Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

[Joe Paxton]

But then that reinforces Clansman's point that the North East and London are emphasised at the expense of Scotland, Yorkshire and so on. Let's be honest, they've just picked the closest historical-sounding name that hadn't been used already,
It's nothing new, LMS ignored all the North Western cities it served. Midland Railway went slightly beyond the midlands, as I recall...

And has is often pointed out, the ECML doesn't spend a lot of time on the actual east coast of the country, though it does better than the WCML.

 

[w0033944]

Hmm. Green. Teak vinyl. Interesting and unusual. What does that remind me of...

^^Done badly.

 

[urpert]

Done badly I agree, and I certainly think that too much of it would be OTT on modern stock, but a small amount, perhaps just a stripe below window level on an otherwise clean, minimal livery might be an interesting and unusual idea.

The vestibules on the 800s are almost teak effect already...

 

[w0033944]

^^Done well.

 

[w0033944]

The vestibules on the 800s are almost teak effect already...

Are they? Thanks for the info. - I don't use the railways as I'm disabled, though I obviously have a great deal of interest in, and affection for them.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Indeed - if it's of any interest, I prefer the idea of vertical integration with running powers where necessary to re-Nationalisation. However, I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable on the details of the current financial situation or the legisltive difficulties of the various possible alternatives to the current model to feel confident in arguing for that preference beyond suspecting it might be more politically expedient for a Conservative government (which I expect to last for at least another decade given the shambolic nature of political opposition in this country) to back a privatised alternative to the current set-up rather than a Bevan-esque move to nationalise the system.

The muddle-through will continue, I agree.

The problem is the underlying question, i.e. what is the best structure for the railways, is incredibly complicated, and the railway system is fundamentally an expensive beast.

 

[Domh245]

I think it would be nice for the livery to reference that of the LNER during the Grouping era as they're already doing so with their decision to use the brand. Many passengers won't know what the name references and will just think that it's a memorable acronym; similarly, using a small amount of Apple Green or teak-effect surely won't offend the aesthetic preferences of those who are unaware of the history of the ECML, yet would act as a knowing indication to those who get the reference. I agree that modern tastes demand something other than a copy of the old livery, and I think it would be unsuited to contemporary stock, but, for me, the Virgin red suggests a mere rebranding rather than a new era for the ECML, and, for those who take an interest in historical matters, red is much more a West Coast/Midlands livery.

Teak effect vinyl will look rubbish on the outside of an 80x. Those who are aware of ECML history will get the reference, but those who don't will just think it looks old-timey - why would you make something that is obviously modern look deliberately old. You could make it brown, but that is just uninspiring. I would also suggest that making it green is problematic as well, after all the similarly named LNWR is primarily dark and light green on a white base - making LNER green as well would be unhelpful in terms of making the two distinct.

 

[w0033944]

The problem is the underlying question, i.e. what is the best structure for the railways, is incredibly complicated, and the railway system is fundamentally an expensive beast.

Hence why I don't promote my views on the subject - it's beyond me!

 

[cactustwirly]

Teak effect vinyl will look rubbish on the outside of an 80x. Those who are aware of ECML history will get the reference, but those who don't will just think it looks old-timey - why would you make something that is obviously modern look deliberately old. You could make it brown, but that is just uninspiring. I would also suggest that making it green is problematic as well, after all the similarly named LNWR is primarily dark and light green on a white base - making LNER green as well would be unhelpful in terms of making the two distinct.

GWR is also green.
So you could make green the colour scheme of the new nationalised railway...

 

[Emblematic]

^^Done well.

I still think it would end up more Griswold than Great Northern

 

[urpert]

Are they? Thanks for the info. - I don't use the railways as I'm disabled, though I obviously have a great deal of interest in, and affection for them.

I suspect they were going for ‘light oak’ or something. But they are noticeably wood(a-effect) clad and so vaguely reminiscent of an early Mk2.

 

[w0033944]

Teak effect vinyl will look rubbish on the outside of an 80x. Those who are aware of ECML history will get the reference, but those who don't will just think it looks old-timey - why would you make something that is obviously modern look deliberately old. You could make it brown, but that is just uninspiring. I would also suggest that making it green is problematic as well, after all the similarly named LNWR is primarily dark and light green on a white base - making LNER green as well would be unhelpful in terms of making the two distinct.

What was wrong with plum and cream, I wonder?

 

[urpert]

I suspect they were going for ‘light oak’ or something. But they are noticeably wood(a-effect) clad and so vaguely reminiscent of an early Mk2.

It’s not a great picture but this will give you an idea:
https://goo.gl/images/18uKCA

 

[kje7812]

^^Done well.

But those are teak...

 

[w0033944]

But those are teak...

Indeed; my point is that, presuming a finish is sufficiently realistic, the pairing of teak with apple green is an attractive one.

 

[Domh245]

Indeed; my point is that, presuming a finish is sufficiently realistic, the pairing of teak with apple green is an attractive one.

It's attractive on old steam stock, but I very much doubt that it'll look good on modern stock.

 

[w0033944]

It’s not a great picture but this will give you an idea:
https://goo.gl/images/18uKCA

This, perhaps?

http://www.wood-database.com/european-beech/

 

[sprinterguy]

Having skimmed through the flurry of postings today, I gather the main issue about this repeated franchising debacle is what colour the trains will be painted.

Well to be fair, the same staff, the same trains and the same service pattern will transfer over to the new operation with little to no fanfare, so all us enthusiast types have to second guess about the new operation is a change in branding. Especially with a whole new train fleet waiting to sweep in from the wings.

Though I'd thoroughly welcome the return of the East Coast rewards scheme.

 

[w0033944]

It's attractive on old steam stock, but I very much doubt that it'll look good on modern stock.

Hence why I suggested that it could be used as part of a modern, clean livery as a subtle reference. Replicating the period livery would be unsuitable for modern stock and tastes, I agree.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ideal livery would be white with apple green window band.

I think DB beat us to that with the previous regional livery:

Silberling coach in white and green

 

[mmh]

That sounds sickly on the slab sided, narrow windowed IEP stock.

White is a terrible colour for trains too, it just ends up grubby unless you're washing them a lot. Just compare the already dirty Thameslink 700s and East Coast white to SWT's white trains and the white base of the Southern livery. Despite any other failings of Govia and GTR they've always been good at keeping stock very presentable inside and out. Thameslink under multiple operators has a long history of being G dirty.

I'm old enough to remember BR's white livery for mk1 DMUs, it's not a new thing - unless you can keep them clean, keep them dark. (White roofs as seen on some Electostar classes are even more silly)

 

[pdeaves]

This was my immediate thought too when I saw his name appear... He has a large metropolitan area to run which has nothing to do with this franchise area - so what's it got to do with him??

Appropriate skills and no vested interest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The vestibules on the 800s are almost teak effect already...

On the inside. That's different.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm old enough to remember BR's white livery for mk1 DMUs, it's not a new thing - unless you can keep them clean, keep them dark. (White roofs as seen on some Electostar classes are even more silly)

White roofs are a practical choice to give ailing air conditioning systems a bit of help. But you can do them like London buses - colour to above visible level and the white just on the centre of the roof. That way dirt isn't as visible.

 

[PR1Berske]

I'm a supporter of franchising and private companies running the railway. I do not support nationalisation.

With that said, given that this is the third time that the East Coast has ended in farce, is it perhaps time to admit that this particular franchise is too big to run as a single enterprise?

 

[387star]

What will West coast be called if virgin lose out ?
Abellio stole the LNWR rather than retain London Midland

 

[Darandio]

I'm a supporter of franchising and private companies running the railway. I do not support nationalisation.

With that said, given that this is the third time that the East Coast has ended in farce, is it perhaps time to admit that this particular franchise is too big to run as a single enterprise?

I don't think so at all, it isn't a big franchise really. The issue is the totally unrealistic figures bandied about every time franchise bidding starts.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What will West coast be called if virgin lose out ?
Abellio stole the LNWR rather than retain London Midland

Something relating to HS2 I suspect.

 

[corsaVXR]

new logo and branding is a bit of a rush job - company is called London & North Eastern Railway, yet the logo and motive effectively point to NW and SE.

Looks like LNER will be here to stay - from the options report:

"Alongside the transfer to OLR, the Secretary of State is announcing two significant business changes:

• A new, publically-owned brand that will become the long-term face of the railway for those who work on it and use it, "

 

[HowardGWR]

I don't suppose the lady in charge of Hitachi up there, (forgotten her name) would like to come back and manage the LNER would she? I don't think she would care much about the paintwork.
I must say it is disappointing how many could not think of anything more important to discuss here.