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Virgin Trains East Coast franchise to end 24 June 2018 and is temporarily re-nationalised

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FManc

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There seems to be some changes ahead at Virgin Trains East Coast regarding its franchise operation. I can't seem to gauge whether this will entail a new bidding process or whether the government will solely work with VTEC in coming up with the new contract/partnership.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/strategic-vision-for-rail

East Coast Partnership

"The first of the new generation of long-term regional partnerships on the East Coast Mainline, which will be introduced from 2020 - the East Coast Partnership between the public sector and a private partner will be operated by a single management, under a single brand and overseen by a single leader

The East Coast Partnership will be responsible for both intercity trains and track operations. It will be set up over the next 2 years as a partnership between the public and private sectors, with responsibility for the lines between London, Yorkshire, North East and Scotland.

The private partner will have a leading role in defining future plans for route infrastructure.

The government and the Office of Rail and Road will continue to ensure that robust protections for freight and other passenger operators are maintained.

Further details about the new East Coast Partnership will be set out in the coming months. The government is currently in discussions with the existing operator of the East Coast franchise, Stagecoach-Virgin, to ensure the needs of passengers and taxpayers are being in met in the short term whilst laying the foundations to bring forward the reforms in full under a long-term competitively procured contract".
 
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Domh245

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I still think this is a rubbish idea, and I can't imagine Thameslink/Great Northern, Grand Central, Hull trains, & TPE are that enthralled by the idea of VTEC running the infrastructure they share with them
 

DarloRich

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I still think this is a rubbish idea, and I can't imagine Thameslink/Great Northern, Grand Central, Hull trains, & TPE are that enthralled by the idea of VTEC running the infrastructure they share with them

the devil is in the detail.
 

YorkshireBear

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the devil is in the detail.

Maybe we could try and see how many threads and how many times we could say this between us?

It will depend entirely on how contractually it is set up. My personal opinion on the press release is that Virgin will simply have a much bigger say in the prioritisation of maintenance, renewals and enhancement activities. But as DarloRich says.

The devil is in the detail.
 

DarloRich

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Maybe we could try and see how many threads and how many times we could say this between us?

It will depend entirely on how contractually it is set up. My personal opinion on the press release is that Virgin will simply have a much bigger say in the prioritisation of maintenance, renewals and enhancement activities. But as DarloRich says.

The devil is in the detail.

It depends on how the structure evolves - Does Scotrail fail because of their alliance structure? Are the other TOC's & FOCS's excluded/ ignored within that strucutre?
 

Carntyne

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It depends on how the structure evolves - Does Scotrail fail because of their alliance structure? Are the other TOC's & FOCS's excluded/ ignored within that strucutre?
Definitely not, there's procedures in place too that prevent any conflict between other TOCs and NR.
 

DarloRich

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Definitely not, there's procedures in place too that prevent any conflict between other TOCs and NR.

exactly - that structure seems to have worked. The interesting extension on EC is putting the operator in a leading role in defining future plans for route infrastructure.
 

Wombat

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Seems reasonable. I recall a few years ago Nick Hewer presented a TV programme about the railways, in which the chief exec of Network Rail claimed that the public didn't want a single point of accountability for performance, which I thought was a fairly jaw-dropping statement.
 

TUC

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As long as the regulation is right, there should not be a conflict of interest. VTEC has a huge self-interest in maximising availability of the ECML. The fact that this will also benefit the other operators in no way conflicts with that.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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This is surely partly as a result of the financial difficulties of VTEC on the current franchise deal.
It was clear they wanted to renegotiate the terms, and it looks as though the DfT will do that, but only if the NR side of the coin is included in an alliance deal.
The infrastructure investment can then be linked to future premium returns.
The comparison with the WCML is interesting.
Without an formal alliance, NR LNW and VTWC seem to have achieved something really useful in performance terms:
1.16 Joint working between frontline staff in Network Rail’s London and North West Route and Virgin Trains demonstrates the potential. By engaging closely, they created and delivered shared ideas such as the joint “Perfect Day Challenge” which achieved the best single day of performance ever on the West Coast.
I'd like to know more about the background to that.
I suspect the Norton Bridge project was a big element in the improvement.
 

DarloRich

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As i said in the other thread re the strucutre of the proposed alliance:

No detail of course but the model must be that of the Scotrail Alliance which has different foundations to those of the SWT alliance. Has Scotland's railway ground to a halt because of their alliance?

The important thing is that current Sctorail alliance is based on the following points:

  • Network Rail and the operator will remain separate entities.
  • Employees will continue to have the same employer with their current terms and conditions.
  • Each company continues to be ultimately accountable for their own areas of responsibility.
How that differs in relation to East Coast proposals is the key factor.
 

Alan2603

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It sounds like Railtrack all over again!

So, when Stagecoach/Virgin (or whoever has the ECML franchise) is running a bit low on funds, perhaps that bit of rail that needs replacing can wait a few months (particularly if it is bit that VTEC don't use often, but others do - the slow line through Thirsk springs to mind).

Oh well, as others have said, it will all be in the detail, if the 'average man on the street' can understand 'the detail' that is.
 
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jamesontheroad

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This was published a few minutes ago...

East Coast rail 'bailout' could cost taxpayers hundreds of millions

Wednesday 29 November 2017 14.42 GMT

The East Coast rail franchise will be terminated three years early, avoiding the embarrassment of another private firm handing back the keys to the government but potentially forfeiting hundreds of millions in premiums due to the Treasury.

Under a rail strategy announced by the transport secretary, Chris Grayling, a new partnership model will replace the franchise contract of Virgin Trains East Coast (Vtec).

The train operator, a joint venture led by Stagecoach with Sir Richard Branson’s Virgin Group, had pledged to pay £3.3bn to run the service until 2023 when it was reprivatised in 2015 after six years in public hands.

Instead, Vtec is likely to pay a fraction of that sum, with the bulk of payments due in the final years of the franchise

The article includes some tweets by Andrew Adonis, never afraid to stick his oar in, accusing the government of bailing out another overbid franchise.
 
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cf111

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What about signallers? Regulation could become somewhat politicised if the big painting of The Bearded One which will presumably be placed above all workstations keeps reminding them who pays the bills now...
 
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quantinghome

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Does anyone know what the VTEC's franchise premium payment profile looks like over the franchise? It would be interesting to see how much the government is letting them off the hook for. It's £3.3bn over 8 years but presumably a lot of that is weighted to the end of the franchise.
 

DarloRich

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It sounds like Railtrack all over again!

So, when Stagecoach/Virgin (or whoever has the ECML franchise) is running a bit low on funds, perhaps that bit of rail that needs replacing can wait a few months (particularly if it is bit that VTEC don't use often, but others do - the slow line through Thirsk springs to mind).

Oh well, as others have said, it will all be in the detail, if the 'average man on the street' can understand 'the detail' that is.

That isnt what it sounds like at all - I know this is very dull stuff compared to paint and locomotives but it is important. The post above the one you left explains why that might not be the case.

The final structure and legal relationships between the constituent parts will be crucial. May I suggest looking at the NR/Scotrail alliance in detail and at the work NR have done in devolving accountability and responsibility to their route business units?
 

DenmarkRail

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Could anyone explain this in simple terms?

Seems to me:

-VTEC cut short by 3 years
-VTEC maintaining the ECML
-VTEC having a bigger say on pathing

Am I wrong?
 

quantinghome

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In simple terms, Grayling has allowed VTEC to renege on about half their franchise payments - that's about £1.65bn.
 

Starmill

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@FManc In light of current reports, a more accurate new title for this thread could be "Virgin Trains East Coast's contract to be terminated 3 years early."

East Coast rail 'bailout' could cost taxpayers hundreds of millions

The East Coast rail franchise will be terminated three years early, avoiding the embarrassment of another private firm handing back the keys to the government but potentially forfeiting hundreds of millions in premiums due to the Treasury.

Under a rail strategy announced by the transport secretary, Chris Grayling, a new partnership model will replace the franchise contract of Virgin Trains East Coast (Vtec).

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...se-terminated-three-years-early-virgin-trains
 

Chester1

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In simple terms, Grayling has allowed VTEC to renege on about half their franchise payments - that's about £1.65bn.

The left wing media has deliberately ignored that the state owned infrastructure company had very little chance of being able to meet its upgrade commitments and if it had it would have been through prioritising them at the expense of other lines. There was a risk of VTEC taking legal action and cutting the franchise short reduces the risk for both sides. I expect an announcement at some point delaying the power supply and capacity upgrades planned. If NR had been managed compently then VTEC would have had a choice of continuing the franchise or terminating the franchise with its losses so far and its security bond.
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Seems reasonable. I recall a few years ago Nick Hewer presented a TV programme about the railways, in which the chief exec of Network Rail claimed that the public didn't want a single point of accountability for performance, which I thought was a fairly jaw-dropping statement.

Well he would say that wouldn't he, as he would be that single point!
 

100andthirty

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Could anyone explain this in simple terms?

Seems to me:

-VTEC cut short by 3 years
-VTEC maintaining the ECML
-VTEC having a bigger say on pathing

Am I wrong?
It seems to me that the first of these statments might be accurate. For the second two, I expect there will be a competition and someone, not necessarily a Stagecoach/Virgin joint venture will be the organisation involved
 

thenorthern

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Isn't this news basically that another private operator is struggling to run the East Coast Franchise.
 

jon0844

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Would Virgin want to be part of this? Could it be that Stagecoach would end up going it alone?

I ask because Virgin appear to want easy, safe franchises that don't involve angry commuters. And Virgin would surely not want to be unable to blame Network Rail for infrastructure issues (out of their control) if they ARE responsible for the many things that happen on the ECML that are currently outside of their control.

I can't help but feel that even if Virgin was in some way involved in the train operation, it might make sure it has zero branding with anything beyond its trains and social media presence.
 

quantinghome

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The left wing media has deliberately ignored that the state owned infrastructure company had very little chance of being able to meet its upgrade commitments and if it had it would have been through prioritising them at the expense of other lines. There was a risk of VTEC taking legal action and cutting the franchise short reduces the risk for both sides. I expect an announcement at some point delaying the power supply and capacity upgrades planned. If NR had been managed compently then VTEC would have had a choice of continuing the franchise or terminating the franchise with its losses so far and its security bond.

The history of the railways over the past 25 years would suggest that managerial incompetence does not recognise the division between state and privately run infrastructure. The state will always effectively own the railways - it needs too much subsidy for any other option. Yes, NR must become more responsive and efficient, but there are ways of doing that - mostly having the right staff with the right experience. Constant reorganisation doesn't help this.
 

Starmill

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The left wing media has deliberately ignored that the state owned infrastructure company had very little chance of being able to meet its upgrade commitments and if it had it would have been through prioritising them at the expense of other lines.

Oh, the nasty left wing media. What con artists questioning if taxpayer value has been achieved.

Look at this from a facts based point of view, please. Do you know, for a fact, how much of the infrastructure will not be delivered on time? Some of it, most certainly, will be late. But what, exactly and how late? A couple of months delay on a minor thing is very unluckily to have adversely affected revenue in the order of more than a billion pounds. A major project suspension might. Furthermore, there is not much evidence as it stands of any delays to either infrastructure or rolling stock that have affected the performance of the franchise to date, and yet it has been reported that the franchise is not performing as well as expected.

Events tells us some things:

1. The DfT probably has not kept up its end of the bargain.
2. It is in the interest of Stagecoach not to carry the deal to the full term as they are unable to make the premium payments.
3. The balance of these two effects will be what should determine what penalties Stagecoach have had to pay to get out of the contract.

Think about it, if you were the DfT and Stagecoach wanted you to renegotiate, and your end of the bargain had been upheld flawlessly, you would not cede a centimeter of ground. Clearly, they have done because some of the things the DfT agreed to cannot happen. What we are not clear on is what Stagecoach paid and what, exactly they have got in exchange.
 

DarloRich

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Could anyone explain this in simple terms?

Seems to me:

-VTEC cut short by 3 years
-VTEC maintaining the ECML
-VTEC having a bigger say on pathing

Am I wrong?

We don't know. Yet. I suspect 1 is correct and 2 & 3 are not. VTEC will not be maintaining the infrastructure.

Awful news. We all know what happened with Railtrack...

It is almost as if i am speaking into a vacuum. Is Scotrail another Railtrack?
 

Blanka

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When you cut through the fat this is a renegotiation of the franchise contract that appears to allow virgin/stagecoach to bailout before they take massive financial damage.
 

43096

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The article includes some tweets by Andrew Adonis, never afraid to stick his oar in, accusing the government of bailing out another overbid franchise.
What a pathetic little man. Perhaps he needs reminding that it was under him that NatEx handed back East Coast. They reportedly offered well over £100M to do so which Adonis refused “on principle”. So they went into default and only forfeited £72M as a result.
 
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