Virgin Trains proposed Virgin Value Class

[DB]

Looking at some of the things that people thought were possible early in the privatisation process, I wouldn't be surprised if nobody checked - or someone did but was ignored when they tried to raise a concern.

Virgin particularly - I've seen one of their 'artist's impressions of an HST revamp, with what appears to be a load of cladding on the outside, including over the wheels. Err - loading gauge? Plaftform positions?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Isn't that what First's East Coast Trains are aiming for? And what about the erstwhile 'Megatrain' which was originally intended to corral passengers "in a designated area of the train" - which sounds very much like another class in all but name. Was Megatrain discontinued simply because Stagecoach lost all its franchises, or was it dead before?

I believe it was Stagecoach losing their franchises.

 

[edwin_m]

I believe it was Stagecoach losing their franchises.

Didn't Megatrain continue with EMR? No idea if it's still going.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Didn't Megatrain continue with EMR? No idea if it's still going.

I think it did briefly, but it doesn't seem to exist any more.

 

[edwin_m]

I think it did briefly, but it doesn't seem to exist any more.

Shortly before the end of EMT I heard one of their conductors telling a passenger it was going to end, but then it didn't. However I guessed it would not last long, particularly as the space on off-peak Nottingham services that it filled at marginal cost is unlikely to exist after the HSTs go.

 

[hexagon789]

Looking at some of the things that people thought were possible early in the privatisation process, I wouldn't be surprised if nobody checked - or someone did but was ignored when they tried to raise a concern.

They may not have, but I think it would have fitted but not been very comfortable.

 

[Journeyman]

I think there's two types of three-class operation - really all we've seen in this country is the "two and a half" class option, where effectively you provide two tiers of service within one type of seating. No-one has genuinely attempted three types of seating layout, at least not since the Victorian era!

I'm guessing the answer to this is no, but was the proposed layout ever mocked up?

 

[Howardh]

I think there's two types of three-class operation - really all we've seen in this country is the "two and a half" class option, where effectively you provide two tiers of service within one type of seating. No-one has genuinely attempted three types of seating layout, at least not since the Victorian era!

I'm guessing the answer to this is no, but was the proposed layout ever mocked up?

I suppose if there was one carriage of 3 x 2 it could be used soley for short-hops, example Manchester - Wilmslow or Carlisle - Penrith so pax with longer journeys on pre-booked seats get the usual 2nd/1st seats, but those on short journeys can have the smaller ones.
Wouldn't fancy Glasgow-London on 3 x 2 no matter how cheap though!

 

[Journeyman]

I suppose if there was one carriage of 3 x 2 it could be used soley for short-hops, example Manchester - Wilmslow or Carlisle - Penrith so pax with longer journeys on pre-booked seats get the usual 2nd/1st seats, but those on short journeys can have the smaller ones.
Wouldn't fancy Glasgow-London on 3 x 2 no matter how cheap though!

Absolutely not! Even on short journeys, it isn't pleasant, and I can see why it rapidly became an issue when Portsmouth commuters lost 444s and got 450s instead. The Southern 377s that have a mixture of 3+2 and 2+2 show what a contrast it creates - the 2+2 seats in early Electrostars are very comfortable, and it's extraordinary they charge the same for the vastly inferior 3+2, which I avoid like the plague.

I think if Virgin had done this, it would have had to be extremely cheap indeed to work, and possibly aim at attacking National Express and Megabus, where price is much more important than comfort.

That said, would a decently refurbished 317, 319 or 321 make an acceptable train for a cheap-as-chips open access operation? Possibly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That said, would a decently refurbished 317, 319 or 321 make an acceptable train for a cheap-as-chips open access operation? Possibly.

One of the most comfortable interiors I've had the pleasure of using is the ex Brighton Express 319 layout with 2+2, generously spaced Chapman seating. That said, that's rather an anathema to the 3+2 Voyager thing as (a) it isn't 3+2, and (b) it's lower density than Voyager standard anyway.

Would an as-built 319 be acceptable for that? Well, I suppose 3+2 350/2s end up on the Crewe and Brum semifasts, which are "de-facto" open access services in the way they compete with Avanti even if operated by a franchised TOC.

 

[hexagon789]

I think if Virgin had done this, it would have had to be extremely cheap indeed to work, and possibly aim at attacking National Express and Megabus, where price is much more important than comfort.

I think they might have better luck paying travellers to use them!

 

[Doctor Fegg]

I think there's two types of three-class operation - really all we've seen in this country is the "two and a half" class option, where effectively you provide two tiers of service within one type of seating. No-one has genuinely attempted three types of seating layout, at least not since the Victorian era!

At a pinch you could say that Thames 166s had three types of seating layout (3+2 standard, 2+2 standard with tables, 2+2 first), but they weren't sold as three separate products, of course.

But I prefer Chiltern's Clubman approach: one single, comfortable seating layout. End of.

 

[Djgr]

It's fascinating to discover that Virgin Value was supposed to be an entire class, not just a ticket type.

Speaking of other 'three class' attempts, may I offer an honorable mention of 'Silver Standard' class carriages on Intercity in the '90s, for holders of full-price standard tickets only with the benefits of antimacassars and free tea/coffee if I remember correctly?


Isn't that what First's East Coast Trains are aiming for? And what about the erstwhile 'Megatrain' which was originally intended to corral passengers "in a designated area of the train" - which sounds very much like another class in all but name. Was Megatrain discontinued simply because Stagecoach lost all its franchises, or was it dead before?

If I remember correctly Silver Standard used Standard Class carriages in the Peak and (surplus) First Class carriages in the Off Peak. What could possibly go wrong with that concept?

 

[Journeyman]

Didn't CrossCountry have some sort of premium standard offering at one time? I think it involved pre-ordered meals served at seat. I remember seeing it on an HST around 95 or 96.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Didn't CrossCountry have some sort of premium standard offering at one time? I think it involved pre-ordered meals served at seat. I remember seeing it on an HST around 95 or 96.

Yes, there was a scheme called Voyager (which I guess is the origin of that name), which was in the end Standard coach turned round the wrong way to keep it separate. It had compulsory reservations, inclusive refreshments of some kind and was available only for longer journeys.

 

[Vespa]

I used travel to London a lot on Virgin Value ticket, provided you're happy to keep to the timings and seat allocation, it was great, add the disabled railcard it's a very cheap way to travel and staying in hostels, I could have a cheap long weekend than any packaged trips, I couldn't drive to London for that price.

I've since upgraded to advance first class and never really looked back since.

 

[frodshamfella]

Virgin did propose to launch a competing service to Avanti between Liverpool and London, I think the stopping pattern was a bit different, like Liverpool South Parkway was proposed. The fares were meant to be very competitive too. Not heard anymore.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Virgin did propose to launch a competing service to Avanti between Liverpool and London, I think the stopping pattern was a bit different, like Liverpool South Parkway was proposed. The fares were meant to be very competitive too. Not heard anymore.

I suspect COVID has killed it off.

 

[frodshamfella]

I suspect COVID has killed it off.

Very possibly !!

 

[hexagon789]

Virgin did propose to launch a competing service to Avanti between Liverpool and London, I think the stopping pattern was a bit different, like Liverpool South Parkway was proposed. The fares were meant to be very competitive too. Not heard anymore.

Probably not very viable in the current climate, if it really ever was.

 

[greatvoyager]

Virgin did propose to launch a competing service to Avanti between Liverpool and London, I think the stopping pattern was a bit different, like Liverpool South Parkway was proposed. The fares were meant to be very competitive too. Not heard anymore.

It was withdrawn pending publication of the Williams review.

Virgin withdraws open access rail bid

Virgin Trains has withdrawn its application to run open access services between Liverpool Lime Street and London Euston. In a letter to the Office of Rail

www.transportxtra.com

Just out of interest, how much of the virgin XC trains were planned to be value class? Would it have been 1 coach per train?

 

[hexagon789]

Just out of interest, how much of the virgin XC trains were planned to be value class? Would it have been 1 coach per train?

The Standard Class driving car would be been the Virgin Value coach.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Standard Class driving car would be been the Virgin Value coach.

Supposedly this is the reason for it having a worse layout (tighter pitch and only 2 tables) than the others.

 

[greatvoyager]

The Standard Class driving car would be been the Virgin Value coach.

Supposedly this is the reason for it having a worse layout (tighter pitch and only 2 tables) than the others.

Thank you both.

 

[frodshamfella]

Probably not very viable in the current climate, if it really ever was.

Normally I think it would have been viable, as Avanti only have 1 per hour, although they plan to up it to 2 per hour, and to serve South Parkway themselves, so that would have seen Virgin off.

 

[WesternLancer]

Supposedly this is the reason for it having a worse layout (tighter pitch and only 2 tables) than the others.

Interesting - that was the coach that became the 'quiet coach' IIRC, and with one table that actually aligned with a window so it became my table seats of choice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting - that was the coach that became the 'quiet coach' IIRC, and with one table that actually aligned with a window so it became my table seats of choice.

To be fair the priority seats at the other end are my seats of choice on a Voyager...so it's not all bad!

 

[hexagon789]

Supposedly this is the reason for it having a worse layout (tighter pitch and only 2 tables) than the others.

I think it was yourself that mentioned that previously, both layout and vehicle I mean.

Normally I think it would have been viable, as Avanti only have 1 per hour, although they plan to up it to 2 per hour, and to serve South Parkway themselves, so that would have seen Virgin off.

Immediately pre-COVID perhaps.

Without COVID but with Avanti going to 2tph, I'm not convinced.

Now, post-COVID - really don't see it being viable.

 

[AlistairCowell]

Across the pond, Virgin Trains USA are being pulled out from Miami to West Palm Beach services, which means going back to the Brightline branding. With that and a proposed open access train services being axed, this means now that Virgin Trains is dead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think it was yourself that mentioned that previously, both layout and vehicle I mean.

Maybe I got it from uk.railway, then. It's definitely something I read elsewhere, I didn't make it up.