Virgin Trains abolishes cheaper First Class 'Advance' fares in 2015?

[All Line Rover]

Looking at fares in 2015, the cheapest tier of First Class 'Advance' fares seems to have been abolished on all Virgin Trains routes, leaving the cheapest tier as the (currently) second-cheapest tier.

This results in some substantial price increases, such as the cheapest First Class 'Advance' fare from Birmingham to London increasing from £23.50 to £39. This is more expensive than the cheapest First Class 'Advance' fare from York to London, which is £36.50 and available on a variety of services in 2015.

Considering Virgin Trains Pendolinos have the highest number of First Class seats per train of any train in the UK (of any train in Europe?), with First Class accommodation being lightly loaded on off-peak services and especially those in the late evening, I wonder why this change was made?

 

[455driver]

Maybe they worked out that these supercheap tickets were not making them any money?

1st class is supposed to be a premium product and these cheap tickets are not helping that image.

Maybe in a year or two they will convert some 1sts to standard as well?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe in a year or two they will convert some 1sts to standard as well?

ISTR that this is indeed planned, at least on the 9-car sets.

Neil

 

[tbtc]

I wonder why this change was made?

Maybe they worked out that these supercheap tickets were not making them any money?

Probably for the reason that 455driver has given.

Could also be that they know enough London - Birmingham passengers will pay £39 to travel First Class, so there's no need to undercut that level of pricing with a £23.50 ticket?

£39 is still good value to travel between the two cities in First Class - there's a danger of advance fares becoming some kind of "race to the bottom" competition with Megabus/ National Express - rail is a quality product and lots of "bargain" fares can devalue it.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Virgin are converting some first class carriages to standard class, so I expect that this is in relation to that. If they cut the advance quotas now it won't be such a shock when the changes happen.

It could also be that they don't consider it to be making them any money.

 

[martynbristow]

Offering First Class dirt cheap is a good lost earner getting people to try the service and use it again.
I've fallen into that trap
I'd consider paying extra in future.

However the only tickets available are until the 21st January so I wouldn't draw conclusions on this as January can be a very busy month.
£50 odd from Liverpool - London isn't bad at all.

 

[Howardh]

Using Virgin, I know 1st class seats are supposed to be bigger and therefore more leg room, but I find them just as uncomfortable as the standard ones! For me, the cheap first advance comes into its own when I use Manchester_London and the two 1st lounges.

It would be sad to be priced out of them, maybe standard class can walk-in (off-peak hrs) and pay a fiver to use them (like you do for £20-ish at airports). Otherwise, if they price 1st beyond the off-peak day tripper, these lounges could be empty during the day?

Will we still get weekend firsts?

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I can't imagine Virgin getting rid of Weekend First - owing to the fact there's no business travel at weekends (generally) then it tends to be by and large deserted. I could imagine £15 per adult would bring in a considerable amount of money on an evening Euston-Glasgow for example.

 

[amcluesent]

I'm on a 1st Advance using 17:15 service from Birmingham to Glasgow Central, and my estimation of the VT offering has crashed to the floor. A corned beef sandwich? C'mon!

 

[Squaddie]

I'm on a 1st Advance using 17:15 service from Birmingham to Glasgow Central, and my estimation of the VT offering has crashed to the floor. A corned beef sandwich? C'mon!

Comfortable seat? Got enough legroom? Nice, relaxed ambience in the carriage?

If so, then you've got what first class is intended to be. The last thing you need is to spend hours in a travelling restaurant.

 

[amcluesent]

The onboard 'Complimentary' wi-fi is also useless.

 

[Darandio]

The onboard 'Complimentary' wi-fi is also useless.

Oh I don't know about that, is it not what has allowed you to post here twice to register your disgust about the 'complimentaries'?

 

[chris89]

The onboard 'Complimentary' wi-fi is also useless.

I Disagree with that. When have been in first and using it on the train from Wolverhampton to Edinburgh or return, has been very good. Miles better then the mobile signal i can get.

If the super cheaper tickets, get more expensive going to Scotland (From Wolves), that will be ashame.

 

[sonic2009]

The wifi I know is going through an upgrade, it's better to have some wifi than none at all!

 

[Starmill]

A London - Manchester 'FCS' Advance at £38 is one I'll occasionally go for. But a 'FBS' £55 one? Hmmmm. I don't think so. And then there are a whole load of tiers above that and nothing cheaper.

Maybe they worked out that these supercheap tickets were not making them any money?

1st class is supposed to be a premium product and these cheap tickets are not helping that image.

I mean how is £110 return not 'enough' for it to be a 'premium' product? Will they only be satisfied if everyone buys a £459 FOR?

By contrast, the market on VT is rather flooded with £12 'VDS' Standard Advances.

Combined with the diabolical interior in Standard on Pendos, that's more London - North travel on EMT and EC for me next year!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Comfortable seat? Got enough legroom? Nice, relaxed ambience in the carriage?

If so, then you've got what first class is intended to be. The last thing you need is to spend hours in a travelling restaurant.

Sorry - why? If premium fares apply, and this is a premium travelling experience, why should a premium service not be on offer? 455Driver says that first is a premium product, well and good. Many on here think that Advances devalue a service - particularly cheap first class tickets (see the FGW reduced First carriages thread). But it seems to me the TOCs want to charge people vast amounts of money for upgrades without actually following through on offering this exclusive and 'premium' service at all in some cases!

 

[Tetchytyke]

I love all this talk of "premium product" and "premium pricing". For any rail journey of more than about three hours the competitor is the airlines, especially "proper" airlines like BA. And they have exactly the same pricing strategies- buy a restricted ticket a billion years in advance and you get a much better deal than rocking up on the day and buying a ticket. Get rid of all the advance tiers, and make first class the sole preserve of those on FORs, and you'd comfortably accommodate all the first class passengers in the driving carriage of a Pendolino.

I don't think the cheaper advance tickets devalue the product. I don't think less of East Coast's first class offering just because I get to regularly travel in it for free.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think the cheaper advance tickets devalue the product. I don't think less of East Coast's first class offering just because I get to regularly travel in it for free.

I'd like to see a simple multiplier of 1.5 or 1.6 on all Standard tickets, European-style. I don't see a need for "a bit more legroom and a bit more seat width" to be super-premium - or maybe you could do that as a separate class as I think MML did for a bit - one coach with all the freebies for a fortune (or just a restaurant car), the rest of First Class just a higher standard of accommodation and maybe free drinks for a reasonable multiplier.

Were this the case I imagine I might well default to First Class. I usually do if I'm in Switzerland.

Neil

 

[bb21]

I don't think the cheaper advance tickets devalue the product. I don't think less of East Coast's first class offering just because I get to regularly travel in it for free.

You may not view cheaper Advances as something that devalues the First Class offerings, but it is not what people on cheap Advance Firsts think that counts. What matters is whether the product is devalued in the eyes of those who purchase expensive FORs.

If they think so, then they might simply stop using it, which is what really matters financially to many TOCs.

 

[SS4]

If they think so, then they might simply stop using it, which is what really matters financially to many TOCs.

What would be the alternative? They could drive, they could use standard, use First Advances or not travel. I can only see First Advances being useful in this situation

I also don't understand how Virgin don't make money on First Advances. The food and drink can't cost that much, they recently restricted lounge access too.

Only time will tell of course but I wonder just how many business travellers travel outside the peaks? I was on the (delayed) 2143 EUS-BHM on Monday but didn't see anyone who looked like they were on business

 

[Tetchytyke]

You may not view cheaper Advances as something that devalues the First Class offerings, but it is not what people on cheap Advance Firsts think that counts. What matters is whether the product is devalued in the eyes of those who purchase expensive FORs.

I've made this point already in another thread, but I don't understand why First Advance tickets "devalue the product" yet standard Advance tickets don't.

ATOC celebrate the fact that "half of people buy in advance" and "four out of five people are using railcards or advance tickets". They take great steps to point out that the eye-watering walk-up fares are bought by a tiny minority of people, so please stop going on about them.

Someone who buys the SOR is essentially described by ATOC as a disorganised idiot who should pay through the nose for their foolishness, and they don't worry about the fact that the bloke sitting next to him may have paid £20 instead of £200. I don't think things are really any different in first class.

 

[duncanp]

If they abolish the £23.50 advance fare for London - Birmingham at weekends, then it will not be worth buying a ticket for £39.

Currently, a Standard Class off peak return costs £50.50, so with the first class upgrade costing £10 each way you can have a first class return for £70.50 which allows you to travel on any train.

 

[bb21]

What would be the alternative? They could drive, they could use standard, use First Advances or not travel. I can only see First Advances being useful in this situation

I also don't understand how Virgin don't make money on First Advances. The food and drink can't cost that much, they recently restricted lounge access too.

Only time will tell of course but I wonder just how many business travellers travel outside the peaks? I was on the (delayed) 2143 EUS-BHM on Monday but didn't see anyone who looked like they were on business

The alternative, as you say, is that they might consider it pointless paying for an FOR , and just go Standard.

How many will I don't know, but that is one way the TOC could lose money and see cheap Advance fare in First Class as being more trouble than its worth.

I've made this point already in another thread, but I don't understand why First Advance tickets "devalue the product" yet standard Advance tickets don't.

ATOC celebrate the fact that "half of people buy in advance" and "four out of five people are using railcards or advance tickets". They take great steps to point out that the eye-watering walk-up fares are bought by a tiny minority of people, so please stop going on about them.

Someone who buys the SOR is essentially described by ATOC as a disorganised idiot who should pay through the nose for their foolishness, and they don't worry about the fact that the bloke sitting next to him may have paid £20 instead of £200. I don't think things are really any different in first class.

I passed no judgement on whether it indeed devalues the First Class offering. All I said is that the opinion of you, or anyone else who paid very little to use First Class accommodation, matters very little on this subject to the TOC, so perhaps you should read what I said again.

As much as you might want to argue to the contrary, there are still plenty of people who pay FORs for various reasons, and these people matter a lot more to the TOCs revenue-wise than you or me.

 

[All Line Rover]

I am not convinced by these changes. Those holding FORs will not be travelling on early afternoon or late evening services. They will be travelling on peak services where even 'cheap' Advance tickets are still wildly expensive (£134.50 to £177 for London to Liverpool or Manchester, for example).

Virgin have Off-Peak First Class tickets on the Birmingham to London route. If First Advance tickets will cost a minimum of £39, a Rugby to London passenger might as well buy the FSR (First Off-Peak Return) for £120.

For what it's worth, while I will continue to use First Class when holding a season ticket, I would not pay £53 to travel in First Class from London to Manchester when a £12.50 Standars Class ticket is available. £38 was worth considering, but First Class on Virgin Trains sinply isn't worth four times the price of Standard Class, especially off peak.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I passed no judgement on whether it indeed devalues the First Class offering. All I said is that the opinion of you, or anyone else who paid very little to use First Class accommodation, matters very little on this subject to the TOC, so perhaps you should read what I said again.

I was more questioning why the TOC would be too bothered, given that FORs are a tiny minority of people. My perception is that the likes of Virgin have long wanted to have an entirely yield-management based railway, run just like an airline would be run, and that FOR and first season ticket holders are seen more of a nuisance.

I remember that Virgin withdrew first class complimentaries from FOR/season ticket holders at Northampton (I think it was) because Silverlink were not indulging their yield management.

 

[bb21]

I was more questioning why the TOC would be too bothered, given that FORs are a tiny minority of people. My perception is that the likes of Virgin have long wanted to have an entirely yield-management based railway, run just like an airline would be run, and that FOR and first season ticket holders are seen more of a nuisance.

I remember that Virgin withdrew first class complimentaries from FOR/season ticket holders at Northampton (I think it was) because Silverlink were not indulging their yield management.

Would they? Wouldn't they? I don't know. That is of course for each TOC to decide.

Nevertheless even if Virgin prefer a completely yield-management based system, until they have it, I don't think they would ignore the opinion of people paying FOR (and FSR where they exist) fares if those people felt cheap Advances were devaluing the product. But do they feel like that? Equally I don't know. It is merely a possibility.

I'm not going to pretend that this move from Virgin is anything but a revenue-raising exercise. Whether they stand to gain more than they lose remains to be seen.

 

[tbtc]

I've made this point already in another thread, but I don't understand why First Advance tickets "devalue the product" yet standard Advance tickets don't

I can't speak for anyone else, but I think that there's an argument that says that someone on a "standard" advance may be travelling because the cheapest possible ticket is the only one they can afford - i.e. it's a case of the TOC getting a tenner for that seat or getting nothing...

...but someone paying for a First Class advance is more likely to be able to afford an open/unrestricted "standard" ticket (or even trade down to an advanced "standard" ticket) - i.e. the TOC may be able to squeeze more money out of them by withdrawing a cheap First advance ticket.

Comfortable seat? Got enough legroom? Nice, relaxed ambience in the carriage?

If so, then you've got what first class is intended to be. The last thing you need is to spend hours in a travelling restaurant.

There's a lot of truth in that.

The fact that people are assessing their First Class experience in terms of the number of freebies they get at the First Class lounge, the number of freebies they get on board... suggests that people don't put much value on the actual onboard experience (i.e. the better seating/legroom/atmosphere, on top of the cost of a "standard" ticket).

If it becomes too much about the freebies then the actual product becomes devalued - I can understand why some TOCs may take the "reassuringly expensive" approach.

 

[gord]

To be honest, if I'm coming back from London to Wolverhampton later on a weekday evening, I'll always have a look to see if there are any £23.50 First Advances left because during the week, they offer very good value for money for what you get. Those evening trains are very pleasant in First Class too. If there aren't any left, it's then just a simple case of seeing if I can get back cheaper on Chiltern or a Virgin standard fare. (I'll always avoid London Midland if I can, takes too long!). Of course going by Chiltern does mean a change at Birmingham so I take that into account too.

So abolishing these fares may lose my custom but then I only get them on the off-chance of them being avialable anyway. However, the fact that Virgin stops at Sandwell and Dudley and it has a big free car park is a greater reason for me to travel by Virgin rather than cheap First Class tickets. And of course, there are some very cheap standard advance tickets when you book early enough.

So for me, I don't see those fares being abolished as a loss...more of a 'it was nice while it lasted and I'm glad I made the most of them'.

 

[yorksrob]

Since the whole idea is that TOC's can have plenty of carriages available for their "Grandes Toupees" for their business journeys. In order to do this, they need first class advance, otherwise all those carriages would be empty most of the day (alternative - downgrade carriages and risk annoying the big wigs when there isn't enough room, as GW are contemplating).

What it boils down to is whether thay can still fill 1st at those other times with the slightly cheaper remaining advance tickets.

 

[SS4]

The alternative, as you say, is that they might consider it pointless paying for an FOR , and just go Standard.

How many will I don't know, but that is one way the TOC could lose money and see cheap Advance fare in First Class as being more trouble than its worth.

The question really hinges on how many will go standard and if it's enough to offset the revenue lost by first advance holders going standard or using different TOCs. I can only hope Virgin have done suitable research.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The question really hinges on how many will go standard and if it's enough to offset the revenue lost by first advance holders going standard or using different TOCs. I can only hope Virgin have done suitable research.

I imagine they are taking note of ever-increasing numbers of business users not being allowed First Class, and therefore considering that it is increasingly going to become a leisure product?

Neil