Virgin Trains ticket row

[pemma]

Virgin Trains has been accused of acting like the "Gestapo" after a businessman exploited a loophole to cut more than £250 off the price of his ticket.

Steve Morrissey, 32, the director of a software company, was accused of fare dodging after booking his 7.38am train from Lancaster to London on Tuesday for £93.

But he was accused of getting on the train at the next stop, Preston, 25 miles south, where the price is £350.

The father-of-one was left embarrassed as he was accused by ticket collectors on the train of getting on at Preston, ordered to buy another ticket or be fined and detained at Euston where British Transport Police were waiting.

Mr Morrissey, from Bispham, Lancs, said:
It was not a pleasant experience. You can obviously feel people are listening in. It looked like I'm a sort of criminal. I've never been as embarrassed in my life.

Throughout the entire journey, I just felt like a criminal, all the way. When I arrived at Euston there were three members of staff hiding around the entrance, it was obvious what was going on.

I was just stood there on the platform at Euston with two British Transport Police and three Virgin staff.

– MR MORRISSEY
Mr Morrissey refused to buy another ticket and protested his innocence until CCTV was checked and showed him getting on the train at Lancaster as he had told train staff.

After the 40-minute delay while CCTV was studied he said he was given a hasty apology and allowed to go on his way - but by then had missed his business meeting in the capital.

Mr Morrissey said Virgin staff were cracking down on passengers after the big difference in ticket prices between Preston and Lancaster on the West Coast Main Line was publicised recently.

Another passenger claimed he was threatened with arrest for buying a cheaper single ticket from Lancaster to London, but actually getting on the train at Preston station.

Mr Morrissey said:
It feels like some sort of Gestapo of Virgin trains at Lancaster. The amount of ticket checks, platform and train announcements saying 'there will be a full ticket check carried out now'.

– MR MORRISSEY
He was given an apology from Virgin Trains and initially offered half price tickets for his next journey before being offered two free first class return journey tickets.

An overhaul of Britain's rail fares is to be trialled to make it easier to buy the cheapest tickets after the Commons Transport Select Committee published a damning report which stated that "unfairness, complexity and a lack of transparency" in rail ticketing have been apparent for at least a decade.

Rail passengers faced with eye-watering fares are having to carry piles of different tickets to save money on their journeys.

A football fan last week received 56 separate tickets when he booked a split ticket between Newcastle and Oxford for an FA Cup match on Saturday - tweeting a picture of the deck of tickets laid out on his bed.

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2017-02-03/virgin-trains-acting-like-gestapo-over-ticket-row/

Sounds like he bought this ticket: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=LAN&dest=EUS&grpd=1072&tkt=SVR

EDIT: From The Lancashire Evening Post

The 33-year-old, who is a regular business traveller between Lancashire and London, revealed he normally books well in advance and uses discounted first class fares. “But this particular trip was a last-minute thing and I only booked it the night before and so I looked at the prices and saw a return from Lancaster was £93, while it was £350 from Preston,” he said. “It was a no-brainer really. Going to Lancaster is only an extra 10 minutes from my house compared to Preston, so I went for that. “When I got to the station a member of the Virgin staff checked my ticket and said it was fine. Then the same guy checked it again on the trip between Lancaster and Preston and said it was OK. “But then the same bloke again came round a third time near Warrington and accused me of getting on at Preston. He said he didn’t remember me from the previous two ticket inspections and said I had two choices - buy a new ticket at full price or give my name and address for them to send me a penalty notice. “I refused to do both and so, when we got to London, the police were waiting. It was so embarrassing being accused in front of a crowded carriage of fraud. Then being questioned by police at a busy station was equally embarrassing. “It was only when they agreed to look at the CCTV that they saw I really had got on at Lancaster. I got a verbal ‘sorry’ and they offered me a 50 per cent discount on my next trip. “What an appalling way to treat your customers. I can’t believe they were so heavy-handed and refused to listen.” A spokesman for Virgin Trains on the West Coast route said: “Virgin Trains has an excellent reputation for customer service and we want everyone to have the best experience possible. “We’re sorry to hear of Mr Morrissey’s experience which falls short of the high standards we set ourselves. “We have been in touch to offer him an apology and a goodwill gesture which he has accepted, and we will be looking into how we can learn from this incident.”

Read more at: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/i-ve-neve...rongly-detained-in-train-ticket-row-1-8368722

 

[najaB]

Sounds like we have an answer to the question raised in this thread as to if Virgin would take action against someone abusing this loophole.

 

[AlterEgo]

Wonder how they got the idea he had boarded at Preston. How do they know? Have they been issuing boarding passes or something?

 

[najaB]

There's a contradiction in the article, or at least it's badly written. It says he exploited a loophole, but if he boarded at Lancaster he didn't exploit anything.

 

[ainsworth74]

Wonder how they got the idea he had boarded at Preston. How do they know? Have they been issuing boarding passes or something?

Yes I was wondering that. Perhaps they're just going to blanket accuse people and hope that they fold under the pressure (guilty or not)!?

There's a contradiction in the article, or at least it's badly written. It says he exploited a loophole, but if he boarded at Lancaster he didn't exploit anything.

Yes indeed in order to 'exploit' it you'd have to actually board at Preston otherwise you're just paying the correct fare. Admittedly the differential is crazy but still.

 

[infobleep]

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2017-02-03/virgin-trains-acting-like-gestapo-over-ticket-row/

Sounds like he bought this ticket: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=LAN&dest=EUS&grpd=1072&tkt=SVR

I wasn't there so I don't know the attitude of passenger and staff in this but if this is an issue, perhaps they should have called up the CCTV whilst on the train. That would have saved time at Euston. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Hopefully next time this type of issue occurs they will do that.

I wonder how they got the image of the man at Euston to Lancaster to compare them. Would you be happy to have someone from a TOC or the BTP to take your photo and send it off to another station?

What if someone hadn't been so strong to stand their ground and had just paid up?

If this is such a big thing for Virgin then they need to find a way of identifying people with Lancaster tickets before they reach Preston rather than accusing them afterwards. I'm sure this is an isolated incident though.

I wonder if the staff were embarrassed at getting this wrong and falsely accusing someone. I think I might be. I certainly be mortified at doing so.

 

[Gareth Marston]

One of the commenters in the Blackpool Gazette has suggested taking Virgin to Court over the Lancaster/Preston Anytime price cliff says that cant legally justify it.

Same crack with Shrewsbury/Welshpool. Peak restrictions from Shrewsbury none from Welshpool to London. Theirs people armed with Welshpool to Euston Off Peaks getting on at Gobowen/Shrewsbury/Telford etc. However Virgin cant police it as they board at Birmingham having connected off ATW or London Midland.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Is it not permitted to start short on the ticket concerned and is BOJ allowed?

 

[cuccir]

No, it's not: No BoJ, and therefore no starting short (I don't think there are tickets that allow one and not the other?).

The discrepancy comes from the fact that Lancaster tickets have a much shorter morning peak than Preston and, even more significantly, have no afternoon peak. On trains leaving Euston between 15:00 and 18:49, the result is that the cheapest walk-up fare valid to Preston is the £175.50 Anytime Day Single or £351.00 Return; by contrast you can travel to Lancaster with a £93.20 return.

I can sympathize with the different demand that these stations have and therefore the incentive to price differently, but this incident clearly shows that Virgin are a bit mixed up over it, while it clearly does not fit with how the majority of passengers expect tickets to be priced.

 

[cuccir]

There's a contradiction in the article, or at least it's badly written. It says he exploited a loophole, but if he boarded at Lancaster he didn't exploit anything.

He's quoted as living in Bispham. I wonder if he's a regular traveller who's shifted to using Lancaster (10 mins longer drive) rather than Preston. It would also explain staff recognizing him as someone who travels from Preston suddenly holding a Lancaster ticket?

None of that is in the article of course so I could be talking nonsense but it would fit the reporting and help explain the incident a bit.

 

[tony_mac]

(unless I missed it)

The NRCoT say....

16.1 The conditions and any exclusions applying to these will be explained when you buy those Tickets.

They also say...

16.4 Generally, you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use.

So, we only have 16.1 for an exception, and I doubt that many ticket purchases actually satisfy 16.1 in any meaningful way...

If you buy from Virgin trains website, you have to click on the (not-obvious) link to read the ticket conditions, which say

'BREAK OF JOURNEY
Break of journey is permitted on the return direction of Off-Peak tickets, and is generally permitted on the outward direction unless prohibited for the journey that you are making. If you intend to break your outward journey, please contact us to check if it is permitted. You can always break your journey where necessary to change train.

(hardly 'explained' is it?)
I also think that 16.2-16.5 implies that 'break of journey' is not the same thing as starting at an intermediate station, and Virgin actually say nothing about restrictions to starting at an intermediate station.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, it's not: No BoJ, and therefore no starting short (I don't think there are tickets that allow one and not the other?).

It's funny how the meaning of that has changed. No BoJ used to mean "when you leave Railway premises the ticket dies". It's now slyly become much more than that.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Entirely possible then that a passenger could bord the earlier train at Lancaster, hop off at Preston to use station facilities and rejoin the London service inquestion.

 

[All Line Rover]

It's funny how the meaning of that has changed. No BoJ used to mean "when you leave Railway premises the ticket dies". It's now slyly become much more than that.

Quite. You can't "break" your journey if you haven't started it yet!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or travel from Lancaster to Preston with a different TOC first.

 

[All Line Rover]

Unacceptable customer "service" in any case. Doesn't surprise me, however.

If Preston / Wigan / Warrington are so profitable as to justify the fares charged from those stations, it's time to ditch the more flexible off-peak restrictions from stations further north (except Scotland).

 

[Joe Paxton]

Or travel from Lancaster to Preston with a different TOC first.

That's the only way this story seems to make any sense - he got on a previous train from Lancaster to Preston, perhaps with someone else who was just going to Preston, or otherwise stopped at Preston to pick something up from someone who was meeting him there.

The story says he "exploited a loophole", but if he got on at Lancaster (as proven by CCTV) then he didn't. A muddled story.

 

[najaB]

I also think that 16.2-16.5 implies that 'break of journey' is not the same thing as starting at an intermediate station, and Virgin actually say nothing about restrictions to starting at an intermediate station.

I don't agree, but that doesn't matter since 16.5 says "Generally, you may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return Ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the Ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use."

The ticket in question was valid to board the 0738 train from Lancaster to Euston, but it wasn't valid to board the 0758 from Preston to Euston.

Edit: Unless, as pointed out above, he had travelled from Lancaster to Preston on another train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Unacceptable customer "service" in any case. Doesn't surprise me, however.

If Preston / Wigan / Warrington are so profitable as to justify the fares charged from those stations, it's time to ditch the more flexible off-peak restrictions from stations further north (except Scotland).

I personally think a DB-style cap on Anytime fares makes sense. So if Preston is £350, so is Wick. Though I think it would also stand a reduction in fare to around £200.

 

[All Line Rover]

I accept that the totality of the rules make it clear that a simple case of boarding at Preston with the outward portion of a Lancaster to London SVR is invalid (subject to debate about the provision of information, etc), but that's a very loose and slippery definition najaB refers to.

 

[All Line Rover]

The story says he "exploited a loophole", but if he got on at Lancaster (as proven by CCTV) then he didn't. A muddled story.

He exploited a loophole if he made a genuine break of journey, no matter how short, in Preston. Which could be considered worse by some than simply starting short at Preston!

 

[najaB]

...but that's a very loose and slippery definition najaB refers to.

The issue is that the ticket has restriction code 3A which says that BOJ is only allowed to change trains. So you can't board at Preston with a Lancaster to Euston ticket unless you arrived at Preston by train.

 

[tony_mac]

The ticket in question was valid to board the 0738 train from Lancaster to Euston, but it wasn't valid to board the 0758 from Preston to Euston.

The ticket is clearly valid for use on that train, leaving Preston at 0758.

 

[najaB]

The ticket is clearly valid for use on that train, leaving Preston at 0758.

Here we go again... the 0728 train leaving Lancaster isn't the 0758 train leaving Preston as far as validity of staring your journey with a peak/off-peak ticket is concerned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

He exploited a loophole if he made a genuine break of journey, no matter how short, in Preston. Which could be considered worse by some than simply starting short at Preston!

I know the definition is no longer in the NRCoT, but the traditional definition requires you to leave Railway premises to constitute BoJ. Changing trains, even if unnecessary, is not BoJ.

 

[All Line Rover]

Here we go again... the 0728 train leaving Lancaster isn't the 0758 train leaving Preston as far as validity of staring your journey with a peak/off-peak ticket is concerned.

Let's not get into semantics. It is safe to say that there is a difference of opinion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I accept that the totality of the rules make it clear that a simple case of boarding at Preston with the outward portion of a Lancaster to London SVR is invalid

No, it is not.

What is invalid is doing so when you have not actually travelled from Lancaster first.

 

[All Line Rover]

I know the definition is no longer in the NRCoT, but the traditional definition requires you to leave Railway premises to constitute BoJ. Changing trains, even if unnecessary, is not BoJ.

That is why I mean by break of journey - e.g. leaving Preston station to pick up a parcel from the post office.

 

[All Line Rover]

No, it is not.

What is invalid is doing so when you have not actually travelled from Lancaster first.

Again, apologies for not being clearer (as clarity is of course essential in this context), but I meant "entering Preston station to start the journey to London by boarding a train there".

 

[Bletchleyite]

That is why I mean by break of journey - e.g. leaving Preston station to pick up a parcel from the post office.

If you are suggesting he did this (apologies for my other post in that case) this would indeed not be valid. His ticket would have effectively died the second he left the station building.