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Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

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SaveECRewards

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For clarification; so VTEC were going to hand back the contract because it was too expensive. The DfT were going to renegotiate the contract on so they ran it on a management only basis with one of those conditions. They dropped the VTEC branding and they refused that condition. Which seems a pretty minor condition considering VTEC failed.

EDIT: Re read the tweet and it seems to be talking about the original franchise not the new one sorry. Ignore above. - Keeping the rest of the message for posterity

Thanks for keeping the original message. It's given me something to reply to :)

I'm thinking if Stagecoach had been given the direct award Virgin would have been looking for a way to get out of its brand licence with the franchise. As evidenced by Branson or virgin.com saying nothing about the East Coast since February when Grayling made the announcement it seems like they now regard the franchise as a liability that they wish would go away, while Stagecoach would have been happy with the management contract.
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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I saw a tweet from Sam Jessup (former designer of VT (both coasts)) he said the DfT wanted them to keep the East Coast brand (with just a small mention of Virgin) they were having none of it! SOURCE

I don't think Virgin would be interested in anything they couldn't brand in their own style.
Would you mind quoting the tweet? I can't access Twitter as they demand I agree to silly things.
 

Bletchleyite

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Would you mind quoting the tweet? I can't access Twitter as they demand I agree to silly things.

as follows:

Indeed, they even tried to ask us to keep the East Coast brand, adding "operated by Virgin" somewhere subtle. You know how that ended...
1f609.png
 

Roast Veg

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It will end up (c2033) as a glorified Great Northern.
Leeds and anything north of York will be refocussed on HS2 from Euston.
So a similar scope to EMT then? Lots of local services, and one mainline Intercity service serving a few cities that has to wiggle around Thameslink at the London end.
 

HH

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As far as my understanding goes: Virgin/Stagecoach's bid was based on a number of assumptions which didn't materialise. Infrastructure changes necessary to provide the full bid weren't being realised, and there are less passengers than anticipated due to low fuel prices.
Fuel prices have only just increased above the level they were at the end of 2016. If the recent increases indicate a long term trend it will be interesting to see whether this improves passenger journey growth. I'm not convinced that this is the only factor.
 

3141

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Thinking about the title of this thread - has Inter City East Coast been "renationalised"? It's the operation of most of the services on that route that's currently provided by a private company and will shortly be operated by a government-owned company. At least, I think it's government-owned, or is it another private company, which the government has appointed to do the job? In any event, it seems to me that the government has controlled the right to operate passenger services throughout the past 20-plus years. Only the government can award a franchise.

Looking at the situation this way may be a disappointment to those who believe that nationalisation would be the solution to everything.
 

47271

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Fuel prices have only just increased above the level they were at the end of 2016. If the recent increases indicate a long term trend it will be interesting to see whether this improves passenger journey growth. I'm not convinced that this is the only factor.
It seems pretty far fetched to me. It would be interesting to know just how high they thought fuel prices would go to get them to the passenger numbers that they needed to achieve budgeted figures.
 

SaveECRewards

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It seems pretty far fetched to me. It would be interesting to know just how high they thought fuel prices would go to get them to the passenger numbers that they needed to achieve budgeted figures.
VTEC choosing a loyalty scheme that also has a petrol retailer (two actually, Sainsbury's and BP) as a partner meant that their customers were also getting notified whenever BP/Sainsbury's were running a 10x bonus points on fuel offer and they were commonplace in 2015/16.

So if anyone really cared about Nectar they'd be driving, not getting the train.

Just a small example of how clueless VTEC were at attracting customers.
 

SaveECRewards

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I don't mind the name Azuma, also it's useful because if people find the seats uncomfortable they won't be able to say I bet the Azuma would have been better than this IET rubbish.

However, LNER might be going in on the assumption that everyone loves what VTEC is doing. They may be in for a shock to discover that many both inside and outside of the company will be pleased to see them gone.

I'm going to plug two of my blog posts here:
Why Virgin was a weaker brand in the east [compared with west coast]
Why we'll give LNER a bit of time [to sort out the VTEC mess]
 

stantheman

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I guess the red and white coaches will be around for a while after 24 June ( without branding ) or should I get my photos now .........
 

mpthomson

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I guess the red and white coaches will be around for a while after 24 June ( without branding ) or should I get my photos now .........

Given the background colour of the LNER corporate branding, which is the same red that Virgin use I suspect that not much is going to change quickly except delete Virgin, insert LNER.
 

quantinghome

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Thinking about the title of this thread - has Inter City East Coast been "renationalised"? It's the operation of most of the services on that route that's currently provided by a private company and will shortly be operated by a government-owned company. At least, I think it's government-owned, or is it another private company, which the government has appointed to do the job? In any event, it seems to me that the government has controlled the right to operate passenger services throughout the past 20-plus years. Only the government can award a franchise.

Looking at the situation this way may be a disappointment to those who believe that nationalisation would be the solution to everything.

You are correct to an extent. However the commitment by the present government to private train operation, in the context that few if any parts of the passenger railway are truly profitable, means the continuation of the franchising system and a fragmented railway industry. Without this ideological commitment the railways could be reintegrated and avoid the problems that franchising and fragmentation have brought.
 

AlexNL

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Without this ideological commitment the railways could be reintegrated and avoid the problems that franchising and fragmentation have brought.
Not necessarily, as the UK would still have to comply with EU regulations about the separation of track and train operations. This has been enshrined into British law. While Brexit will free the UK from such regulations, there is still a legal process to follow as the law would have to be changed to allow for a vertically integrated company to be created (like the old British Rail). Private operators (FOCs and open access passenger operators) are likely to see a reintegration effort as unfavourable as it would hurt their business. They will try to prevent this from happening through lobbying, legal proceedings and judicial reviews of proposed changes.

A second option would be to renationalise operations, but keeping them separate from the infrastructure. Problems caused by fragmentation are unlikely to go away, as there would still be two companies involved which have their own targets.

The problems caused by the franchising process might go away, only to be replaced by different problems. With DfT wanting to control everything on the railways (up to the kind of seats being put in the trains) and the Treasury wanting a maximum return on investment, would things really get any better if the operations are now controlled directly by the Government? At least the private TOCs can try to push back against some DfT enforced decisions as they realise it could be ill-received by their customers, thus harming their business...
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Not necessarily, as the UK would still have to comply with EU regulations about the separation of track and train operations. This has been enshrined into British law. While Brexit will free the UK from such regulations, there is still a legal process to follow as the law would have to be changed to allow for a vertically integrated company to be created (like the old British Rail). Private operators (FOCs and open access passenger operators) are likely to see a reintegration effort as unfavourable as it would hurt their business. They will try to prevent this from happening through lobbying, legal proceedings and judicial reviews of proposed changes.
A second option would be to renationalise operations, but keeping them separate from the infrastructure. Problems caused by fragmentation are unlikely to go away, as there would still be two companies involved which have their own targets.
The problems caused by the franchising process might go away, only to be replaced by different problems. With DfT wanting to control everything on the railways (up to the kind of seats being put in the trains) and the Treasury wanting a maximum return on investment, would things really get any better if the operations are now controlled directly by the Government? At least the private TOCs can try to push back against some DfT enforced decisions as they realise it could be ill-received by their customers, thus harming their business...

It's not true that there must be separate infrastructure and operations companies under EU law, merely that there is separate accounting for the two aspects of the business.
That's how DB and SNCF and the rest continue to operate as single bodies (though they do have separate divisions which are largely independent of each other).
But privately-owned freight and open access is separate from the DfT franchising system, so whatever happens to the franchises there will still need to be a level playing field for operators (TOC access agreements etc).
Also Heathrow Express and HS1 (with HS2 to come) are not part of the Network Rail asset base or its regulation. Eurostar is another separate body (in largely French ownership).
Most new rolling stock is now maintained by the manufacturer, not by the TOCs, with long-term contracts in place.
DfT is also not in total control of "the railway".
Scotland has its own passenger system and funding, and Wales is close to getting a devolved passenger rail operation as well.
Then there is TfL with its major share of railway concessions (LO and Crossrail), and Merseytravel which controls Merseyrail's concession.
So it's very unlikely "renationalisation" would look anything like a single integrated BR, with all these competing interests.
And BR itself, in its final decade, was essentially 4 different operations (Inter-City, Network South East, Regional Railways and Freight).
 

transmanche

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I guess the red and white coaches will be around for a while after 24 June ( without branding ) or should I get my photos now .........
I don't believe the exterior of the coaches (whether HST or mkIV) has any Virgin-specific branding anyway - logos only appear on the power cars, locos and DVTs.
 

transmanche

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It's not true that there must be separate infrastructure and operations companies under EU law, merely that there is separate accounting for the two aspects of the business.
Exactly, although various Governments have allowed this myth to go unchecked as it suited their agenda.
 

StephenHunter

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The problems caused by the franchising process might go away, only to be replaced by different problems. With DfT wanting to control everything on the railways (up to the kind of seats being put in the trains) and the Treasury wanting a maximum return on investment, would things really get any better if the operations are now controlled directly by the Government? At least the private TOCs can try to push back against some DfT enforced decisions as they realise it could be ill-received by their customers, thus harming their business...

The problem to me isn't ownership, it's levels of investment.
 

pt_mad

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I don't think Virgin would be interested in anything they couldn't brand in their own style.

Could it be fair to say that Virgin could well end up being out of the railway altogether then? As the WCP is proposed to be a generic brand only.
 

SaveECRewards

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Could it be fair to say that Virgin could well end up being out of the railway altogether then? As the WCP is proposed to be a generic brand only.

Although I see the benefits in generic brands I personally don't see the problem if the winner of a franchise carries on using their existing brand as that's already known, of course the DfT might see things differently.

As seen by the percentage share they took of VTEC and also they've also let Stagecoach take the majority of the WCP bid it shows that Virgin are now happy to take the back seat and let others take control. They also gave up majority control of Virgin Atlantic, so it seems like Branson is more interested in new projects at the moment.
 

HH

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Although I see the benefits in generic brands I personally don't see the problem if the winner of a franchise carries on using their existing brand as that's already known, of course the DfT might see things differently.
That wouldn't be policy; DfT would never allow exceptions to policy, because then they could be challenged by other operators.
 

SaveECRewards

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That wouldn't be policy; DfT would never allow exceptions to policy, because then they could be challenged by other operators.
Somehow Virgin seem to get away with things other operators wouldn't. Remember in 2012 VTWC were promoting their petition on their social media channels and even on the departures screens at some stations. Although it does look like the days of one rule for Virgin, another for everyone else is starting to come to an end.
 

Clip

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VTEC choosing a loyalty scheme that also has a petrol retailer (two actually, Sainsbury's and BP) as a partner meant that their customers were also getting notified whenever BP/Sainsbury's were running a 10x bonus points on fuel offer and they were commonplace in 2015/16.

So if anyone really cared about Nectar they'd be driving, not getting the train.

Just a small example of how clueless VTEC were at attracting customers.

I drive when i have to so its helpful for me to know when the good offers are on and vtec don't run the local trains near me either so i don't have a choice of vtec or driving.
 
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Clarence Yard

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Exactly, although various Governments have allowed this myth to go unchecked as it suited their agenda.

And strict separation of duties, which is the bit that really irks Grayling as he wants regional VI companies responsible for the lot. His civil servants don’t and breathed an open sigh of relief when the Brexit King Henry VIII powers were curtailed in Parliament to cover straight transposition only.

The power of someone in a deep alliance to ride both organisational horses is about to be tested via the 4th Railway Package, which will come into UK law later this year.
 

Chester1

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It's not true that there must be separate infrastructure and operations companies under EU law, merely that there is separate accounting for the two aspects of the business.
That's how DB and SNCF and the rest continue to operate as single bodies (though they do have separate divisions which are largely independent of each other).
But privately-owned freight and open access is separate from the DfT franchising system, so whatever happens to the franchises there will still need to be a level playing field for operators (TOC access agreements etc).
Also Heathrow Express and HS1 (with HS2 to come) are not part of the Network Rail asset base or its regulation. Eurostar is another separate body (in largely French ownership).
Most new rolling stock is now maintained by the manufacturer, not by the TOCs, with long-term contracts in place.
DfT is also not in total control of "the railway".
Scotland has its own passenger system and funding, and Wales is close to getting a devolved passenger rail operation as well.
Then there is TfL with its major share of railway concessions (LO and Crossrail), and Merseytravel which controls Merseyrail's concession.
So it's very unlikely "renationalisation" would look anything like a single integrated BR, with all these competing interests.
And BR itself, in its final decade, was essentially 4 different operations (Inter-City, Network South East, Regional Railways and Freight).

Add Northern, WMT (excluding LNWR), Grand Central, Hull Trains, Tyne and Wear Metro to the list of complications to creating a single rail company. There is no chance that the northern councils will give up their new found influence especially after the current debacle. If the Tories think they are likely to lose the next election they are likely to try to undermine Labours plans by devolving control of Northern and WMT and doing as many direct awards past 2027 as possible. One state owned Intercity opperator like DB with the rest locally controlled is probably the best option for renationalisation. If Labour win in 2022 there is a very high chance they will have a minority or small majority in parliament, they won't get legislation for a unified BR past the Tories, SNP, PC and Labour rebels.
 
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