Virgin Saturday Day Travelcard

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cubby

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Hi all, I'm planning a trip to London Euston from Liverpool next Saturday morning and due to return the same day.

I've noticed a saturday day travelcard is available, £36, which would be perfect but the last train back to L'pool is at 7.30pm. I can get a train back direct from Euston to Chester at 9.00pm but would this be valid? The 9pm is eligible under this offer if I select a Chester departure.

Or, do I have to stick to Liverpool on my return?

Thanks in advance for your help!
 
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yorkie

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Having looked into this in detail, your request is not as simple as it first looks.

It looks like you have done two separate searches:

  • Liverpool - London Zones 1-6; and
  • Chester - London Zones 1-6
And you have identified that a ticket from Liverpool to London Zones 1-6 should match your needs to get from Liverpool to London, and from London to Chester. Right?

So, first you want to know if London to Liverpool is permitted via Chester? We can look that up:

Valid Routes from London to Liverpool :

  1. Direct trains from London Terminals to Liverpool Stations
  2. Shortest Route: via Rugby, Stafford & Crewe
  3. Mapped Routes : (London & Liverpool are both Routeing Groups so no need for any fares check)
    LONDON GROUP - LIVERPOOL GROUP:
I've not looked at all the map combinations but map combination LC + CH permits the route you propose taking.

The ticket you propose purchasing from Liverpool is valid on those routes but as it is routed "VIRGIN TRNS ONLY" that means it is only valid on Virgin Trains services that take permitted routes. The 2100 is a Manchester service and will take you to Crewe, however from Crewe there isn't a Virgin train that will take you onwards to Chester.

The other ticket you looked up from Chester has greater validity as it is routed via Rugby and not restricted to Virgin Trains and is therefore valid on other operators trains, so this ticket is valid on the onward connection from Crewe to Chester. That is not the case with the Liverpool ticket.

An additional ticket would be required between Crewe & Chester if you wish to travel to Chester on a ticket from Liverpool to London, this is simply due to the lack of Virgin services at that time, and the routeing on this particular ticket.
 
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island

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That ticket doesn't permit break of journey, so you are not supposed to stop short at Chester. It's route VIRGIN TRNS ONLY so you couldn't switch to another TOC to get to Liverpool (assuming a suitable train exists).
 

cubby

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Sorry, so just to clarify if I book a 7am departure from Liverpool to London and then book, for example a 7.30pm departure from London to Liverpool. I can instead not go on the 7.30pm departure on the day if I so wish and instead go on a 9pm departure to Chester instead?

I'm just worried the ticket will show destination Liverpool and I won't be allowed you see.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'd be staying in Chester too, not travelling onwards to Liverpool, incidentally.
 

Indigo2

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The 2100 train isn't direct to Chester; it involves a change onto an Arriva Trains Wales service at Crewe. This is allowed on the Chester Travelcard as it is routed "AP RUGBY", whereas the Liverpool Travelcard is routed "VIRGIN TRNS ONLY" and all travel must be on Virgin.

In addition as island says, this ticket prohibits break of journey in both directions, so you couldn't stop short at Chester on a Liverpool ticket anyway. Would it be at all possible to get to Chester early in the morning and start your journey there?
 

GPR

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You can return on any train.
It is only the departing train you have to specify which one you will be on, if at first it is available.
 

island

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An additional ticket would be required between Crewe & Chester if you wish to travel to Chester on a ticket from Liverpool to London, this is simply due to the lack of Virgin services at that time, and the routeing on this particular ticket.
Disagree with this. The ticket held is not valid for break of journey so the customer would require an excess to a ticket that permits break of journey, such as Liverpool Stns to London Terminals SVR £74.20 plus an off-peak day travelcard £8.50.
 

cubby

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Ok guys, thanks for your help and clarifying the matter for me. I'll look into it in more detail, I shall see if I can get a lift to Chester and do it that way instead....might be better!
 

yorkie

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Disagree with this. The ticket held is not valid for break of journey so the customer would require an excess to a ticket that permits break of journey, such as Liverpool Stns to London Terminals SVR £74.20 plus an off-peak day travelcard £8.50.
I'm not sure.

If it's not possible to get to your destination in the same day (which appears to be the case in the scenario described by the OP) then an overnight stay is permitted and this doesn't count as a break of journey.

This does open up potential cans of works though as I suppose the question of whether they can compel you to stay the night in Crewe (as opposed to Chester, if you are happy to buy a ticket to get there) is perhaps debatable. It isn't compulsory to stay at the furthest point you can get to, but it isn't clear if you are then compelled to resume the journey the next day or not, or whether you can take a train to an alternative location rather than forced to stay at Crewe. Hmmm...

(And that's before getting into the debate about whether or not the return portion of a ticket that purports to be in the Off Peak category if tickets can legitimately prohibit break of journey! ;) No, let's not even go there!)
 

island

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It's not an off-peak ticket, it's a SAT DYTCRD :)

I think if one was on an earlier train, they mightn't be able to enforce the break of journey prohibition effectively, but if there is no actual way of getting back to the right destination then the barrier staff at EUS might make an issue of it.
 

yorkie

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It's not an off-peak ticket, it's a SAT DYTCRD :)
But there are only 3 categories, according to ATOC (and this information is repeated by various TOCs, I have an East Coast leaflet that makes the same claim) ;)
I think if one was on an earlier train, they mightn't be able to enforce the break of journey prohibition effectively, but if there is no actual way of getting back to the right destination then the barrier staff at EUS might make an issue of it.
I don't think that a ticket that prohibits break of journey can possibly be stated to be not valid on itineraries that involve an overnight stay; there isn't anything in the rules that suggest that, as far as I can determine. For example, the old Saver returns all did not permit break of journey on the outward journey pre-Simplification, however an overnight stay was still permitted as this did not constitute a break of journey.
 

island

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I don't think that a ticket that prohibits break of journey can possibly be stated to be not valid on itineraries that involve an overnight stay; there isn't anything in the rules that suggest that, as far as I can determine. For example, the old Saver returns all did not permit break of journey on the outward journey pre-Simplification, however an overnight stay was still permitted as this did not constitute a break of journey.
I'm talking practically enforceable here, as opposed to legally enforceable.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Avantix 11 says these tickets are VT only, fixed outwards, any train back.
This would mean you cannot return to Chester after the last through train which is 1810 from Euston on a Saturday (last one to Liverpool is 2011).
You can change trains on the return leg, but only VT/VT.
A £4.20 Merseyrail daysaver would cover the Liverpool-Chester leg.

Contradicting the above, the LM web site offers ATW connections at Crewe from Chester both ways, but nothing between 0455 and 1138 ex Chester.
From Liverpool (VT only) the 0547 is available, but the next is 1248!
 

Indigo2

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Contradicting the above, the LM web site offers ATW connections at Crewe from Chester both ways
That's because the ticket from Chester isn't restricted to Virgin services only, while from Liverpool it is.
nothing between 0455 and 1138 ex Chester.
From Liverpool (VT only) the 0547 is available, but the next is 1248!
Probably just very small quotas available on this ticket, and they're all sold out I would guess.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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That's because the ticket from Chester isn't restricted to Virgin services only, while from Liverpool it is.
On Avantix 11 they are both shown as the same restriction VY.
I have just twigged the subtlety of routes VT ONLY and AP RUGBY.
And "valid by Virgin train shown" is not the same as "VT only".
So you can connect via Crewe on a Chester VY ticket but not to Liverpool.
Don't make it easy do they?
 

cubby

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Thanks for all your help guys.

Ended up sticking to Liverpool-London anyway and ordered via thetrainline.com. Received the tickets today and unsure if I've got everything. I've received one ticket with the details of my seat reservation from L'pool to London and then I have a ticket saying its a travelcard. But I've nothing for my return journey, will showing the travelcard ticket be alright at Euston coming back? trainline are saying it is.
 

lemonic

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Thanks for all your help guys.

Ended up sticking to Liverpool-London anyway and ordered via thetrainline.com. Received the tickets today and unsure if I've got everything. I've received one ticket with the details of my seat reservation from L'pool to London and then I have a ticket saying its a travelcard. But I've nothing for my return journey, will showing the travelcard ticket be alright at Euston coming back? trainline are saying it is.
Yes that is fine. A travelcard from outside the London zones comes as 1 ticket and includes the journey to and from London and the travel within Zones 1-6.

However, you have paid more than you needed to by using The Trainline! Using another website that doesn't charge booking fees e.g. RedSpottedHanky would have been cheaper.
 
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