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Virgin Trains railcard offer ended

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bb21

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bb21 many thanks, I'll be heading to the station tonight.

Can you specify an outward date?

Yes, you should be able to buy from the station up to 12 months in advance for any ticket not requiring reservations.
 
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yorkie

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.... I just think its not good losing this concession for peak time trips to Scotland especially with days drawing in , and in run upto Christmas. Does TPE have say, as they compete with Virgin from Preston to Glasgow/Edinburgh ?
Preston to Glasgow is £70.40 for an Off Peak Return (SVR) valid from 0415 onwards, or £39.60 for the Off Peak Day Return (CDR) valid on all trains except those timed to depart after 0429 and before 0930.

You couldn't have used the CDR for travel on morning 'peak' trains because the 'easement' that is being abolished did not apply to CDR fares.

TPE get no say in these fares as they are set by Virgin Trains, however there is nothing to stop TPE introducing their own 'Route: TPE Only' fares at whatever price they deem fit and with whatever terms & conditions they deem fit.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Can I purchase an off peak ticket today (4th September) for travel on the 9th September on a peak time train?
Yes.

You can buy tickets from stations up to 1 year in advance. The T&Cs applicable at the time of purchase apply.

Most booking sites only sell tickets up to around 12 weeks in advance, but thetrainline will sell tickets up to about 4 months in advance which can provide you with an itinerary that is further evidence of a contract. You can buy up to approximately 10 tickets in one transaction (one booking fee)

Not sure of all your travel dates? The return portion is valid for a month, so you could buy 2 returns (one for each direction) on the date you wish to commit to, and you then have 2 x return portions which you have a month to use on any day you wish.

Note the date of printing is shown on the ticket; for tickets bought online and collected this is obviously not necessarily the purchase date. So quite how Guards are meant to enforce this is a mystery.

Note that when you buy online you can choose to be provided with an itinerary, which is evidence of a contract. This evidence could be produced in the event of a dispute.
 

Welshman

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Note the date of printing is shown on the ticket; for tickets bought online and collected this is obviously not necessarily the purchase date. So quite how Guards are meant to enforce this is a mystery.


But the collection receipt, issued by the TVM with the tickets, also gives the date and time of purchase, along with the ticket number, so I suppose the Guard could ask to see that, and cross-check.

But how many actually take the collection receipt along with their tickets?

My wife has three visits to London planned for the near future, and I have made sure the tickets have been booked before the deadline of 6th September, and will also ensure she carries the collection receipts with her.
 

Hadders

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I'm not aware of any requirement for passengers to keep receipts or show them to staff.
 

PermitToTravel

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I have no idea what on earth they were thinking. They should have made the change apply for all travel beyond a chosen date in the future.
 

cool110

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The problem with doing it by travel date is that it would have to be over a year in the future to avoid reducing the validity of tickets already purchased.
 

Welshman

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I'm not aware of any requirement for passengers to keep receipts or show them to staff.

No - neither am I.

It was the only way I could see that Guards might possibly check.
The whole thing has been badly thought-out.
 

Hadders

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No - neither am I.

It was the only way I could see that Guards might possibly check.
The whole thing has been badly thought-out.

I agree that it's back thought out. I suspect that Virgin will not enforce the new rule for the next 12 weeks, but merely remind passengers for future reference. To be fair it shouldn't really be a major issue after 12 weeks, I admit there will be a few examples of people bulk buying tickets at stations up to a year ahead but these will be very few and far between and Virgin will need to deal with these on a case by case basis.

Do tickets purchased at a station have the date of purchase printed on them? I haven't got one to hand so I can't check but if they do it isn't really an issue if correct training is given to staff.
 

island

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They have the date of printing on them, which if purchased at a station will also be the date of purchase.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Given there are under two hours left to purchase tickets at the old concessionary rule and how few booking offices are still open, it is probably academic however.
 

cool110

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Do tickets purchased at a station have the date of purchase printed on them? I haven't got one to hand so I can't check but if they do it isn't really an issue if correct training is given to staff.

As with all tickets the date and time of printing is in the bottom right corner.
 

ainsworth74

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Given there are under two hours left to purchase tickets at the old concessionary rule and how few booking offices are still open, it is probably academic however.

How long have you been on this forum now? We're all about the academic situations no matter how academic they may be! :lol:
 

PermitToTravel

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The problem with doing it by travel date is that it would have to be over a year in the future to avoid reducing the validity of tickets already purchased.

12 weeks would do if they didn't apply the rule for any tickets with a printed date before the announcement of the change, as AFAIA any tickets bought more than 12 weeks in advance are bought at ticket offices where the printing time/date = the purchase time/date
 

LeylandLen

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I am a Senior railcard holder living in the north-west, usually use Preston station . I class a day out in London as arriving before 10am which you cant do now with this concession removed at the ticket price of about £58 on a weekday.On a Sunday the first Virgin train from Preston arrives about 1205 , the first one from Manchester due in Euston about 1055. So have to go on a Saturday which is not always suitable , and obviously many others doing the same making the Saturday trains very busy .

I also wonder if the concession was open to abuse, as it seems to me Railcards could be easy to fake, given no photo ID needed . I carry mine in a transparent compartment in a wallet . Although I have to show at times, its never scanned or physically checked for its authenticity.

Incidentally, I calculate that doing the return trip by 2 year old small car from M6 south of Preston to somewhere like Cheshunt , Herts, a return journey of about 430 miles , costs about £50 ish with petrol about £5 a gallon or £1.10 per litre. Obviously I need to add on cost of parking and a one day Tfl Travelcard, with a discount as I am a senior.
 
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ainsworth74

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I also wonder if the concession was open to abuse, as it seems to me Railcards could be easy to fake, given no photo ID needed .

16-25 Railcard has a photocard to prove identity. Apparently young people and students aren't trustworthy!
 

30907

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16-25 Railcard has a photocard to prove identity. Apparently young people and students aren't trustworthy!

Quite so ☺. Whereas my Senior Railcard is rarely even checked. I must have aged ☺.

Seriously though, a day return to London on the 0758 from Preston (always full in standard when I've used it) is or rather was a bargain. Admittedly I could do it for about £45 from Skipton on Advances....
 

OwlMan

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Quite so ☺. Whereas my Senior Railcard is rarely even checked. I must have aged ☺.

Seriously though, a day return to London on the 0758 from Preston (always full in standard when I've used it) is or rather was a bargain. Admittedly I could do it for about £45 from Skipton on Advances....

Off peak tickets are valid on that train from Lancaster and stations north thereof.
 

neilmc

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If you consider this concession might have been "open to abuse", when I was working a young high-flying manager in the team aged 23/24 travelled to work from Manchester to London two or three times a week using a young person's railcard and saved her (or the company) literally thousands of pounds. Fair do's for her but I don't think it's what Virgin had in mind and I'm sure there were many like her.
 

34D

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If you consider this concession might have been "open to abuse", when I was working a young high-flying manager in the team aged 23/24 travelled to work from Manchester to London two or three times a week using a young person's railcard and saved her (or the company) literally thousands of pounds. Fair do's for her but I don't think it's what Virgin had in mind and I'm sure there were many like her.

I would agree that morally that was wrong, though of course legal.
 

Bletchleyite

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I would agree that morally that was wrong, though of course legal.

I don't think there is anything questionable about it whatsoever. The discount was available without conditions.

It might not have been the intended effect by VT, but that isn't the passenger's problem.
 

Hellfire

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Tomorrow it is possible to buy a single Advance Standard ticket on the 0738 Lancaster to Euston for £77.50. If you buy an single Advance Standard on the same train tomorrow, but from Preston, the price is £144.00. I understand that is because Virgin consider this train to be Off-peak when it leaves Lancaster but becomes peak when it gets to Preston.

Leaving aside any questions of morality, what specific offence would I commit if I bought the ticket online as if I was travelling from Lancaster, but instead boarded at Preston?
 

Bletchleyite

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Leaving aside any questions of morality, what specific offence would I commit if I bought the ticket online as if I was travelling from Lancaster, but instead boarded at Preston?

The same offence as if you short-fared, i.e. a RoRA prosecution for deliberate fare evasion, I would expect, as the T&C of the Advance ticket would make it invalid if you did that, and you would be doing it deliberately to save money. In practice, though, assuming action was taken, you would simply be charged an Anytime Single as if no ticket was held, and provided you paid that there and then I imagine that would be the end of it.

I'm less than convinced about the "train is peak for some and off peak for others" thing, it's unduly confusing. Would not a cap on the Anytime fares, i.e. making it the same from all stations north of Manchester, be a fairer option with fewer anomalies?
 
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Hellfire

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I'm less than convinced about the "train is peak for some and off peak for others" thing, it's unduly confusing. Would not a cap on the Anytime fares, i.e. making it the same from all stations north of Manchester, be a fairer option with fewer anomalies?

Yes, it's a complete nonsense that an off peak train miraculously becomes a peak train 20 minutes further down the line. Obviously VT know that a lot of people get on at Preston so can maximise their revenue. IMHO the term 'peak' should apply to the times the train arrives at its final destination and I don't think 1013 in the morning, which is when that service arrives in Euston, can be termed 'peak'
 

LeylandLen

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Regarding the previous post by Hellfire, surely if 'customers' who might join the 0758 ex Preston either do not travel (Virgin lose a fare) or use a later train , thereby not paying any more to Virgin then the £57.40 off peak fare , make anymore for Virgin , , surely they lose revenue ?

Of course you could pay £5.70 anytime single with railcard and go from Preston to Lancaster and join the train at Lancaster ...arriving Euston 1013 . Obviously you would need to leave Preston much earlier only to pass through to Euston about 0758 !
 

Bletchleyite

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Yes, it's a complete nonsense that an off peak train miraculously becomes a peak train 20 minutes further down the line. Obviously VT know that a lot of people get on at Preston so can maximise their revenue. IMHO the term 'peak' should apply to the times the train arrives at its final destination and I don't think 1013 in the morning, which is when that service arrives in Euston, can be termed 'peak'

That then goes back to what you mean by "peak". The way VT operate, it's more about price differentials (charging each class of customer the most they can get away with) than about how heavily loaded the trains actually are.
 

Greenback

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The way VT operate, it's more about price differentials (charging each class of customer the most they can get away with) than about how heavily loaded the trains actually are.

It's definitely all about revenue maximisation, and not how many bums there are on seats.
 

Bletchleyite

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It's definitely all about revenue maximisation, and not how many bums there are on seats.

Indeed. If you want evidence of that, it's half-empty trains from Manchester, Brum etc calling at MKC to pick up season ticket holders who VT have no need to carry other than the desire for a load of Anytimes then an ORCATS raid.
 

thedbdiboy

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The same offence as if you short-fared, i.e. a RoRA prosecution for deliberate fare evasion, I would expect, as the T&C of the Advance ticket would make it invalid if you did that, and you would be doing it deliberately to save money. In practice, though, assuming action was taken, you would simply be charged an Anytime Single as if no ticket was held, and provided you paid that there and then I imagine that would be the end of it.

And given the very negative press reaction to instances of this in recent years, I'd be surprised even f that happened. Staff are instructed to allow boarding at a later station/alighting at an earlier station with Advance fares unless there is clear evidence of systemic abuse.
 

Hellfire

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And given the very negative press reaction to instances of this in recent years, I'd be surprised even f that happened. Staff are instructed to allow boarding at a later station/alighting at an earlier station with Advance fares unless there is clear evidence of systemic abuse.

Is there some evidence to support the statement that staff have been instructed to allow boarding at a later station? Given that, in the example I quoted, the saving is almost 50%, I might test the theory.
 

Bletchleyite

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And given the very negative press reaction to instances of this in recent years, I'd be surprised even f that happened. Staff are instructed to allow boarding at a later station/alighting at an earlier station with Advance fares unless there is clear evidence of systemic abuse.

Has it now backed down to "systemic abuse"? I thought it was previously "provided there was no evidence it had been deliberately done to save money", which in this case *would* be fairly obvious.
 
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