Virgin Trains ticket row

[LeylandLen]

Usually are informed over the public address that 'CCTV is in operation throughout the train ', so surely it could be proved as to where a passenger boared and whether his/her ticket was checked by TM ?

Also I see the cost of one room overnight at Lancaster Travelodge is ' from £42 ' so for me , with a railcard, is a possibility.Off peak return £61.50 plus room £42 means a good long day in London with no restriction on my choice of return train from Euston, ideally using the 1730 .Total £103.50.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Virgin could make things a lot simpler and easier to explain by extending the peak restrictions north to Lancaster. Be careful what you ask for.

And then you'd have the same cliff edge between Lancaster and Oxenholme. And if they extend it north again you'd have the cliff edge at Penrith, then Carlisle, then Lockerbie, then Motherwell and then you'll find that Glasgow tickets can't be used, sending business customers scuttling off to the Bearded One's mortal enemy British Airways.

The cliffedge is where it is because Virgin think they can rinse passengers from Preston, the busiest station on that part of the WCML.

 

[miami]

Usually are informed over the public address that 'CCTV is in operation throughout the train ', so surely it could be proved as to where a passenger boared and whether his/her ticket was checked by TM ?

If could perhaps show where the passenger boarded, it wouldn't show that the passenger did not start his journey at Lancaster, even if he boarded at Preston (or Wigan or Warrington) - the only CCTV that would be any use would be one showing the passenger arriving at Preston station.

If your ticket were dated the day before, and you started your journey on the 23:22 Lancaster-Preston the previous night, arriving 23:40, and unable to complete your journey, you could presumably continue your journey from Preston the next morning? Obviously this wouldn't apply if the date was "today".

P.S while looking at the routes - would Lancaster-Preston-Bolton-Wigan-Warrington-London be a valid route for Lancaster to London on map EX?

06:16 Lancaster[LAN] Bolton[BON] 07:07
07:26 Bolton[BON] Wigan Wallgate[WGW] 07:47
07:52 Wigan Wallgate[WGW] Wigan North Western[WGN] 07:53
08:09 Wigan North Western [WGN] London Euston[EUS] 08:09

Looks like it, with a via=bolton.

In that case CCTV showing an arrival at Wigan NW Wouldn't even prove that the person was travelling without a valid ticket (perhaps they had an early morning meeting on the train with someone going into Manchester, which had finished by 7AM)

 

[PhilipW]

Usually are informed over the public address that 'CCTV is in operation throughout the train ', so surely it could be proved as to where a passenger boarded and whether his/her ticket was checked by TM ?

I thought CTV was purely for 'safety' purposes as per the announcements not to detect when and where people get on and off for ticket revenue checks. It is a slippery slope if we are going that path.

 

[All Line Rover]

The cliffedge is where it is because Virgin think they can rinse passengers from Preston, the busiest station on that part of the WCML.

It's spot on but, to the average passenger, sounds awful.

The cut off should be at Carlisle.

1. Lockerbie has such an infrequent service that there is good justification for charging lower fares.

2. Haymarket and Motherwell are so far north of Carlisle that no passenger from Carlisle in their right mind is going to drive or take the train to either station in order to travel to London.

3. Exceptions for stations north of Carlisle can all be justified on the basis of being a concession for our "Scottish friends" (as is the case with our "Welsh friends").

4. The differential between an off-peak return from Motherwell or Haymarket and an anytime return from Carlisle is less stark than Lancaster vs Preston.

5. Passengers from Lancaster or Carlisle are unlikely to switch to air travel purely because peak fares are being charged. Passengers from Scotland are. However, I would hope that the 20.30 would be extended from Preston to Carlisle in order to provide more than one direct off-peak service in the evening for passengers to stations north of Preston.

 

[miami]

Are loadings on these trains high enough to need to price more passengers off them? Are loading a on the 1930 so low that putting more passengers on will be good?

I suspect "no" and "no"

A better solution would be to introduce an intermediate ticket with a higher price than the current off peak, but with the Lancaster restrictions, say £100 each way (rather than £50 ew for off peak and £200 ew for peak)

 

[Gareth Marston]

It's spot on but, to the average passenger, sounds awful.

The cut off should be at Carlisle.

1. Lockerbie has such an infrequent service that there is good justification for charging lower fares.

2. Haymarket and Motherwell are so far north of Carlisle that no passenger from Carlisle in their right mind is going to drive or take the train to either station in order to travel to London.

3. Exceptions for stations north of Carlisle can all be justified on the basis of being a concession for our "Scottish friends" (as is the case with our "Welsh friends").

4. The differential between an off-peak return from Motherwell or Haymarket and an anytime return from Carlisle is less stark than Lancaster vs Preston.

5. Passengers from Lancaster or Carlisle are unlikely to switch to air travel purely because peak fares are being charged. Passengers from Scotland are. However, I would hope that the 20.30 would be extended from Preston to Carlisle in order to provide more than one direct off-peak service in the evening for passengers to stations north of Preston.

the only part of Wales with a "concession" is the Cambrian and that's because the last connection leaves in the evening peak meaning it's unreasonable to apply peak restrictions and expect passengers to wait till the off peak and travel. It's nothing to do with preferential treatment. Of course Virgin could have peak hours inline with FGW's and then they could

 

[sheff1]

The cut off should be at Carlisle.

Which it where it was before Virgin started messing with the fares structure.

 

[miami]

the only part of Wales with a "concession" is the Cambrian and that's because the last connection leaves in the evening peak meaning it's unreasonable to apply peak restrictions and expect passengers to wait till the off peak and travel. It's nothing to do with preferential treatment. Of course Virgin could have peak hours inline with FGW's and then they could

The North Wales line from Shotton west has relaxed restrictions too, with connections through to holyhead as late as 20:40.

 

[Deerfold]

It's spot on but, to the average passenger, sounds awful.

The cut off should be at Carlisle.

1. Lockerbie has such an infrequent service that there is good justification for charging lower fares.

2. Haymarket and Motherwell are so far north of Carlisle that no passenger from Carlisle in their right mind is going to drive or take the train to either station in order to travel to London.

3. Exceptions for stations north of Carlisle can all be justified on the basis of being a concession for our "Scottish friends" (as is the case with our "Welsh friends").

4. The differential between an off-peak return from Motherwell or Haymarket and an anytime return from Carlisle is less stark than Lancaster vs Preston.

5. Passengers from Lancaster or Carlisle are unlikely to switch to air travel purely because peak fares are being charged. Passengers from Scotland are. However, I would hope that the 20.30 would be extended from Preston to Carlisle in order to provide more than one direct off-peak service in the evening for passengers to stations north of Preston.

I'm not sure many people on this thread are looking for the discrepancy in fares between Lancaster and Preston to be solved by dramatically increasing them for Lancaster and Carlisle.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The North Wales line from Shotton west has relaxed restrictions too, with connections through to holyhead as late as 20:40.

wrexham the largest town in North Wales has similar restrictions to Chester/ Crewe/Shrewsbury,the North Wales coast is a funny halfway house with morning restrictions into Euston and a bar on one specific train in the evening (1610 to Bangor).

 

[Fare-Cop]

You appear to be reading a lot into the reports that isn't actually there. The Passenger said he "ordered to buy another ticket or be fined and detained at Euston where British Transport Police were waiting." He also says he was questioned by the BTP, but he doesn't say he was detained or arrested. From experience, in situations like this BTP act as an intermediary and help to ensure that discussion of the issue is dealt with in a sensible manner. They may well have advised the passenger that it would be appropriate to hang around and resolve the issue but I wasn't there, and nor were you, so we won't ever know unless the passenger decides to join us and give his side of the story rather then the press version.

Absolutely right, I said much the same things yesterday and was told it was 'an easy come-back line' designed to put down other people's argument, but whilst that may be the case in some forum users minds, it does not make the fact that none of us were there to observe the incident any less true. We only have a journalist's take on the matter

Far too many assumptions by some get treated as 'fact' by others when they are not.

 

[snail]

I believe there is a crew change at Preston so I think it would be a different guard before Preston and another after.

Yes, that puzzled me. I sometimes catch the 0738 from Lancaster - because it's cheaper - and there is usually a crew change because they have been on since Glasgow.

 

[Millisle]

I'm not sure many people on this thread are looking for the discrepancy in fares between Lancaster and Preston to be solved by dramatically increasing them for Lancaster and Carlisle.

Very true. I always enjoy solutions to injustices based on spreading the misery around more widely.

 

[najaB]

Which it where it was before Virgin started messing with the fares structure.

But wait, that can't be right - that would mean that Penrith, Oxenholme and Lancaster got a better deal out of it. Which is entirely contrary to the "Beardy fleeces everyone for as much as possible." mantra.

 

[gray1404]

Yes, that puzzled me. I sometimes catch the 0738 from Lancaster - because it's cheaper - and there is usually a crew change because they have been on since Glasgow.

UNLESS it was some of their revenue staff who perhaps where on the train by Lancaster and stayed on after Preston. I encountered a ticket check upon leaving Stafford once on a VT Liverpool to Euston service. It was defiantly not the train manager who checked my ticket and she certainly was not one of the first class hosts.

As it was a quick exchange I can not be 100% sure but I think she might even have worked for the poxey contractor Transport Investigations. I have seen other posts on here in the past making reference to VT having revenue staff do on board ticket check in the morning peak.

 

[kieron]

About three months ago, and via the website.

Which web site was this?

When I went to the Virgin site earlier today and selected an identical ticket in each direction with less than a month between outward and return legs, and then clicked on the "More details" link on the "Travel options" page, it gave the ticket as an "OFF-PEAK RETURN". If there was any difference between the tickets (even if it's that only one is affected by a minimum fare), it gave two "OFF-PEAK SINGLE (ONLINE)"s instead. Depending on what I picked, this sometimes led to the price dropping from one screen to the next.

It switches to a return like that if I click through from NRE, as well, even if I select two single tickets.

 

[OhNoAPacer]

It's spot on but, to the average passenger, sounds awful.

The cut off should be at Carlisle.

1. Lockerbie has such an infrequent service that there is good justification for charging lower fares.

2. Haymarket and Motherwell are so far north of Carlisle that no passenger from Carlisle in their right mind is going to drive or take the train to either station in order to travel to London.

3. Exceptions for stations north of Carlisle can all be justified on the basis of being a concession for our "Scottish friends" (as is the case with our "Welsh friends").

4. The differential between an off-peak return from Motherwell or Haymarket and an anytime return from Carlisle is less stark than Lancaster vs Preston.

5. Passengers from Lancaster or Carlisle are unlikely to switch to air travel purely because peak fares are being charged. Passengers from Scotland are. However, I would hope that the 20.30 would be extended from Preston to Carlisle in order to provide more than one direct off-peak service in the evening for passengers to stations north of Preston.

Makes getting down the Cumbrian Coast Line tricky if we make Carlisle the cut off point, assuming the same peak /off peak, cut off as used for Preston then once the afternoon peak started it would not be possible for someone to get to Whitehaven, say, with an off peak ticket, well without having an overnight stay in Carlisle, and surely nobody is so heartless to force a night in Carlisle on anyone

 

[Llanigraham]

the only part of Wales with a "concession" is the Cambrian and that's because the last connection leaves in the evening peak meaning it's unreasonable to apply peak restrictions and expect passengers to wait till the off peak and travel. It's nothing to do with preferential treatment. Of course Virgin could have peak hours inline with FGW's and then they could

Concession also applies to all tickets for stations after Swansea.
I've been caught by that one a few times if I have travelled Ludlow - Newport - Paddington, leaving in the peak.
(Catch the Oxford - Worcester - Hereford instead as there is a concession for stations after Malvern)

 

[Pinza-C55]

In my heyday as a basher from 1979 - 82 I would be in Peterborough, Doncaster and Cleethorpes one day then Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Perth the next.
I virtually never travel by train now and I have to say that when I read some of these threads I am glad that I don't.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Concession also applies to all tickets for stations after Swansea.
I've been caught by that one a few times if I have travelled Ludlow - Newport - Paddington, leaving in the peak.
(Catch the Oxford - Worcester - Hereford instead as there is a concession for stations after Malvern)

FGW's definition of peak is more in line with managing peak flow not price gouging. There Anytimes aren't as expensive as VTWC and I'm unaware of any price cliffs like Lancaster/ Preston.

 

[Gareth Marston]

deleted

 

[Bletchleyite]

FGW's definition of peak is more in line with managing peak flow not price gouging. There Anytimes aren't as expensive as VTWC and I'm unaware of any price cliffs like Lancaster/ Preston.

And it's said that First are better at yield management than Virgin - part of their case for the WCML franchise involved improving that aspect.

 

[BlueFox]

Seeing as it is possible to get from every station served by VT to every other station served by VT without using VT it isn't a monopoly.

What's the best train to get from Wigan NW to Warrington BQ, without using Virgin?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What's the best train to get from Wigan NW to Warrington BQ, without using Virgin?

I think there's a connection at Newton or Earlestown, isn't there?

 

[Joe Paxton]

And it's said that First are better at yield management than Virgin - part of their case for the WCML franchise involved improving that aspect.

Who says this (apart from First)? And if it is the case, under what criteria might they be considered "better"?

Not wanting to defend VTWC, but it does seem to me that their rather ruthless fares strategy makes some business sense in terms of maximising returns (of the financial rather than fares flavour).

 

[Merseysider]

What's the best train to get from Wigan NW to Warrington BQ, without using Virgin?

FastJP.com will tell you that.

I think there's a connection at Newton or Earlestown, isn't there?

Once or twice a day, yep. Otherwise you go via Manc or Huyton.

 

[najaB]

What's the best train to get from Wigan NW to Warrington BQ, without using Virgin?

Oh, you're going to be specific and make it by train... Otherwise it would be the number 360 bus.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Just for information extra staff boarded at LAN when I took this train and marked my ticket with something I assume they'd recognise later. I didn't see if they got off at PRE. My trip was for what was almost certainly my last ever meeting in London, so solving this won't affect me!

Andrew

 

[All Line Rover]

If that is what VTWC is relying on to identify "valid" ticket holders, it is not acceptable because, as has been repeatedly mentioned in this thread already:

(i) a passenger could legitimately travel on a non-VTWC service from Lancaster to Preston, changing there, and

(ii) a passenger could be in the toilet between Lancaster and Preston and miss whatever ticket inspection takes place.