Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

[Andyh82]

Having skimmed through the flurry of postings today, I gather the main issue about this repeated franchising debacle is what colour the trains will be painted.

And whether the Azuma name will be continued!

 

[Emblematic]

I just think that including 'London' in the name takes away the significance from the East Coast, the North, and Scotland, whereas GNER at least bracketed it all under the one banner ('Great'). It's like calling 'GWR'; 'LWR', just doesn't sit right IMO.

As I said though, much more important things to worry about. So long as the new set up runs smoothly that's all that matters

I have a bigger problem with the 'Eastern' bit of the name. The old LNER included the former Great Northern and Great Eastern companies, but the new LNER is really just the Great Northern railway's mainline (and I suppose the NER, if you must.) Is anywhere served by LNER east of London?

It's all well and good for a private enterprise to aspire to 'greatness', I suspect the new LNER will do little more than keep the job running until the brains at DfT work out what they want to try next...

 

[ChiefPlanner]

And whether the Azuma name will be continued!

Quite , trivia , but it keeps people happy - much as I used to (disparagingly say) , rail consumer groups were really only interested in the 3 "T"' of tea, tickets and toilets ..

Far more important to concentrate on issues like service , strategy and sensible ticket prices...

 

[jamesontheroad]

Having skimmed through the flurry of postings today, I gather the main issue about this repeated franchising debacle is what colour the trains will be painted.

Isn't that why everyone comes to railforums.co.uk?

 

[route:oxford]

I have a bigger problem with the 'Eastern' bit of the name. The old LNER included the former Great Northern and Great Eastern companies, but the new LNER is really just the Great Northern railway's mainline (and I suppose the NER, if you must.) Is anywhere served by LNER east of London?

Yes.

Take a look at a map online that has proper grid-lines and you'll find how many places lie East of London.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I just think that including 'London' in the name takes away the significance from the East Coast, the North, and Scotland, whereas GNER at least bracketed it all under the one banner ('Great'). It's like calling 'GWR'; 'LWR', just doesn't sit right IMO.
As I said though, much more important things to worry about. So long as the new set up runs smoothly that's all that matters

London North Eastern is the name of the Network Rail Route south of the Scottish border.
So LNER fits with the intention of a joint TOC/NR operation in future.
However the NR Route has a much wider footprint (in England) than the LNER TOC will.

 

[w0033944]

A thoughtful and we'll considered post.

In riposte, I would suggest that Great North Eastern Railway made more effective and creative use of the heritage of the route while incorporating it into a modern brand - "Route of the Flying Scotsman" and all that, cast metal crests on the HST and Pullman sets, but still completely eschewed the traditional image by adopting their striking flame red and navy blue identity. It just leaves me scratching my head when a historically significant name rears it's head, and the enthusiast crowd jumps on the bandwagon screaming "Ooh, paint it apple apple green! Paint it garter blue!", despite the fact that brand awareness, customer expectations, technological advances in design and, more importantly, the aesthetics of train design, have moved far beyond simply painting a few stripes around the boiler straps of a steam loco.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a huge fan of nostalgia and a great follower of the LNER of old. And I'm often one of the first to decry the fleeting fashionability of many of today's excessively complex livery schemes that rely on vinyl application for their execution. The mid thirties were not a halcyon age for the railways: The LNER was run constantly on a shoestring, and beyond the few well publicised glamour trains, the daily experience of a regular traveller on LNER services was probably of slow, dirty and dated trains. That's not to denigrate the efforts of the staff at the time however, who undoubtedly did do their best to keep things moving, in the days when the railway frequently was a real family.

Thanks for your response. I think I owe you an apology as I thought I detected sneering in your comment which wasn't there. I'm going through anxiety etc. at present and am perhaps more sensitive and less patient than I otherwise would be.

I think it would be nice for the livery to reference that of the LNER during the Grouping era as they're already doing so with their decision to use the brand. Many passengers won't know what the name references and will just think that it's a memorable acronym; similarly, using a small amount of Apple Green or teak-effect surely won't offend the aesthetic preferences of those who are unaware of the history of the ECML, yet would act as a knowing indication to those who get the reference. I agree that modern tastes demand something other than a copy of the old livery, and I think it would be unsuited to contemporary stock, but, for me, the Virgin red suggests a mere rebranding rather than a new era for the ECML, and, for those who take an interest in historical matters, red is much more a West Coast/Midlands livery.

I agree that travelling on a standard service in, say, 1932 somewhere on the LNER network was a remarkably unglamorous experience, but I'm not convinced that the LMS or Southern were noticeably superior. I exclude the GWR as, other than South Wales, most of their network was in areas with less of the smog and dirt of heavy industry than either the LMS or LNER and fewer dreary commuter suburbs than the Southern. I think the main problem was that the financial difficulties experienced by the LNER meant that, as you suggest, out-of-date stock and delapidated locos were frequently used on secondary routes and lightly-used branches after they ought to gave been withdrawn. Perhaps, though, the modern ECML services are much more redolent of the East Coast expresses than a Gateshead commuter service of non-corridor stock or a pair of Quad-Arts heading out of the capital behind an N2 on a wet winter's evening, so therefore the association is more apt than it might first appear?

 

[Joe Paxton]

As I understand it all TOC booking engines are effectively either the Trainline based ancient one, or the slightly less ancient Capita-owned one (RedSpottedHanky et al). I wouldn't be at all surprised to see the existing engine rebranded and given a new font, possibly removing Nectar points. I'm pretty sure it's the same platform that East Coast used, and NX before, and GNER before that.

Not correct, on several counts!

The booking engine behind RedSpottedHanky is run by Worldline, not Capita, and is commonly called WebTIS.

VTEC moved over from Worldline WebTIS to a new, custom built booking engine last year.

The Govia TOCs moved from Worldline WebTIS to a new system built by On Track Retail a couple of years ago.

Caledonian Sleeper have a booking system built for them by Assertis.

What LNER will do remains to be seen.

 

[43096]

Given that only Tourist stock on the LNER had any green in its livery, I'd suggest that Apple Green would be suitable for power cars, but passenger trailers/coaches would be more aptly liveried with some form of teak-effect vinyl

Really? Teak effect vinyl? That would just look utterly, utterly appalling.

 

[Emblematic]

Yes.

Take a look at a map online that has proper grid-lines and you'll find how many places lie East of London.

Yep. Plenty of places east of London. Still looking for one served by VTEC/GNER franchise. Care to name one? Just getting the coordinates of the locations is much easier than stuffing around with maps and grids, BTW.

 

[w0033944]

Given that only Tourist stock on the LNER had any green in its livery, I'd suggest that Apple Green would be suitable for power cars, but passenger trailers/coaches would be more aptly liveried with some form of teak-effect vinyl, or, perhaps, two-tone grey in the manner of the Silver Jubilee. Though I like the two-tone blue of the Coronation service, it wouldn't work with Apple Green.

To make it clear, I'm not suggesting that an exact recreation of the original livery would be suitable, merely that using small amounts of those shades or effects could act as a subtle refrence to the past without seeming old-fashioned.

 

[w0033944]

Really? Teak effect vinyl? That would just look utterly, utterly appalling.

Any worse than the teak-effect paint scheme of the post-Gresley steel-bodied stock?

 

[Joe Paxton]

Having skimmed through the flurry of postings today, I gather the main issue about this repeated franchising debacle is what colour the trains will be painted.

Pretty standard reaction of many alas. I guess it's an easier subject to talk about than looking at why VTEC failed, and if there are underlying structural problems with the rail franchising model.

 

[43096]

Any worse than the teak-effect paint scheme of the post-Gresley steel-bodied stock?

Probably not! I just think teak-effect is an appalling look generally.

 

[yorksrob]

Pretty standard reaction of many alas. I guess it's an easier subject to talk about than looking at why VTEC failed, and if there are underlying structural problems with the rail franchising model.

We've been going on about the underlying problems of the rail franchising model for the last twenty years !

No harm in a little speculation over the new brand.

 

[43096]

To make it clear, I'm not suggesting that an exact recreation of the original livery would be suitable, merely that using small amounts of those shades or effects could act as a subtle refrence to the past without seeming old-fashioned.

I'd suggest that it would be much better to use the colours from the "Silver Jubilee" in 1935 but applied in a modern way.

 

[Emblematic]

Pretty standard reaction of many alas. I guess it's an easier subject to talk about than looking at why VTEC failed, and if there are underlying structural problems with the rail franchising model.

In fairness, we may have touched on that topic in the thousand-odd postings before today. And today the only really new information was the new operator, the changeover date, and the new logo. The rest was politicking.

 

[Rail Blues]

Really? Teak effect vinyl? That would just look utterly, utterly appalling.

I assume they were taking the mickey with that suggestion Surely no one would suggest a teak vinyl it would be like sticking faux tudor beams on a brand new apartment block.

 

[507 001]

I have a bigger problem with the 'Eastern' bit of the name. The old LNER included the former Great Northern and Great Eastern companies, but the new LNER is really just the Great Northern railway's mainline (and I suppose the NER, if you must.) Is anywhere served by LNER east of London?

It's all well and good for a private enterprise to aspire to 'greatness', I suspect the new LNER will do little more than keep the job running until the brains at DfT work out what they want to try next...

But the route serves the North East of the UK. Hence the NE.....

 

[robbeech]

Anyone else just got the email from VTEC? Particularly this bit...

Yes, I was somewhat speechless after reading that paragraph.

 

[w0033944]

Pretty standard reaction of many alas. I guess it's an easier subject to talk about than looking at why VTEC failed, and if there are underlying structural problems with the rail franchising model.

I'm afraid I don't know enough about the industry as it currently exists, or have sufficient interest in what I find to be dry management/political matters to discuss the structural reasons for the failure of the VTEC franchise or the precise technicalities of how the re-nationalised entity will operate. If the moderators determine that members must either work within the rail industry or pass an exam on franchising and political oversight of the rail network in order to post, then I'll agree to my account being deleted or implement a self-regulated ban on posting, but, until then, provided that I'm not consistently leaving O/T comments or transgressing the posting rules I'm afraid I might continue to occasionally post comments that you deem beneath your no doubt elevated and rareified level of expertise. I rerely post on this forum, and, so far, have only discussed the historical relevance of the LNER brand and musing as to how the heritage associated with that brand might be used on the ECML under a re-nationalised franchise in this thread. I feel that this is a more productive and self-aware approach than pontificating on something of which I have little knowledge, i.e. the technicalities of VTEC's financial position or the process of determining who is awarded the franchises.

 

[w0033944]

Probably not! I just think teak-effect is an appalling look generally.

Done badly I agree, and I certainly think that too much of it would be OTT on modern stock, but a small amount, perhaps just a stripe below window level on an otherwise clean, minimal livery might be an interesting and unusual idea.

 

[Emblematic]

But the route serves the North East of the UK. Hence the NE.....

But then that reinforces Clansman's point that the North East and London are emphasised at the expense of Scotland, Yorkshire and so on. Let's be honest, they've just picked the closest historical-sounding name that hadn't been used already,
It's nothing new, LMS ignored all the North Western cities it served. Midland Railway went slightly beyond the midlands, as I recall...

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I'm interested in how they'll cover the Virgin brand on the inside though, especially if it's embroided in to the seats...

A bit of nip/tuck could be performed by sewing a piece of fabric over the Virgin logo - it wouldn't look out of place if it was done right as it would make the seat design look a lot newer than they actually are.

Didn't Ashton Villa did the same once when XL went under?

 

[Joe Paxton]

We've been going on about the underlying problems of the rail franchising model for the last twenty years !

No harm in a little speculation over the new brand.

In fairness, we may have touched on that topic in the thousand-odd postings before today. And today the only really new information was the new operator, the changeover date, and the new logo. The rest was politicking.

Fair comment - including that of w0033944 above.

I guess thing this will put an end to is the WC/EC confustion over Virgin Trains.

That said, many people still think Crosscountry is a VT operation...

 

[w0033944]

I assume they were taking the mickey with that suggestion Surely no one would suggest a teak vinyl it would be like sticking faux tudor beams on a brand new apartment block.

Faux teak has been done before, albeit prior to the introduction of vinyl overlays.

 

[aylesbury]

Wonder what the staff think about all this for long serving people they must wonder who next and what will the Daft come up with to get in the way of running a railway.

 

[johnr57]

Yes, I was somewhat speechless after reading that paragraph.

ditto

 

[w0033944]

Fair comment - including that of w0033944 above.

Indeed - if it's of any interest, I prefer the idea of vertical integration with running powers where necessary to re-Nationalisation. However, I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable on the details of the current financial situation or the legisltive difficulties of the various possible alternatives to the current model to feel confident in arguing for that preference beyond suspecting it might be more politically expedient for a Conservative government (which I expect to last for at least another decade given the shambolic nature of political opposition in this country) to back a privatised alternative to the current set-up rather than a Bevan-esque move to nationalise the system.

 

[Emblematic]

Done badly I agree, and I certainly think that too much of it would be OTT on modern stock, but a small amount, perhaps just a stripe below window level on an otherwise clean, minimal livery might be an interesting and unusual idea.

Hmm. Green. Teak vinyl. Interesting and unusual. What does that remind me of...