Virgin Trains proposed Shrophire - Euston services

[Nym]

My copy of the sectional appendix shows the platforms at MKC are 300m, 45m too short...

If they still had four car voyagers then that would fit it nicely as a 13 car formation.

 

[Erniescooper]

The original post were Virgins plans if they had won the franchise, if that was the case the service would not have been Voyagers but Baby Pendo and loco.

 

[Gareth Marston]

OP- sorry folks that's the detail I've got via SCRUA.

 

[Pumbaa]

The original post were Virgins plans if they had won the franchise, if that was the case the service would not have been Voyagers but Baby Pendo and loco.

Only after 32 posts of wibble do we get somewhere!

 

[jimm]

Re: long journey times between London and Birmingham, remember that the last time Virgin came up with a proposal for a Shrewsbury service that it was meant to be routed via Nuneaton, though I think that was supposed to be worked by 221s. Nuneaton would also offer a quieter spot to couple and uncouple 57s than New Street, never mind trying to find a path between Birmingham and Rugby - while the northbound times from Euston match current West Midland departure times, the ones heading south from New Street do not.

Stopping patterns would surely replicate old BR and W&S habits west of Wolverhampton, so, as has been said previously Cosford (W&S called here), Telford Central, Wellington, Shrewsbury, Gobowen, Chirk, Ruabon, Wrexham, Chester.

Someone asked why Cosford? Two main reasons. 1. It is home to one of the major RAF training and administrative centres, with personnel coming and going all the time; 2. W&S showed it worked as a park-and-ride for the communities between Wolverhampton and Telford, sparing people the need to drive into either place to get a London service.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It will come down to Voyager availability, whether they are run as 5/10-car sets, and where they split/join.
I think VT may have to go back to 57+390 working on some Holyhead services to free up 221s for Shrewsbury/Blackpool.
Paths via Saltney-Wrexham will also be awkward in the short term.
The VT proposed paths used seem mostly to be extensions of existing ones on the WCML.
The Shrewsbury via Wrexham services are pretty useless (to Salopians) as you can go direct to Wolves/Crewe and pick up an earlier train to Euston.
The 1810 ex EUS for instance, is just today's Holyhead/Wrexham service extended rather pointlessly to Shrewsbury.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Don't forget that infrequent/leisure travellers may well prefer a direct train, even if it takes slightly longer. Not everyone has the confidence to make connections, especially at somewhere like Crewe. Not only that, but give me the option of getting on an empty train at the start of it's journey, where you've got a choice of seats and can sit back and relax for the whole journey, or catch one potentially busy service to then change trains onto another potentially busy service. Unless my journey was really that time critical, I know which option I'd choose.

 

[NSE]

I agree with the last point, its similar to when we get the grandparents up to visit, its just easier to stick them on the direct train rather than change. Other family members are the same, if it goes to their destination they'll take it.

 

[calc7]

I agree with the last point, its similar to when we get the grandparents up to visit, its just easier to stick them on the direct train rather than change. Other family members are the same, if it goes to their destination they'll take it.

But they'll be the same people wanting "cheap Advances" - not exactly Virgin's target market or a respectable use of premium rolling stock and resources.

 

[Tracky]

Direct slow trains waste resources.

 

[tbtc]

Don't forget that infrequent/leisure travellers may well prefer a direct train, even if it takes slightly longer. Not everyone has the confidence to make connections, especially at somewhere like Crewe. Not only that, but give me the option of getting on an empty train at the start of it's journey, where you've got a choice of seats and can sit back and relax for the whole journey, or catch one potentially busy service to then change trains onto another potentially busy service. Unless my journey was really that time critical, I know which option I'd choose.

I agree with the last point, its similar to when we get the grandparents up to visit, its just easier to stick them on the direct train rather than change. Other family members are the same, if it goes to their destination they'll take it.

BR used to run some tortuously slow "direct" trains (wasn't there a Glasgow - Portsmouth that reversed at Liverpool?).

The problem is that the people you are talking about are relatively infrequent travellers, so hard(er) to justify catering for.

 

[calc7]

The problem is that the people you are talking about are relatively infrequent travellers, so hard(er) to justify catering for.

Quite - the same "away with the fairies" nonsense we see all too often on here when students/leisure travellers petition for a direct service from their home to their girlfriend's town or where their university is. They want to pay peanuts for it too!

 

[Gareth Marston]

I think we have to remember the political imperative to run to Shrewsbury - a lot of Conservative MP's including a cabinet member in Shropshire plus Montgomeryshire. They have in fairness lobbied hard and the announcement that the interim franchise is going to have through trains before the original awarded one was going to run them shows the clout they appear to have- it also helps smooth over the embarrassment of west coast franchise fiasco.

The Euston-Euston loop is not going to be possible until the Saltney Jnc - Rosset section is redoubled hopefully in 2015. No one seems to have considered dragging a Pendolino from the current EBW diagrams to Shrewsbury as an option.

 

[Nym]

The Euston-Euston loop is not going to be possible until the Saltney Jnc - Rosset section is redoubled hopefully in 2015. No one seems to have considered dragging a Pendolino from the current EBW diagrams to Shrewsbury as an option.

Theres a good reason for that, it's a massive waste of capacity and coupling it up can take a while and isn't very reliable, it would also need to run around somewhere, or run in a complete loop to Crewe.

If the Alstom Baby Pendos and dedicated locos came online with proper design considerations then it would be a much lower risk to run these baby pendo services and attach a diesel.

If this order does come through, one hopes of course that ICWC will incorporate Manchester - Scotland as well and make good use of splitting services on route with a large(ish) fleet of these babypendos. (About 30 odd)

One also hopes that such a design from Alstom or a similar design from Siemens or Bombardier will replace the stupidity of the IEP, but that's another matter...

 

[NSE]

But they'll be the same people wanting "cheap Advances" - not exactly Virgin's target market or a respectable use of premium rolling stock and resources.

Not always. If anything, they're the opposite. I'm not talking slow sevices akin to the Waterloo-Manchester service, but something like Euston-Shrewsbury via Crewe for example is not stupidly out of the way (unless of course units are not available. But if its possible).

My parents for example, come to visit me at Uni, but will not time their arrival at the station to connect to the fast one, they'll time to connect to which ever departure leaves at a suitable time. Providing its not running five hours out of their way, they'll take it.

My mum in particular would turn up at Euston, and if the next train to Crewe was the LM stopper, she'd get it (unless I advise her in advance). Cause she just isn't fussed.

 

[calc7]

But your mum visiting you once a term on Advances or Save Returns is not comparable to businesspeople leaving the capital at 6pm from whom Virgin want to receive full whack in order to make running the service worthwhile...

 

[NSE]

But your mum visiting you once a term on Advances or Save Returns is not comparable to businesspeople leaving the capital at 6pm from whom Virgin want to receive full whack in order to make running the service worthwhile...

Its not once a term, advances or save returns. I'm not asking or advocating that its worth it for one person, however, I know plenty of other people who do similar and would take a longer direct train if it was there. All I was saying is if certain trains could be extended with little hassle (for example a Birmingham train to Shrewsbury, or a Crewe train to Wrexham), then I think it'd be welcomed. I'm not saying that 11 car pendo's should be taken off peak Manchester and Birmingham services to be dragged round to Wrexham against the peak flow, but sometimes passengers would take an extra half hour journey to save changing.

 

[RobShipway]

Its not once a term, advances or save returns. I'm not asking or advocating that its worth it for one person, however, I know plenty of other people who do similar and would take a longer direct train if it was there. All I was saying is if certain trains could be extended with little hassle (for example a Birmingham train to Shrewsbury, or a Crewe train to Wrexham), then I think it'd be welcomed. I'm not saying that 11 car pendo's should be taken off peak Manchester and Birmingham services to be dragged round to Wrexham against the peak flow, but sometimes passengers would take an extra half hour journey to save changing.

I have to agree with your comments above. I am one of those persons that would rather have a longer journey than to have to change trains. For instance when living in Brighton and needing to go to Birmingham I would take the InterCity/XC service from Brighton to Manchseter, which went via Kensington Olympia, to the GWML and on to Reading, then from there it would go via Oxford, Banbury and Leamington Spa. This service would probably take 30 minutes longer than going to Victoria, getting the Tube to Euston to get a train to Birmingham.

However, trains such as the above where not heavily advertised so very few people would know about them which is why I believe the Brighton/Portsmouth services got cut from the Virgin XC timetable.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

You could have the service run like so:

London Euston
Milton Keynes Central
Birmingham New street
Wolverhampton
Telford Central
Wellington (Possibly)
Shrewsbury

with 3 extensions to Chester calling at Wrexham General only apart from one service calling at all from Shrewsbury to Chester

 

[jimm]

But they'll be the same people wanting "cheap Advances" - not exactly Virgin's target market or a respectable use of premium rolling stock and resources.

This would be a different Virgin Trains from the one that is, as I type, offering advance fares from birmingham to London of £7.50 and London to Manchester of £12.50 on the home page of its website, would it?

I think we have to remember the political imperative to run to Shrewsbury - a lot of Conservative MP's including a cabinet member in Shropshire plus Montgomeryshire.

What political imperative? Virgin reinstated through trains to Shrewsbury with much ballyhoo early in the franchise, then ditched them soon afterwards. That both Shrewsbury and Telford had Labour MPs at the time during the Blair era made not a blind bit of difference to Virgin.

The only imperative right now is for DfT not to be accused of letting Shropshire down again and Virgin is of course eager to please but plenty of people in Shropshire remember what happened in the late 1990s - and Virgin's pretty cynical out-of-the-blue proposal for a Shrewsbury service when W&S started up - so if they are expecting their return at the end of the year to be greeted with a tidal wave of enthusiasm by anyone in the county- even the Tory MPs - they may be disappointed.

Judgment will most definitely be reserved and if the through trains are magical mystery tours via Nuneaton, which those timings suggest may be the case, and slower than changing in Birmingham, you don't need to be a genius to work out the likely reaction.

 

[NSE]

This would be a different Virgin Trains from the one that is, as I type, offering advance fares from birmingham to London of £7.50 and London to Manchester of £12.50 on the home page of its website, would it?

Yup, I often find Virgin to be the best for advance fairs. In fact, for the first class service I get and the distance traveled, I'd say they were one of the best TOC's for it.

Judgment will most definitely be reserved and if the through trains are magical mystery tours via Nuneaton, which those timings suggest may be the case, and slower than changing in Birmingham, you don't need to be a genius to work out the likely reaction.

Oh, I agree a mystery tour round say Nuneaton won't be the best way to work it. Thats starting to add to much time. However, if it was to run direct through Coventry and simply become an EBW extension or via Crewe and only add 30 minutes, 45 tops, I think it could work.

 

[dvboy]

I'd hazard a guess that calling points between Birmingham and Wrexham would be similar to the ATW ones, so I'd go with Wolves, Cosford, Telford Central, Wellington (Salop), Shrewsbury, Gobowen, Chirk and Ruabon. Smethwick Galton Bridge is a possibility too.

Virgin won't stop at SGB. They'll stop at Sandwell & Dudley if anywhere between Birmingham and Wolves, especially if it's an extension of an existing Wolverhampton train.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Interesting. Seams to be split forming here between those who think the service should be as fast as possible, and those who think it should border on being an all shacks service!

 

[SprinterMan]

Way out of left field here, but I was thinking it could run as below:

Euston - Nuneaton - Coleshill Parkway - (Sutton Park Line) - Walsall - Wolverhampton - Telford Central - Shrewsbury

This way, it gets quite a quick journey time, Walsall & Coleshill Parkway get through trains to London and it doesn't eat up any paths through New Street. Reopen Sutton Park or Sutton Town maybe, giving Sutton Coldfield through trains to London.

Alternatively, I think it would be great if Chiltern sent a couple of Silver trains up the way W&S used to go, maybe stopping in more places mow MoC is gone, just for old times sake and as a big two fingers up to Branson's lot :P

Adam

 

[jimm]

Way out of left field here, but I was thinking it could run as below:

Euston - Nuneaton - Coleshill Parkway - (Sutton Park Line) - Walsall - Wolverhampton - Telford Central - Shrewsbury

This way, it gets quite a quick journey time, Walsall & Coleshill Parkway get through trains to London and it doesn't eat up any paths through New Street. Reopen Sutton Park or Sutton Town maybe, giving Sutton Coldfield through trains to London.

Alternatively, I think it would be great if Chiltern sent a couple of Silver trains up the way W&S used to go, maybe stopping in more places mow MoC is gone, just for old times sake and as a big two fingers up to Branson's lot :P

Adam

Which clearly demonstrates you don't know the area or the market. The key flow is Shrewsbury and Telford to central Birmingham, which was why BR ditched through London trains from Shropshire and focused instead on slick connections at New Street. Try to extract the modest London flow from the major flow and you are going to bleed money - W&S hoped they could hang on long enough for Virgin's protection from competition to end but couldn't manage it.

The Sutton Park line is a freight route. Fast it isn't. Current maximum speed is 45mph. Unless and until Centro can raise the money to reopen some or all of it for local passenger train, that's not going to change.

Chiltern is a franchised operator, not an open access one like W&S, so can't operate out of its defined area.

Interesting. Seams to be split forming here between those who think the service should be as fast as possible, and those who think it should border on being an all shacks service!

Don't know where you get that idea from. No-one is suggesting calls at Codsall, Albrighton and Shifnal. No-one in their right mind would miss Wellington, while Cosford is a toss-up, I pointed ought why it is worth serving though. And there are only three stops between Shrewsbury and Wrexham anyway. Difficult detours around Birmingham did W&S no favours and wouldn't do anyone else any good either.

 

[RobShipway]

Which clearly demonstrates you don't know the area or the market. The key flow is Shrewsbury and Telford to central Birmingham, which was why BR ditched through London trains from Shropshire and focused instead on slick connections at New Street. Try to extract the modest London flow from the major flow and you are going to bleed money - W&S hoped they could hang on long enough for Virgin's protection from competition to end but couldn't manage it.

The Sutton Park line is a freight route. Fast it isn't. Current maximum speed is 45mph. Unless and until Centro can raise the money to reopen some or all of it for local passenger train, that's not going to change.

Chiltern is a franchised operator, not an open access one like W&S, so can't operate out of its defined area.

Don't know where you get that idea from. No-one is suggesting calls at Codsall, Albrighton and Shifnal. No-one in their right mind would miss Wellington, while Cosford is a toss-up, I pointed ought why it is worth serving though. And there are only three stops between Shrewsbury and Wrexham anyway. Difficult detours around Birmingham did W&S no favours and wouldn't do anyone else any good either.

I know that Chiltern would object, but I would have any trains for Shropshire go through Birmingham Moor Street and Birmingham Snow Hill rather than New Street, that way when HS2 is built passengers are nearby Curzon Street station for that route.

 

[The Planner]

How are they getting from Snow Hill to the Shrewsbury line ?

 

[RobShipway]

How are they getting from Snow Hill to the Shrewsbury line ?

That part I am just trying to workout on a few railway maps that I have available...... But Moor Street I would have said is more Central that New Street with regards the City Centre and Snow Hill would be useful for those in the area of the Council offices etc.....
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That part I am just trying to workout on a few railway maps that I have available...... But Moor Street I would have said is more Central that New Street with regards the City Centre and Snow Hill would be useful for those in the area of the Council offices etc.....

Okay, the only place I see that trains from Moor Street and Snow Hill can get to Shrewsbury is if they where able to join the WCML at Smethwick Galton Bridge in some way?

 

[SprinterMan]

Okay, the only place I see that trains from Moor Street and Snow Hill can get to Shrewsbury is if they where able to join the WCML at Smethwick Galton Bridge in some way?

It is possible, but involves reversing twice.

Adam

 

[barrykas]

How are they getting from Snow Hill to the Shrewsbury line ?

Reversal at Langley Green or Rowley Regis (assuming such a thing is possible) and run via Smethwick Jn, Galton Jn, Soho North Jn, Soho East Jn and Perry Barr North Jn to pick up the Down Grand Junction and proceed via Bescot to Wolves?