmark

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Seat reservations were abolished on all LM routes (having been introduced near the start of that TOC's tenure; Silverlink never had them) because the turnarounds at Euston are not adequate to reliably place them and so with the large number of commuters etc they were causing arguments. If there is one thing that is worse than no seat reservations, it's ones you cannot rely on to be placed.

They therefore are very unlikely to make a return.

Not necessarily true, LNR have said on a number of occasions that the new stock will have the capability for electronic seat reservations. Whether or not it ends up being used we’ll have to see.
 
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Deafdoggie

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Not necessarily true, LNR have said on a number of occasions that the new stock will have the capability for electronic seat reservations. Whether or not it ends up being used we’ll have to see.

What can possibly go wrong?
 

Bletchleyite

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Not necessarily true, LNR have said on a number of occasions that the new stock will have the capability for electronic seat reservations. Whether or not it ends up being used we’ll have to see.

The new stock is not going to be used on the Trent Valley services, that is going to be 8-car Class 350s.
 

Bletchleyite

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Commuter complaining was the biggest factor before.

The complaints were totally reasonable (some came from me), and they stemmed from the fact that the reservations were not being placed before boarding started, because the turnarounds were too tight to do it reliably, and they were only printed at Euston so it couldn't be done on the inbound service. Therefore there were repeated arguments.

Electronic reservations would solve that, though.
 

sufian123

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The complaints were totally reasonable (some came from me), and they stemmed from the fact that the reservations were not being placed before boarding started, because the turnarounds were too tight to do it reliably, and they were only printed at Euston so it couldn't be done on the inbound service. Therefore there were repeated arguments.

Electronic reservations would solve that, though.

Yup. I hope so. Let’s hope for best
 

The Ham

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pt_mad

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I do wonder if these extra services have something to do with the fact that since 2009 passenger numbers between the North West and London have gone up by 70%:

http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/af0a338f-cb90-4b8a-b413-403d5c917857

To put this in some sort of perspective; using the HS2 model for passenger growth it should be about 25% by now, 70% would be around 2030 (or getting close to phase 2 opening).

I think you may have fully justified HS2 right there. A compelling stat if ever I saw one.
 

krus_aragon

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Would four to six tracking of the WCML be a cheaper option than HS2 ?
Unlikely. Adding two new tracks alongside a full, busy railway would be a slow, complicated task. Think of how long (and how painful for travellers) the last West Coast Upgrade was.

If you decide to build the extra tracks away from the WCML, to avoid disrupting the existing traffic, well that's effectively what HS2 is.
 

The Ham

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Would four to six tracking of the WCML be a cheaper option than HS2 ?

As others have said, no it wouldn't.

HS2 avoids a lot of built up areas like Milton Keynes, Rugby, Coventry, etc. In doing so it avoids having to buy lots of buildings and mostly uses farmland, the latter being a lot cheaper.
 

The Ham

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I think you may have fully justified HS2 right there. A compelling stat if ever I saw one.

The table below shows rail growth between the regions set to benefit from HS2.

In the period covered growth should have been 22% and by phase 1 opening growth was expected to be 52%.

The data shown is unlikely to make for happy reading for those opposed to HS2....

View media item 3337
 

PR1Berske

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The table below shows rail growth between the regions set to benefit from HS2.

In the period covered growth should have been 22% and by phase 1 opening growth was expected to be 52%.

The data shown is unlikely to make for happy reading for those opposed to HS2....

View media item 3337

Unless the figures were deliberately reduced to help make the case .
 

Jorge Da Silva

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The table below shows rail growth between the regions set to benefit from HS2.

In the period covered growth should have been 22% and by phase 1 opening growth was expected to be 52%.

The data shown is unlikely to make for happy reading for those opposed to HS2....

View media item 3337

Clearly there is a case for HS2 and I believe it is the best option Capacity wise
 

The Ham

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Unless the figures were deliberately reduced to help make the case .

Source data:
http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/4277ce6b-bdf3-4562-a6b1-eb036b57f065

If you look at pervious years the figures are lower than those in 2008/09, so even if that years figures were altered to fit the facts desired the general trend wouldn't be much different.

Just because the numbers don't fit the narrative that you want to see doesn't mean that they are wrong.
 

pt_mad

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Back to the Liverpool paths. One thought: If Virgin had applied for and potentially been given these paths as soon as the Norton Bridge upgrade was complete (2?) years ago. If say maintenance was already tight and they could have done it.

Would they likely have become part of the minimum service spec for the first 5 years of the West Coast Partnership, like the hourly Liverpool working is?

Is it possible they may have become expected by their nature, and included as a necessary? That's what appeared to happen with a couple of the extra Trent Valley stops that were added in (was it May 17) timetable. They were added by Virgin and then became part of the minimum service requirement as part of the West Coast Partnership, thus setting them in stone next time around.
 

driver_m

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This is only a rumour I've heard, so don't take it as the truth, but I've heard that the turnarounds at Euston are being shrunken down to something like 15m for services in and out, in order to get these extra workings in the system .That's what's doing the rounds at the moment. (It's something like 30m min at the moment).

Again only rumour, not a hard fact.
 

VT 390

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This is only a rumour I've heard, so don't take it as the truth, but I've heard that the turnarounds at Euston are being shrunken down to something like 15m for services in and out, in order to get these extra workings in the system .That's what's doing the rounds at the moment. (It's something like 30m min at the moment).

Again only rumour, not a hard fact.

If this is true then I think that 15 minutes will be to little for long distance services as you have to get everyone off, prepare the train and get everyone on board which would mean even a small delay arriving could delay the following service that that train forms.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I do wonder if these extra services have something to do with the fact that since 2009 passenger numbers between the North West and London have gone up by 70%:
http://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/displayreport/report/html/af0a338f-cb90-4b8a-b413-403d5c917857
To put this in some sort of perspective; using the HS2 model for passenger growth it should be about 25% by now, 70% would be around 2030 (or getting close to phase 2 opening).

One problem with that analysis is that 2008 was at the "end" of the WCRM project, during which WCML traffic had been depressed for a decade.
There were very poor weekend services and repeated closures and diversions while they finished major projects like Trent Valley 4-tracking and Rugby remodelling.
If the baseline had been say 2012, after the WCML had recovered its normal traffic, it would have been more impressive.

VT frequencies still follow the VHF timetable implemented in 2008 (so now a decade old).
The constraint has always been the number of diagrams which can be squeezed out of the 390 fleet.
 

The Planner

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This is only a rumour I've heard, so don't take it as the truth, but I've heard that the turnarounds at Euston are being shrunken down to something like 15m for services in and out, in order to get these extra workings in the system .That's what's doing the rounds at the moment. (It's something like 30m min at the moment).

Again only rumour, not a hard fact.
Not compliant then, unless we have capitulated for the customer, 25 minutes is the stipulated requirement for a Liverpool, Man Pic, North Wales or Chester.
 

The Ham

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One problem with that analysis is that 2008 was at the "end" of the WCRM project, during which WCML traffic had been depressed for a decade.
There were very poor weekend services and repeated closures and diversions while they finished major projects like Trent Valley 4-tracking and Rugby remodelling.
If the baseline had been say 2012, after the WCML had recovered its normal traffic, it would have been more impressive.

VT frequencies still follow the VHF timetable implemented in 2008 (so now a decade old).
The constraint has always been the number of diagrams which can be squeezed out of the 390 fleet.

There's a few things to point out, firstly HS2 is using the same base line figure as their starting point and only expected 22% over that timeframe.

Even if we started with 2011/12 figures the growth rate is still 27%, yet 5 years of HS2 growth (2.5% per year) would then be 13%, so it's still significantly higher growth than the HS2 model has allowed for. It's also still higher than the HS2 model has allowed for since 2009 (22%).

Finally between 2002 and 2009 growth was still about 23%, meaning that growth was still fairly good during the period when there were delays and engineering works.

It's also worth noting that on the ECML rail growth between the NE and London has gone up by 29% since 2009, where there's not been the same issues.
 

driver_m

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Not compliant then, unless we have capitulated for the customer, 25 minutes is the stipulated requirement for a Liverpool, Man Pic, North Wales or Chester.

Also what I suspected, given our timings for immobilisation and mobilisation alone. But I'm not involved in any sort of planning so hopefully this particular messenger doesn't get shot .
 

sd0733

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This is only a rumour I've heard, so don't take it as the truth, but I've heard that the turnarounds at Euston are being shrunken down to something like 15m for services in and out, in order to get these extra workings in the system .That's what's doing the rounds at the moment. (It's something like 30m min at the moment).

Again only rumour, not a hard fact.

I believe that platforms 17 and 18 will be closed as of the start of the May timetable so it would make it likely that turnrounds need to be decreased anyway in the remaining 16 platforms. Looking at Realtime trains for Euston there doesnt appear to be any booked trains from 17 or 18 from May.
 

sufian123

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This is only a rumour I've heard, so don't take it as the truth, but I've heard that the turnarounds at Euston are being shrunken down to something like 15m for services in and out, in order to get these extra workings in the system .That's what's doing the rounds at the moment. (It's something like 30m min at the moment).

Again only rumour, not a hard fact.

It’s not a rumour. VT catering team told me 2 platforms closing. 16 and 17 to prepare for hs2
 

Statto

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This is only a rumour I've heard, so don't take it as the truth, but I've heard that the turnarounds at Euston are being shrunken down to something like 15m for services in and out, in order to get these extra workings in the system .That's what's doing the rounds at the moment. (It's something like 30m min at the moment).

Again only rumour, not a hard fact.

Wouldn't surprise me, VT after the evening peaks at Euston have such short turnaround as well, & seen it myself, caught the 19.07 Euston-Liverpool, the incoming journey that formed the Liverpool train supposed arrive just before 7pm, but got pathed to another platform & ended up going to another destination, so the train behind that one which was running late ended up being pathed to the platform the Liverpool train was to depart from, & that ended up being the Liverpool train, but arrived at Euston couple of minutes before it was to depart again, so the Liverpool train ended up being 10 minutes late on departure.
 

87015

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17/18 remain available for use for the foreseeable, but no planned use for May to ease the signallers in to them going eventually.
 
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