Virgin Trains is worse than state-run East Coast - again (removal of 1ST quiet coach)

[Mutant Lemming]

So, in my experience, 1st class is essentially a quiet zone anyway. It's very rare to get drunk people, noisy children, annoying electronic devices etc in 1st. The only noise I've ever experienced has been from pretentious people droning into their mobile phones, but even then you can usually just move to the other end of the carriage as it is rarely full on proper intercity services.

Having just this last week gone up the WCML and then back down the ECML I think you were lucky not to encounter noisy children and annoying electronic devices in first on top of the phone calls (enough to drive one to drink and make up the full package of drunk people as well).
There are a lot of annoyingly noisy t**ts out there and it is nice to have a carriage where they are not welcome. I think you under estimate the nuisance and potential for confrontational situations people's excessive noise can be. I think we have all felt like punching some noisy ignoramus on occasion.
Give VTEC time - it will soon become a clone of the West Coast version. There are already some noticeable changes in that direction. The first class lounges for one are not as good as they were. Won't be long before the snack box appears at weekends and the Speckled Hen gets replaced by some cheapo Argentinian cat pee masquerading as lager.

 

[bb21]

East Coast did seem to listen to customers more than Virgin, and so far not much has changed with Virgin Trains East Coast, but I suspect more unwanted changes will be on the way.

I won't be so sure about that. It would seem to me that big changes are already taking place.

I have already had two extremely unpleasant dealings with the new Stagecoach company so it seems that the good days are over, to me at least. Their attitude is worse than EMT in my opinion. I have only ever had two cases which I would class as extremely unsatisfactory dealings with train companies in the last five years, one Southern, one EMT, and Virgin East Coast have managed to match that number in the space of a couple of months.

The state-owned East Coast were much more passenger friendly.

It has already put off one person I know travelling with them further. The problem is that with all Anglo-Scottish routes controlled by Stagecoach companies, there is not much choice and I doubt they would care that much so in a very reluctant first for me, I have recommended that he flies in the future. Air fares are competitive when you book in advance and can be flexible.

 

[Aldaniti]

Having just this last week gone up the WCML and then back down the ECML I think you were lucky not to encounter noisy children and annoying electronic devices in first on top of the phone calls (enough to drive one to drink and make up the full package of drunk people as well).
There are a lot of annoyingly noisy t**ts out there....

This is so true. I'd designate all IC trains as 'quiet' execpt for one coach where all the morons can go, including those who insist on using cheap headphones that leak noise terribly, and business types who think that their train is an extension of their office and which runs just for them. That should free up an awful lot more space for the more respectful people in society.

 

[dk1]

I would imagine the traincrew are more than happy with the decision. Seen no end of tweets complaining of noisy passengers in the quiet coach & there is very little they can do about it apart from politely ask which in itself can be awkward.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I would imagine the traincrew are more than happy with the decision. Seen no end of tweets complaining of noisy passengers in the quiet coach & there is very little they can do about it apart from politely ask which in itself can be awkward.

All that needs to happen are for the notices to curb excessive noise be more prominent particularly at the entrances to the carriage. The message just needs to get across as to what the quiet coach is all about so that people get the same idea about a quiet coach as they do about a library.

 

[DarloRich]

Perhaps Virgin have looked at their booking data and decided that not enough people are specifying a seat in a first class quiet

 

[jopsuk]

It would of course be simpler had the decision been made to make the investment to get all the 390s up to 11 car...

 

[DarloRich]

It would of course be simpler had the decision been made to make the investment to get all the 390s up to 11 car...

Indeed - we could have three extra cattle class carriages

 

[ADRboy]

Have you asked VT why they're doing it?

 

[thenorthern]

Presumably 2nd class was rammed then?

It wasn't too bad to be honest but it was a 9 car train on an 11 car diagram.

 

[yorksrob]

I have to say, on FGW I have not had a single moan about the removal of the quiet coach in First Class, and passengers do spread themselves more evenly. The overall reduction of First Class seat numbers is, overall, a success I think.

The single table seats are a good idea - the only thing we have to do now is make the single passengers sit at them, most of them still make a bee-line straight to the table for four, even when reserved into a single seat...

I'm not surprised the quiet carriage isn't mourned, although I very much doubt there was any real need to remove a first class carriage (a re-adjustment of ticket prices and quotas might have done as well)

With regards to the single seats, it depends what the table is like. Is it sturdy and big enough for a lap top?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not surprised the quiet carriage isn't mourned, although I very much doubt there was any real need to remove a first class carriage (a re-adjustment of ticket prices and quotas might have done as well)

I've often said a proper attempt at a reasonably priced First Off Peak ticket (without swingeing restrictions over and above those of the Standard ticket) would do the job. I still think it would. Other than at the weekend (when I often do Weekend First) there is no affordable walk-up First Class fare on most TOCs.

 

[yorksrob]

I've often said a proper attempt at a reasonably priced First Off Peak ticket (without swingeing restrictions over and above those of the Standard ticket) would do the job. I still think it would. Other than at the weekend (when I often do Weekend First) there is no affordable walk-up First Class fare on most TOCs.

Indeed. I'm sure it's not beyond the ken of our innovative train companies to come up with some off-peak 1'st class offers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. I'm sure it's not beyond the ken of our innovative train companies to come up with some off-peak 1'st class offers.

The trouble is that they are generally more restricted than regular Off Peak tickets - e.g. TOC specific - and they are typically too expensive i.e. more than 1.6x equivalent Standard fare. Thus I won't buy them and the TOC just gets a Standard fare from me. I don't generally do Advances so these are of no relevance.

 

[yorksrob]

The trouble is that they are generally more restricted than regular Off Peak tickets - e.g. TOC specific - and they are typically too expensive i.e. more than 1.6x equivalent Standard fare. Thus I won't buy them and the TOC just gets a Standard fare from me. I don't generally do Advances so these are of no relevance.

Fair point. I suppose that for many Intercity journeys, the off-peak is quite at the upper end for many people, so something that offered a little bit more flexibility than an advance might get a few in.

 

[RAPC]

As a regular traveller on VT (mainly in 1st), here are a few thoughts from me.

1) I personally always choose the quiet coach, mainly as I don't want to be listening to loud telephone calls or excessive noise. Not the end of the world without it, but it is a preference.
2) My employer pays the premium for 1st as it is productive and I get a couple of hours of work done each way. I certainly can't be anywhere near as productive in standard class as I found again heading back today.
3) We do analysis on our corporate account with VT and some of the numbers back up what I was perceiving on price without the evidence. Our average ticket price has gone up 28% this year based on the same trains and similar advanced booking windows. We mainly buy advanced tickets as flexi tickets are ridiculously priced.
4) Our VT account manager has confirmed that they have put in higher prices for advanced tickets on many of the main services we use. There are also fewer tickets in each of the fare buckets, which is in line with less seats available.
5) On the busiest services where VT are mainly selling flexi tickets, if a 9 car is in use, there have been passengers standing in 1st. The 11 car services cope fine as they did before.
6) On a number of the services that are still considered peak, but are the later, less popular services, I have seen 1st class passenger numbers drop a lot due to the prices. On some of these they are typically up to 50% more expensive than before. Simple cause and effect from the pricing.
7) Coach K is not a practical option for a replacement quiet coach. Firstly there is the noise of the kitchen, which isn't too bad, except when you get one of the service teams that seem to revel in turning coach K in to their own private party where they actively discourage passengers from being in there. This seems to be happening more again, with passengers in coach K being either asked to leave at the start of the journey for a fault (which the train manager over-ruled them on as he arrived mid-purge) or for the time honoured 'wouldn't you be more comfortable away from the kitchen?' line.

Ultimately, VT are running a business and although I have been a good customer for years, if they feel they can change their business and make more money then that is up to them. They will lose some of their higher yield business, but I am sure they have factored that in.

 

[All Line Rover]

Ultimately, VT are running a business and although I have been a good customer for years, if they feel they can change their business and make more money then that is up to them. They will lose some of their higher yield business, but I am sure they have factored that in.

They are a business which has a monopoly in the North West to London travel market (London Midland isn't a serious competitor, nor is car or air travel) and which benefits from substantial direct and indirect taxpayer subsidy. If they were an airline I couldn't care less. Ditch 'em. But you can't do that with a train operator, "privatised" or not.

On the point of Coack K, the kitchen noise isn't that noticeable. The kitchen isn't used on the majority of services anyway - only midweek breakfast services, and midweek "evening meal" services excluding the Euston-Birmingham-Scotland route. Employees are one of the few factors within Virgin's control. Quiet coach or not, is it acceptable for 1/9th of a Pendolino train to be "reserved" for the use of the catering crew!?

Coach K doesn't necessarily need to be designated as a quiet coach. The same effect could be achieved by partitioning off a portion of Coach H. Were that the case, you would still expect Coach K to be fully open to fare paying passengers.

 

[tony_mac]

I will certainly miss a 1st class quiet coach; at least it gives you a reason to ask people to be quieter.

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are a business which has a monopoly in the North West to London travel market (London Midland isn't a serious competitor, nor is car or air travel)

You what? You've seen the M6 and M1, right? Car travel (often to an outlying Tube station) most definitely is a serious competitor, not forgetting the fact that not all the journeys are Manchester to London, but many are to/from intermediate stations or beyond London. Air maybe less so (most Manchester-London air travel is to connect onwards from Heathrow). Megabus and Nat Ex seem to also do plenty of business.

On the point of Coack K, the kitchen noise isn't that noticeable. The kitchen isn't used on the majority of services anyway - only midweek breakfast services, and midweek "evening meal" services excluding the Euston-Birmingham-Scotland route. Employees are one of the few factors within Virgin's control. Quiet coach or not, is it acceptable for 1/9th of a Pendolino train to be "reserved" for the use of the catering crew!?

No, that isn't acceptable; staff on duty in my view should give up their seat to a paying passenger if the passenger wants it, regardless of whether there happen to be others available - particularly in First Class. If it's happening a lot, perhaps time to make a formal complaint each time you see it, then it will hopefully stop happening.

 

[Aldaniti]

Once past Preston, driving from the North West to Glasgow or Edinburgh is lovely, less so in bad weather I admit. It's far better than travelling on a packed Virgin Voyager, Pendolino or worse, a TransPennine 185/350. I park the car at Croy station and then jump on a Scotrail service to my destination. The only way I will consider Virgin is if I can get a reasonable priced first class ticket for less than it costs to drive, which is obviously quite difficult except on Saturdays if booked in advance.

 

[SF-02]

Used the train for years to get to Scotland. Fares gone right up so looked at flights. Much cheaper, and even with travel to airports, security etc no difference in time
Now back to flying the past 6 months. Doubt I'll change back to trains now. Too expensiv

 

[Robertj21a]

They are a business which has a monopoly in the North West to London travel market (London Midland isn't a serious competitor, nor is car or air travel) and which benefits from substantial direct and indirect taxpayer subsidy. If they were an airline I couldn't care less. Ditch 'em. But you can't do that with a train operator, "privatised" or not.

On the point of Coack K, the kitchen noise isn't that noticeable. The kitchen isn't used on the majority of services anyway - only midweek breakfast services, and midweek "evening meal" services excluding the Euston-Birmingham-Scotland route. Employees are one of the few factors within Virgin's control. Quiet coach or not, is it acceptable for 1/9th of a Pendolino train to be "reserved" for the use of the catering crew!?

Coach K doesn't necessarily need to be designated as a quiet coach. The same effect could be achieved by partitioning off a portion of Coach H. Were that the case, you would still expect Coach K to be fully open to fare paying passengers.

I would consider the car to be the natural option for all but the essential journeys, that are also in peak periods. Of course it all depends on precisely where anyone is coming from, or going to.

 

[Failed Unit]

I must admit I try to avoid the quiet coach, but having it on the smallest coach seems a reasonable comprimise. It is in the kitchen on East Coast with the same complaints about crew noise.

I have being forced to sit in the quiet coach on east coast a couple of times when the other 2 have no spare seats which wasn't desirable.

I guess it depends on ratio of seats. First class is normally quiter and if people are getting forced into the quiet coach because of lack of seats people will ignore it and defeat the purpose.

 

[Senex]

First class is normally quiter and if people are getting forced into the quiet coach because of lack of seats people will ignore it and defeat the purpose.

First Class certainly used to be quieter, but I'm not sure that's true any longer. If it were possible to provide a decent standard of seating (and leg-room) for Standard Class there might almost be a case nowadays for having Standard and Silent rather than Standard and First.

 

[Flamingo]

I'm reminded of the chap who was noisily on his phone in coach A. When I said to him "Excuse me Sir, this is the Quiet Carriage",
he replied "I know, that's why I reserved it!"

 

[Mutant Lemming]

I'm reminded of the chap who was noisily on his phone in coach A. When I said to him "Excuse me Sir, this is the Quiet Carriage",
he replied "I know, that's why I reserved it!"

A little similar to the family with four boisterous kids and a new born heading from Euston to Manchester a few months back - "We booked the quiet coach so that he (the new born) wouldn't be disturbed".

 

[Iskra]

Having just this last week gone up the WCML and then back down the ECML I think you were lucky not to encounter noisy children and annoying electronic devices in first on top of the phone calls (enough to drive one to drink and make up the full package of drunk people as well).
There are a lot of annoyingly noisy t**ts out there and it is nice to have a carriage where they are not welcome. I think you under estimate the nuisance and potential for confrontational situations people's excessive noise can be. I think we have all felt like punching some noisy ignoramus on occasion.
Give VTEC time - it will soon become a clone of the West Coast version. There are already some noticeable changes in that direction. The first class lounges for one are not as good as they were. Won't be long before the snack box appears at weekends and the Speckled Hen gets replaced by some cheapo Argentinian cat pee masquerading as lager.

I've travelled VTWC, VTEC (and EC), TPE, EMT, FGW and Scotrail 1st class numerous times and only once have I found the noise excessive and probably one other time I'd categorise the noise as 'annoying.' So, going on my own experience from a decent sample size I don't think its an issue.

You get annoying people everywhere, its one of the joys of public transport. I'm starting to think people are either a little intolerant or expecting too much from public transport.

 

[donald2007]

This would not be an issue if all Pendos were 11 car. I was recently on a peak-time 9 car service and First was heaving given its only 2 1/3 carriages. Awful.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This would not be an issue if all Pendos were 11 car. I was recently on a peak-time 9 car service and First was heaving given its only 2 1/3 carriages. Awful.

By "heaving" you mean you had to sit next to someone? Or were there standing First Class passengers?

If the former, please be reminded that your ticket does not entitle you to an empty seat next to you.

 

[Starmill]

These two operators revealed their colours with things like this some time ago. They do it the way they want, and don't care what you think. The same goes for things like seat comfort and spacing, train diagramming and timetabling and what's on offer in First Class. The only way to win is to get what you can, and give nothing back. Don't ask for an improvement, they will not listen to you. At least West Coast will pay you to shut up, East Coast will just write you condescending letters.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the former, please be reminded that your ticket does not entitle you to an empty seat next to you.

Do you deny that you'd be more likely to buy a ticket, especially a First Class ticket, if you knew you would have an emptier train? I probably wouldn't want to buy a First Class ticket if I knew all 6 seats in the bay would be taken, you get less benefit out of it. That doesn't mean I want more of the train to be First Class - although it does mean I think its insane we still have 9-car Pendos, and it looks like they'll stay that way.