Virgin Trains in the wrong?

[Geezertronic]

Guys

What's your opinion on the complaint in this site?

http://www.virgintrains.org.uk

The story began with a passenger being denied travel on a service for which he had a valid ticket, and then accused of fare evasion and made to miss a number of other trains, losing a day’s work. The follow-up to this simple situation has revealed that Virgin has decided to opt out of the National Rail Conditions of Carriage and is determined to persist with fraudulent statements about ticket validity etc....

Nothing to do with me, I just wondered what the score was?

 

[generalvegitable]

somehow I don't think that TOCs are allowed to opt-out of the national conditions of carriage

 

[asylumxl]

They can't opt-out.

That summary is totally skewed once you read the rest.

 

[EM2]

I've read the site and I can't see how he's in the wrong...

 

[yorkie]

I think he is in the right.

Forget Oyster - the medium is irrelevant.

The fact is he held a travelcard, and a BZ2 extention to MKC which is valid.

See http://dspace.dial.pipex.com/town/square/ca14/ALYCIDON RAIL/INFORMED SOURCES ARCHIVE/INF SRCS 2005/Informed Sources 10 2005 p2.htm

"It is up to the Train Operating Company to be able to read your Oyster card, which is a valid travel card. What counts is the message, not the medium."

I think this sends a very clear message to TOCs that they must adhere to the Condiions of Carriage and if they do not, then action may be taken.

Hopefully WSMR will get their act together before a wsmr.org.uk has to be launched...

 

[bengolding]

I'm confused on this issue. I recently also had a monthly Z1-2 travelcard loaded onto an Oyster and got a BZ2-Luton Airport Pkwy return. I was told by the East Midlands Trains staff at St Pancras that I was not permitted to use their service to my destination as they don't stop at any intermediate station between St Pancras and Luton Airport Pkwy, so don't get any revenue from TfL for rail journeys within Z1-2.

Would this not apply in this instance? Virgin Trains are long distance operators with the first stop where customers can alight being Milton Keynes (Watford is pick-up only). Even with the combination stated, since Virgin get no revenue from TfL from rail journeys in Z1-2, are they not within their right to refuse the combination? The OP should have used the xx46 LM to Crewe if they were deined travel on the xx43 VT service, which is only marginally slower.

 

[Max]

I'm confused on this issue. I recently also had a monthly Z1-2 travelcard loaded onto an Oyster and got a BZ2-Luton Airport Pkwy return. I was told by the East Midlands Trains staff at St Pancras that I was not permitted to use their service to my destination as they don't stop at any intermediate station between St Pancras and Luton Airport Pkwy, so don't get any revenue from TfL for rail journeys within Z1-2.

Would this not apply in this instance? Virgin Trains are long distance operators with the first stop where customers can alight being Milton Keynes (Watford is pick-up only). Even with the combination stated, since Virgin get no revenue from TfL from rail journeys in Z1-2, are they not within their right to refuse the combination? The OP should have used the xx46 LM to Crewe if they were deined travel on the xx43 VT service, which is only marginally slower.

It's nothing to do with how revenue is split. Let me refer you to the national conditions of carriage:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover
the entire journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at the station where you change from one ticket to
another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season
Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or
local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

Therefore, as one of the tickets was a season ticket, the train does not have to call before the Z2 boundary. There are examples where you can use a ticket on an operator which gets no revenue for it! However, this revenue data is not public domain information - only the national conditions of carriage are.

 

[bengolding]

Thanks for clarifying that. I guess the staff at St Pancras EMT ticket office provided me with incorrect info then, saying I had to use FCC to Luton Airport Pkwy. Let's hope Virgin see sense then. Obviously, it is the customer-facing Virgin barrier staff at Euston who should have been aware of this from the outset. If they can't do their job properly, how many other passengers have been misled?

 

[glynn80]

I'm getting confused why everyone is quoting condition 19. of the NRCoC

(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

Both Max and the person who produced the website both emphasised in bold "Season Ticket" and "the other ticket(s) is/are not", but crucially did not embolden "which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority"

TfL falls into this category and thus condition 19 does not apply.

A Boundary Zone fare is rather an excess fare and are thus called in the FRPP- "Travelcard Excess Fares". This in effect transforms the ticket held into both a Travelcard and a ticket from in side the zones to the destination printed onto the Boundary Zone fare. It is this that creates the validity for the ticket and not as posted above condition 19 of the NRCoC.

 

[clagmonster]

I quite agree with you Glynn. Incidentally, and I know I ask this a lot, and am sorry if it is a pain, but is this actually in the public domain anywhere? It would be so much easier if FRPP was in the public domain still.

 

[Max]

Oh, of course this is the case! Apologies, to be honest I didn't ever think of Tfl as a PTE!

 

[A60K]

TfL is *not* a PTE or local authority falling under this condition. I don't immediately have a reference for this, but it has previously been confirmed.

 

[yorkie]

TfL is *not* a PTE or local authority falling under this condition. I don't immediately have a reference for this, but it has previously been confirmed.

I have heard the same thing.

I think Jon Morris had a letter from WAGN confirming that a combination of Oyster + ticket to the boundary station, I seem to recall from uk.railway a while back?

That said, when the ticket is from "Boundary Zone X" it is irrelevant if the travelcard is a season or not.

 

[jon0844]

Wagn issued letters to many commuters to say it was okay to combine a zonal ticket (annual travelcard) with a point-to-point ticket (in my case, Hatfield to Hadley Wood) and FCC agreed early on in their franchise that this was still the case.

Many commuters now do this to save money on commuting, but my main reason wasn't actually to save money (it's rather ironic that it's some £300 or so cheaper to do it) but to have an Oyster card so I wouldn't need to keep using a paper ticket in London.

Although I've had some RPIs giving me hassle for sitting in a declassified first class section (never a big deal and almost a bit of enjoyment on an otherwise uneventful journey!), there has never been a situation where a ticket check has been a problem for having two tickets. In fact, I doubt any ticket inspector in about 4 or 5 years has even noticed that the ticket they're looking at is only valid to the boundary - and then they should be scanning my Oyster to check I have a valid ticket for the remaining journey into London!

I always used to show my Gold Card from Hatfield-Hadley Wood at King's Cross before they got the gates and nobody EVER noticed! It's what made me start to believe that if you wanted to avoid all the hassles that legitimate travellers can get on the railway (sadly), you'd be better off producing a fake ticket on your printer and using that instead! (But, obviously I never went ahead with that idea).

 

[paul1609]

I think that legally Virgin Trains and indeed East Midland Trains are right! An oyster travelcard is issued under the TFL ticket conditions not the National Rail Conditions.
There is nothing under the TFL conditions that I can see that allows you to extend the zones on an oyster by buying a national rail ticket.
Where the train stops at the boundary station there is of course no problem you simply change the terms of the contract from TFL to NR at the boundary station.

 

[glynn80]

I think that legally Virgin Trains and indeed East Midland Trains are right! An oyster travelcard is issued under the TFL ticket conditions not the National Rail Conditions.

So was this the case when Paper Travelcards were issued from LU Ticket Offices as well?

 

[paul1609]

I dont have historical terms and conditions for TFL and they were obviously considerably rewritten to introduce Oyster.
However some posters are suggesting that Virgin are opting out of the NR terms and conditions by not accepting Oyster>
What I am suggesting is that whilst Oyster cards are available on some Nationalrail services they are not issued subject to NR terms and Virgin are not obliged to accept them.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

FRPP says:

Combination of Tickets

Day Travelcards can be used in combination with Boundary Zone tickets for journeys which extend beyond the London Fare Zones boundary, whether or not the train calls at the point where the ticket holder changes from one ticket to the other. When used in combination with a point-to-point ticket, the train must call at the station where the ticket holder changes from one ticket to the other.

So, the travelcard is valid on all National Rail services (except Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect services at Heathrow) and the extension is valid by the routeing on the ticket. If that routeing is 'Any Permitted' then it is valid on any train service (except as noted) on permitted routes to the destination.

Atleast thats how I see it!

 

[clagmonster]

That quote sepecifically states day travelcards. Is there anything similar for travelcard seasons?

 

[glynn80]

Something interesting in the FPPP page on Season Tickets is the following:

Using Season Tickets or Travelcards in conjunction with other tickets

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage (Condition 19) allows a customer to use two or more tickets to travel on one journey, provided that one of the following applies:

· they are both zonal tickets (i.e. valid to any of a group of stations in a zone) unless special conditions prohibit their use;

· the intended train calls at the station(s) where they change from using one ticket to another;

· one of the tickets is a Season Ticket, or a Travelcard Season Ticket (but not one issued by a Passenger Transport Executive or Local Authority) or a leisure travel pass and one of them is not. Restrictions limiting the use of any ticket to specific Train Company's trains are observed.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage as posted on the National Rail website (www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf ) does not include, in the third bullet point: "or a Travelcard Season Ticket".

The official version on the National Rail website thus only states for the third bullet point: "one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not."

This is also interesting because, it is not just a case of not updating it from the last NRCoC change in 2006. The previous version of the NRCoC contained exactly the same wording for the third bullet point as the current one.

However the NRCoC does define a season ticket as follows:

(n) “Season Ticket” means a ticket (including an Electronic Ticket) which allows you to travel for a period of 7 consecutive days or longer and will have one or more of the following characteristics:
(i) it shows the word “Season”;
(ii) it shows the word “Travelcard”;
(iii) it is endorsed with a photocard number;

So in effect the quote on the FRPP was not incorrect or adding any additional validity, just rejigging the wording within the document.

I was therefore incorrect in my previous assessment of defining TfL as either a PTE or Local Authority. Having reread a topic on uk.railway (http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk...assenger+transport+executive#0d8260baaad45b26) it is made clear exactly why TfL is neither.

 

[yorkie]

...
What I am suggesting is that whilst Oyster cards are available on some Nationalrail services they are not issued subject to NR terms and Virgin are not obliged to accept them.

"Oyster card" is a medium, it is not a product. There is no such thing as an "Oyster card Travelcard" it's a Travelcard that just happens to be in the Oyster medium.

As Roger Ford put it, "what matters is the message, not the medium".