Virgin Trains proposed Shrophire - Euston services

[NickJ]

Virgin spokesman Jim Rowe confirmed on BBC Radio Shropshire that the trains will call at Shrewsbury, Wellington and Telford.

 

[Zoidberg]

For those interested, the Shropshire Star article is at http://www.shropshirestar.com/news/...or-direct-link-between-shropshire-and-london/

Extract:

The long-awaited direct rail link between Shropshire and London could be up-and-running by the end of the year as plans have now been submitted to the government, it was revealed today.

EDIT: This post was made before the thread which post #80 headed was merged with this one.

 

[8J]

I am still confused as to what stock they are going to use to run this service? Re-introduce the 90+MK3?

 

[Rich McLean]

I am still confused as to what stock they are going to use to run this service? Re-introduce the 90+MK3?

I would assume a Class 221, maybe coupled/split to/from another unit at Wolves or New Street.

Thinking about it, if they review the timings, a portion coming from shropshire arrives in Wolves and attaches to a Class 221 arriving from Scotland, and then continuing to Euston via BHM and 2x221s. However, then there would not be a portion available to work the return Anglo-Scot, unless they had a Pendo at Oxley to make the return run.

Then 2x221s to Wolves, which split, 5 cars to Telford, and 5 cars to Scotlands

However, easier said than done

 

[The Planner]

If it is 11.33 then it is following the Glasgow, which makes sense as that is right away Warrington. Considering the next is the 11.40 Picc which is non stop Crewe, I can see this Shrewsbury doing MK only. Rugby may be tight with the 11.40 up it's backside. That puts it at Cov around 12.33ish which puts it behind the LM stopper into New St which would be an odd thing to do. If it goes non stop to Cov it may beat the Bomo - Man Picc XC and get infront. Will need to do some digging.

 

[calc7]

If it is 11.33 then it is following the Glasgow, which makes sense as that is right away Warrington. Considering the next is the 11.40 Picc which is non stop Crewe, I can see this Shrewsbury doing MK only. Rugby may be tight with the 11.40 up it's backside. That puts it at Cov around 12.33ish which puts it behind the LM stopper into New St which would be an odd thing to do. If it goes non stop to Cov it may beat the Bomo - Man Picc XC and get infront. Will need to do some digging.

Wouldn't it be pulled off onto the Birmingham Line at Hillmorton Jct, thus making a call at Rugby entirely feasible and of no consequence to the Manchester via Crewe up its arse?

 

[Pumbaa]

Wouldn't it be pulled off onto the Birmingham Line at Hillmorton Jct, thus making a call at Rugby entirely feasible and of no consequence to the Manchester via Crewe up its arse?

No, the turn-out at Rugby is only 40mph for the Down Coventry (?) line and can chew up the headway. Whereas flying through the turnout is at 100 something, 105 I think? Plus the turnout is protected, with signals spaced for 125mph. It's a long section. And obviously MK poses no problem as its 125 straight through.

For comparison, the xx03 calling at Rugby will often cause the xx07 behind it to get checked south of Rugby. This would be exacerbated by the xx33 in this case being a 221, from memory it takes 3 mins longer than a 390 to do London - Rugby. So you have the same situation.

 

[TomJ93]

Wouldn't it be pulled off onto the Birmingham Line at Hillmorton Jct, thus making a call at Rugby entirely feasible and of no consequence to the Manchester via Crewe up its arse?

Wouldn't it just be an extension of the XX:22 (EUS) nb XX:47 (WVR) southbound, calling at WTJ, COV, BHI, SAD, meaning no more paths needed. As it stands this service is currently 221 formed on the 16:47 northbound departure.

 

[Pumbaa]

Wouldn't it just be an extension of the XX:22 (EUS) nb XX:47 (WVR) southbound, calling at WTJ, COV, BHI, SAD, meaning no more paths needed. As it stands this service is currently 221 formed on the 16:47 northbound departure.

No - look overleaf, 1133 and 1837. Entirely new services.

 

[calc7]

Wouldn't it just be an extension of the XX:22 (EUS) nb XX:47 (WVR) southbound, calling at WTJ, COV, BHI, SAD, meaning no more paths needed. As it stands this service is currently 221 formed on the 16:47 northbound departure.

That would have been my first thought, but as mentioned by other contributors, they are using a spare path.

 

[cle]

What is the story with these paths in other hours? If they can depart Euston at 11/xx33 and 18/xx37 then surely other trains can depart in other hours? The 1837 perhaps not as peak, but what about 1033, 1233, 1333 etc... ?

 

[tbtc]

No - look overleaf, 1133 and 1837. Entirely new services.

Presumably formed by "undoubling" a doubled up Voyager set from Chester runs?

What is the story with these paths in other hours? If they can depart Euston at 11/xx33 and 18/xx37 then surely other trains can depart in other hours? The 1837 perhaps not as peak, but what about 1033, 1233, 1333 etc... ?

Is this the "tenth path" (rumoured for Liverpool or Blackpool, depending on who you believe)?

 

[JonathanH]

Presumably formed by "undoubling" a doubled up Voyager set from Chester runs?



Is this the "tenth path" (rumoured for Liverpool or Blackpool, depending on who you believe)?

xx33 already used for 1333 Lancaster on Fridays, 1633 Preston and 1733/1833 Liverpool.

 

[Morden Via CHX]

If it is 11.33 then it is following the Glasgow, which makes sense as that is right away Warrington. Considering the next is the 11.40 Picc which is non stop Crewe, I can see this Shrewsbury doing MK only. Rugby may be tight with the 11.40 up it's backside. That puts it at Cov around 12.33ish which puts it behind the LM stopper into New St which would be an odd thing to do. If it goes non stop to Cov it may beat the Bomo - Man Picc XC and get infront. Will need to do some digging.

Reading this, I think the best option is to actually run it non stop to Coventry. I'm not sure there'd be enough demand for MKC/Rugby to Shrewsbury to justify the 11.40 getting signal checked approaching either.

 

[steve099]

This Shropshire Council press release states via Stafford and Rugby. Would be an odd mistake to make so I assume it's correct but perhaps calls at Wolverhampton too (where the train would reverse!?). If it is via Stafford, it means Route Birmingham tickets would not allow use on both direct and indirect services via Brum.

The proposed route could be active from December 2013, and would cut journey times from Shrewsbury to London Euston and vice versa down to only 2 hours 12 minutes. Virgin Trains have proposed a running both a Monday to Saturday service, and a Sunday service.

Mondays to Saturdays an early morning and mid-afternoon departure from Shrewsbury are part of the plans, while trains leaving London are planned for late morning and early evening. On Sundays there would only be one departure from Shrewsbury and one departure from London Euston, at as-yet unspecified times. The proposed services will call at Wellington, Telford Central, Stafford and Rugby.

http://shropshire.gov.uk/news/2013/02/virgin-trains-submit-plans-for-direct-shrewsbury-london-service/

 

[Wath Yard]

This Shropshire Council press release states via Stafford and Rugby. Would be an odd mistake to make so I assume it's correct but perhaps calls at Wolverhampton too (where the train would reverse!?).

If it lists 4 stations it seems unlikely they would miss the 5th, so I doubt it would call at Wolverhampton and one reversal (at Stafford) would be weird, 2 reversals (Stafford and Wolverhampton) would just be bizarre. Looks like via the Oxley curve.

I hope there are plenty of through passengers from Shropshire - London, because from that calling pattern that is just about the only place anybody would want to go to.

 

[Rich McLean]

This Shropshire Council press release states via Stafford and Rugby. Would be an odd mistake to make so I assume it's correct but perhaps calls at Wolverhampton too (where the train would reverse!?). If it is via Stafford, it means Route Birmingham tickets would not allow use on both direct and indirect services via Brum.



http://shropshire.gov.uk/news/2013/02/virgin-trains-submit-plans-for-direct-shrewsbury-london-service/

In that case, it will reverse at Wolves and go via Stafford and the TV. This is probably down to Pathing through the West Midlands, but I still can't understand why they just don't extend a Wolerhampton Termination and run it Class 221 vice 390 (of course it would need to be ideally doubled as far as New Street)

 

[western Champion]

No, the turn-out at Rugby is only 40mph for the Down Coventry (?) line and can chew up the headway. Whereas flying through the turnout is at 100 something, 105 I think? Plus the turnout is protected, with signals spaced for 125mph. It's a long section. And obviously MK poses no problem as its 125 straight through.

For comparison, the xx03 calling at Rugby will often cause the xx07 behind it to get checked south of Rugby. This would be exacerbated by the xx33 in this case being a 221, from memory it takes 3 mins longer than a 390 to do London - Rugby. So you have the same situation.

Pumbaa, your information is complete rubbish as usual !

Rugby down fast to platform 1 is 60mph.
Rugby platform 1 to down Coventry is 75mph.
Rugby down fast to down Coventry is 125mph EPS. 100mph PS.

 

[The Planner]

He may have the speeds wrong, but the fact still remains that the turn out to platform 1 is hideously approach controlled and will knock the stuffing out of any train. Platform 2 is no better unless the forward route is set towards Brinklow as the approach then gets flashing yellows, if not, the same applies.

 

[All Line Rover]

I hope there are plenty of through passengers from Shropshire - London, because from that calling pattern that is just about the only place anybody would want to go to.

Whilst not ideal, a Shrewsbury to Rugby Anytime Return would be valid on this service (£31.60), even though not normally valid via Stafford. When combined with a Rugby to London Anytime Return (£123), this results in a return price of £154.60, which is less than the £204 'Route Birmingham' Anytime Return.

Should this service come to fruition, one would hope that Virgin introduce a 'Route Penkridge' Anytime Return at £204 (a Stafford to London Anytime Return costs £197 so this wouldn't mess up their pricing structure). Such a ticket would remain valid via Birmingham as this route would cost the same price.

Alternatively, Virgin could consider introducing some sensibly priced (by which I mean sub three figure) Advance fares.

Or they could just reduce the price of Stafford to London fares...

 

[Pumbaa]

Pumbaa, your information is complete rubbish as usual !

Rugby down fast to platform 1 is 60mph.
Rugby platform 1 to down Coventry is 75mph.
Rugby down fast to down Coventry is 125mph EPS. 100mph PS.

I knew you or someone else would be along soon enough - I couldn't be arsed dragging out the SA and plumped for hazy memory. I'd have hoped the "?" and "I think" clarified that Anyway, apologies for the duff info.

 

[SprinterMan]

This Shropshire Council press release states via Stafford and Rugby. Would be an odd mistake to make so I assume it's correct but perhaps calls at Wolverhampton too (where the train would reverse!?). If it is via Stafford, it means Route Birmingham tickets would not allow use on both direct and indirect services via Brum.



http://shropshire.gov.uk/news/2013/02/virgin-trains-submit-plans-for-direct-shrewsbury-london-service/

http://goo.gl/maps/WFe8x

As can be seen here, there is a chord between the line to Shrewsbury and the line to Stafford, mostly used by things coming out of Oxley, that avoids Wolverhampton, so I assume this will be used.

I imagine the route will be:
London Euston - Rugby - Stafford (reverse) - Bushbury Junction - Oxley Junction - Telford Central - Wellington - Shrewsbury

There have been calls to reinstate the Shrewsbury-Stafford line in recent years, so I assume VT marketing will have a field day claiming how they have done it without having to build any new lines

Makes you think though, will it be overtaken by the Glasgow train while it is stopped at Rugby?

Adam

 

[MCR247]

If it leaves at xx33 it'll already be behind it?

 

[western Champion]

He may have the speeds wrong, but the fact still remains that the turn out to platform 1 is hideously approach controlled and will knock the stuffing out of any train. Platform 2 is no better unless the forward route is set towards Brinklow as the approach then gets flashing yellows, if not, the same applies.

As you are probably aware the 'standard' does not allow for multiple routes from a flashing yellow sequence unless preliminary route indicators (PRI's) are used. Since the down fast approach to Rugby already has a PRI relevant to Rugby Trent Valley Junction the approach controlled signal sequence to platform one remains.

Now IMHO (from a drivers point of view) the flashing yellow sequence would be better utilized if it applied to platform one and the approach control was used for plarform two.

 

[The Planner]

Totally agree, and I don't understnad why West Coast Route Mod didn't do that.

 

[the sniper]

http://goo.gl/maps/WFe8x

As can be seen here, there is a chord between the line to Shrewsbury and the line to Stafford, mostly used by things coming out of Oxley, that avoids Wolverhampton, so I assume this will be used.

What uses it coming out of Oxley? There's no OHL on the chord. As far as I know it was/is just there for the merry go round coal traffic to Ironbridge.

It may be, but to my eye it doesn't look like it's up to taking passenger trains.

 

[western Champion]

What uses it coming out of Oxley? There's no OHL on the chord. As far as I know it was/is just there for the merry go round coal traffic to Ironbridge.

It may be, but to my eye it doesn't look like it's up to taking passenger trains.

The only passenger use it sees is the odd diversion or special. Speed is 15mph end to end both ways and believe me you wouldn't want to go much faster.

 

[SprinterMan]

What uses it coming out of Oxley? There's no OHL on the chord. As far as I know it was/is just there for the merry go round coal traffic to Ironbridge.

It may be, but to my eye it doesn't look like it's up to taking passenger trains.

Oops, my mistake, sorry for the duff info.

The only passenger use it sees is the odd diversion or special. Speed is 15mph end to end both ways and believe me you wouldn't want to go much faster.

At least there isn't a load of red tape stopping it from taking passenger trains altogether.

Adam

 

[WatcherZero]

Its interesting Virgin bringing in the Shropshire service, however when they were given the extension they said they would still try and bring in the limited Blackpool services, have we heard anything on that?

 

[western Champion]

As you are probably aware the 'standard' does not allow for multiple routes from a flashing yellow sequence unless preliminary route indicators (PRI's) are used. Since the down fast approach to Rugby already has a PRI relevant to Rugby Trent Valley Junction the approach controlled signal sequence to platform one remains.

Now IMHO (from a drivers point of view) the flashing yellow sequence would be better utilized if it applied to platform one and the approach control was used for plarform two.

I've inquired and I was part wrong. There is NO flashing yellow sequence from the down fast to either platform one or platform two. The only flashing yellow sequence approaching Rugby on the down fast, and this is what I was mixing it up with, is from the down fast to down slow at Hillmorton.

VT have asked NR, who have to date said no, for a flashing yellow sequence from the down fast to platforms one AND two. The PIR issue I quoted above wouldn't be an issue because the PIR wouldn't in this case be lit because it applies to routes from Rugby Trent Valley Junction.
What is stopping them doing it is the standard says where flashing yellows are for multiple routes there can only be a 10mph speed difference in the diverging routes. At Rugby it is 60mph to platform one and 40mph to platform two. VT have suggested the speed to platform one be reduced to 50mph or the speed to platform two be increased to 50mph. NR are also saying they don't want two overlapping flashing yellow sequences, Hillmorton and approach to Rugby.