Virgin West Coast 1st class...anyone else find it uncomfortable?

[Howardh]

I suppose having a few first class carriages like this on Manchester-London is out of the question? https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...bservation_car_at_Illinois_Railway_Museum.jpg
Thought so

 

[Amy Worrall]

Well I would rather have a 158 or 159 over a Voyager anytime, thanks. Technically both Voyagers and Pendolinos are superb and the reliability figures speak for themselves, but they are bedevilled by a 'controversial' internal layout... They are the marmite of the railway world, people either love them or hate them.

In standard class, I find the voyagers better than the pendolinos (I hate the lack of armrest on the window seats of the pendos). The windows are far better too. (First class they're pretty similar to each other IMO.) I've never been particularly bothered by engine noise/vibration, as some people on here are.

I think the standard class seating in both of them is less good than some other trains though. The London Midland 350s (at least, the ones that have 2+2 seating rather than 2+3) are more comfortable and have more legroom.

The main downside of voyagers is that they've become associated with overcrowding for me. I'm used to the Cross Country Manchester to Southampton service, and the trains are never long enough for the number of passengers. Back before they fixed the loos the smell in the vestibules was also an issue (and the problems combined, because it was much more likely you'd have to stand in a vestibule), but that issue seems to have been solved now.

If the voyagers were all 7-10 car, and the standard class seating was slightly better, I think I'd quite like them

Amy

 

[RichmondCommu]

You don't think it might be because some people think that what is supposed to be a modern train fit for the travelling public of today might be held to higher standards? :roll:

It is and is vast improvement on what came before it.

 

[QueensCurve]

It *is* worse in the leading car, the reason for this is that the tilt degree required is worked out from the car in front to ensure no sideways jerks as the tilt compensates, but obviously the leading car has no car in front so has to go off its own sensors.

That is whaat I thought.

APT had the problem of the delay in the tilt mechanism causing nausia and the workround they found was to control tilt in each car from the one in front.

Obviously the same affects the pendolini.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Well I would rather have a 158 or 159 over a Voyager anytime, thanks. Technically both Voyagers and Pendolinos are superb and the reliability figures speak for themselves, but they are bedevilled by a 'controversial' internal layout... They are the marmite of the railway world, people either love them or hate them.

As far as Virgin are concerned the Pendolinos are excellent; they are reliabile and it is Alstom's credit that Virgin have such a high avaliability of Pendos worked so intensively day in, day out.

I never really liked the 158 - it has a tilting body shell and is therefore cramped.

The pendolini are, on balance good, but the ride quality is not brilliant.

The voyagers are dreadful. They have unprecedented levels of noise and vibration.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It is and is vast improvement on what came before it.

In terms of speed and acceleration, yes.

In terms of ride quality it is not.

 

[47271]

If we're on noise and vibration, I find that of a Grand Central 180 - a type of train not yet targeted in this thread - charging up the East Coast Main Line, First Class or otherwise, more annoying than that of a Voyager, and I'm not keen on Voyagers either as stated above.

Maybe I've always had some rough ones but I avoid the services operated by these trains if I can at all, their HSTs are a lot more pleasant.

 

[al.currie93]

I suggest First Class travel in a Scotrail 158 if you want to experience real disappointment in your accomodation. Or buy a First Class ticket and a Standard only Scotrail 170 turns up...

I think that Southern beat that - exactly the same as standard in every single way except you get a little hanky saying 'First Class' on the headrest. I made my family laugh once by writing 'First Class' on a napkin and putting it on my headrest :P

In my experience the Pendolini are uncomfortable full stop.

Quite apart from the cramped interior, the ride quality is poor. It seems to be worst in the leading car where feeling the suspension hit the end stops is quite common.

I agree, I don't find the ride quality any different than a Mk3 or Mk4 (or even a Mk2 having made my first journey on one on Tuesday) so I won't complain about that, but they do seem very claustrophobic and cramped to me - I rode on one back from Manchester yesterday (having travelled up via Chiltern and other operators to avoid Virgin) and managed to hit my head on the luggage rack - I'm only 5 foot 10 as well. The window seat the I was told I'd reserved also made me and the girl sitting next to me laugh:

 

[daikilo]

I thought that this was only a myth? The Pendolinos use an anticipatory system called Tiltronix, which can pinpoint the exact position of the train and anticipate a requirement to tilt:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2242191&postcount=21

http://www.alstom.com/Global/Transp...ts/Press Releases/Factsheets/TILTRONIX_EN.pdf

It was an initial problem on the APT-P sets, where the jerky tilt movement caused by having the sensors on the carriage they related to was resolved by moving the sensors to the preceding carriage, although this halved the redundancy of the system due to the lack of available connections between carriages. Surely Alstom were able to draw on 25 years of technological development to avoid such basic issues?

Really, does tiltronix have data that accurate? I would say that the reduced forward speed reduces tilt issues exponentially. That was probably the issue the APT-P naysayers refused to accept.

 

[Iskra]

If we're on noise and vibration, I find that of a Grand Central 180 - a type of train not yet targeted in this thread - charging up the East Coast Main Line, First Class or otherwise, more annoying than that of a Voyager, and I'm not keen on Voyagers either as stated above.

Maybe I've always had some rough ones but I avoid the services operated by these trains if I can at all, their HSTs are a lot more pleasant.

Agreed, they're now getting tatty and the fixtures shake more than a voyagers.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I agree, I don't find the ride quality any different than a Mk3 or Mk4 (or even a Mk2 having made my first journey on one on Tuesday) so I won't complain about that, but they do seem very claustrophobic and cramped to me - I rode on one back from Manchester yesterday (having travelled up via Chiltern and other operators to avoid Virgin) and managed to hit my head on the luggage rack - I'm only 5 foot 10 as well. The window seat the I was told I'd reserved also made me and the girl sitting next to me laugh:

Would you rather have had a seat with little or no view or no seat at all? I travel on Pendolino's three or four times a month and in my experience you are very unlucky to have been given that seat. Personally I would always take a seat over everything else.

 

[306024]

.....Can't remember what tables were like under the older IC trains, but I can't remember them being so big and having such wide legs. Never used 1st on any other TOC so can't compare.......

Come and have a ride in a Liverpool St - Norwich train and refresh your memory then Tables in first on a MkIII are quite large and fine for working.

As for a pendolino, perfectly comfortable in first, just a shame about the window size that makes them seem a bit claustrophobic.

 

[Bungle965]

Come and have a ride in a Liverpool St - Norwich train and refresh your memory then Tables in first on a MkIII are quite large and fine for working.

Or for that matter EMT HSTs the leather seats have so such padding in, they must be up for contention for the best seats around.
Sam

 

[Bletchleyite]

The voyagers are dreadful. They have unprecedented levels of noise and vibration.

The ride itself is however good, and the windows are huge.

What is *really* pleasant is a Voyager or 158 in which the engine has conked out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Really, does tiltronix have data that accurate? I would say that the reduced forward speed reduces tilt issues exponentially. That was probably the issue the APT-P naysayers refused to accept.

I would expect it to be a combination of both, personally. The anticipation improves it, but knowing what the coach in front is doing can help smooth it further.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If we're on noise and vibration, I find that of a Grand Central 180 - a type of train not yet targeted in this thread - charging up the East Coast Main Line, First Class or otherwise, more annoying than that of a Voyager, and I'm not keen on Voyagers either as stated above.

The 180 in my view should have been an excellent train being the true heir of the Class 156, but due to certain poor design elements (the seats not being bolted to the wall, a very poor ride, and poor quality interior fittings) was a huge disappointment. Then fGW came along and made them worse by installing dentist's chair daylight lighting.

All in all, a load of rubbish.

 

[Bungle965]

The 180 really should have been very good units but at that time any trains built by Alstom had reliability problems. And the 180s seemed to fair the worst.
Sam

 

[al.currie93]

Would you rather have had a seat with little or no view or no seat at all? I travel on Pendolino's three or four times a month and in my experience you are very unlucky to have been given that seat. Personally I would always take a seat over everything else.

I think that that question is somewhat irrelevant on this thread, as the topic of conversation is about our experiences of comfort on Pendolini when compared to other trains. Of course I would rather that than no seat at all, but if someone has reserved a window seat, expects a window seat and gets given this result, especially when this isn't anywhere near as much of a problem on Mk3s, Mk4s, Mk2s, 180s - and even 22X which also get window complaints - I think that in most cases their level of comfort will be affected when compared to other trains.

You could quite equally replace all the seats with little wooden benches and say the same question to people when they complained about comfort - it would not change the fact that those people felt that the train was uncomfortable compared to other trains as a result.

 

[hibtastic]

I don't like Voyagers either, but all you 158 fans out there, come to Scotland and enjoy riding in one of our unrefurbished sets for three hours or more. The 25 year old collapsed seat cushions and 15 year old manky carpet are unique inter city experiences unknown anywhere else on the UK network I think, unless anyone wants to start new threads for 'most uncomfortable long distance seat' or 'grubbiest carpet'.

I'm not a fan of the Scotrail 158s but I am pleased we have them instead of the Pacers, 150s and 153s that others have to put up with. They are miles better than those.

I really like Pendolinos though, particularly in 1st and I don't mind the Voyagers either when they aren't busy.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I think that that question is somewhat irrelevant on this thread, as the topic of conversation is about our experiences of comfort on Pendolini when compared to other trains. Of course I would rather that than no seat at all, but if someone has reserved a window seat, expects a window seat and gets given this result, especially when this isn't anywhere near as much of a problem on Mk3s, Mk4s, Mk2s, 180s - and even 22X which also get window complaints - I think that in most cases their level of comfort will be affected when compared to other trains.

You could quite equally replace all the seats with little wooden benches and say the same question to people when they complained about comfort - it would not change the fact that those people felt that the train was uncomfortable compared to other trains as a result.

So are you suggesting that having a view through a window helps to define how comfortable your journey is? I don't see why you think its irrelevant for me to ask whether you would rather have a seat or a decent view given that generally sitting down is more comfortable than standing up!

 

[al.currie93]

So are you suggesting that having a view through a window helps to define how comfortable your journey is? I don't see why you think its irrelevant for me to ask whether you would rather have a seat or a decent view given that generally sitting down is more comfortable than standing up!

I am suggesting that yes, and it's been implied by other people on this thread and outside of this forum that they feel this way, and I agree with them - I get quite motion sick if I can't see out of a window, especially on Pendolini with their tilt. It may not be an issue for you and that's not a problem, but for many people including myself having a window is comfort factor, for whatever reason.

You asked me "Would you rather have a seat with little or no view or no seat at all?" which seems like a rhetorical implication that I'm suggesting I would rather stand than sit in the seat I was allocated because it didn't meet my comfort expectations. I never suggested this in my post, and this implication does not relate to the comfort of Pendolini compared to other intercity trains - rather relating to what circumstances would cause us to refuse to sit in a seat. To answer your revised question above, I would rather sit in a seat with no window than have no seat but a nice view when on an intercity train.

Anyway, we obviously disagree about the comfort of these trains compared to others, so let's leave it at that.

 

[mbreckers]

MK3's firsts were the epitome of true comfort - especially on a later day BR Pullman service.

Little things like luggage racks having a window view - seats having wall views , massive bangs as the VCB kicks in , grating announcement chimes - walking 2.5 cars to find a toilet -

Oh - how we looked forward to the future.

Personally I prefer the wall view, less chance of staring out the window and ending up travel-sick

also I thought that the VCB bangs were normal with all EMU trains?

But yeah the announcements grate after a while, along with the crew code beeps that come through every speaker every five minutes

 

[superalbs]

I like the smell on those lovely diesel trains VTWC use, particularly in First Class.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I am suggesting that yes, and it's been implied by other people on this thread and outside of this forum that they feel this way, and I agree with them - I get quite motion sick if I can't see out of a window, especially on Pendolini with their tilt. It may not be an issue for you and that's not a problem, but for many people including myself having a window is comfort factor, for whatever reason.

Now in all fairness if you do indeed suffer from motion sickness if you can't see out of the window I would certainly not want to imagine you being covered in your own vomit for at least part of your journey. That would after be pretty awful for both yourself and anyone sat near you.

However, assuming that others don't suffer from motion sickness and simply want to gawp out of the window, that has nothing to do with comfort and everything to do with having nothing better to do to fill your time.

 

[physics34]

Remember the seats that virgin put in mk3 first class (maybe in mk2s too, can't remember)...so much better than the pendolino seats.

 

[bramling]

In standard class, I find the voyagers better than the pendolinos (I hate the lack of armrest on the window seats of the pendos). The windows are far better too. (First class they're pretty similar to each other IMO.) I've never been particularly bothered by engine noise/vibration, as some people on here are.

I think the standard class seating in both of them is less good than some other trains though. The London Midland 350s (at least, the ones that have 2+2 seating rather than 2+3) are more comfortable and have more legroom.

The main downside of voyagers is that they've become associated with overcrowding for me. I'm used to the Cross Country Manchester to Southampton service, and the trains are never long enough for the number of passengers. Back before they fixed the loos the smell in the vestibules was also an issue (and the problems combined, because it was much more likely you'd have to stand in a vestibule), but that issue seems to have been solved now.

If the voyagers were all 7-10 car, and the standard class seating was slightly better, I think I'd quite like them

Amy

I think this sums the situation up quite nicely. The Pendolino has one big advantage, namely their length - especially the 11-car trains.

The class 222 has designed out many of the contentious Voyager issues, although they too could benefit from being longer.

I certainly enjoy a window view, and many passengers also do. If something as basic as Networker or class 323 can provide pretty much every seat with a good view, it should have been possible to do better on the Pendolino.

 

[yorksrob]

However, assuming that others don't suffer from motion sickness and simply want to gawp out of the window, that has nothing to do with comfort and everything to do with having nothing better to do to fill your time.

Not true.

There are various rolling stock interiors that I find uncomfortable, even though they don't make me physically vomit.

On my commute, I've stared at the same view for almost every day for the past eight years, yet I would still find it discomforting not to have that view, even though I often have a newspaper to read some of the time.

Where I do get stuck with a very large pillar, I will usually go and find somewhere else.

 

[Aldaniti]

However, assuming that others don't suffer from motion sickness and simply want to gawp out of the window, that has nothing to do with comfort and everything to do with having nothing better to do to fill your time.

Some people will tell you that gazing out of a train window can be relaxing and gives you thinking time, its not easy to explain to those who can't appreciate it or don't have the depth of thinking to be able to understand this. What I do know is that as far as Virgin Trains is concerned, the free seats are more often than not the ones without a view.

 

[nuneatonmark]

Two points
1. Pendo 1st class is very comfortable IMO
2. Yes 350s were comfortable BUT most of the seats in the 350/1s are now so worn you're almost sitting on bare plastic.

 

[Goldfish62]

They're not uncomfortable, but the seats are nowhere near as comfortable as the first class seats on FGW or VTEC. I don't like the fact it's only the base that moves, rather than the whole seat tilting.

I find standard class comfortable though, except the issue with the windows never lining up with the seats.

Just shows how seat comfort is personal. For me the Pendolino 1st Class seats are more comfortable than FGW or VTEC, except for the armrests which are especially hard and designed so your elbow slips off when trying to lean on it. However, I don't like the Pendolino standard class seats one bit!

 

[RichmondCommu]

Not true.
There are various rolling stock interiors that I find uncomfortable, even though they don't make me physically vomit.

In all fairness I have not suggested that an interior isn't uncomfortable unless it makes you physically vomit, in fact I was simply replying to a post regarding motion sickness. Anyone who suffers from motion sickness has my utmost sympathy.

From my own personal observations (which are not scientific!) most customers are either reading books / newspapers, looking at their phones / tablets / laptops, talking to their travel companions or they are having a snooze. In other words not that many customers are too bothered about looking out of the window and I've certainly never come across anyone who would consider giving up their seat and standing because they had an obscured view.

Its also worth mentioning here that in my experience the vast majority of seats on a Pendolino offer at the very least a partial window view and unless the train is absolutely rammed its not too much of an issue to find another a seat that isn't reserved. And indeed if the train is rammed at least you have a seat!

 

[yorksrob]

In all fairness I have not suggested that any uncomfortable rolling stock interior will make people physically vomit, I was simply replying to a post regarding motion sickness. Anyone who suffers from motion sickness has my utmost sympathy.

From my own personal observations (which are not scientific!) most customers are either reading books / newspapers, looking at their phones / tablets / laptops, talking to their travel companions or they are having a snooze. In other words not that many customers are too bothered about looking out of the window.

Its also worth mentioning here

One doesn't necessarily need to be using a window for it to be uncomfortable not to have access to one.

I'm reminded that the first tube trains were built without windows at viewing height because nobody would need to look out of the window in a tunnel ! The "padded cells" were soon withdrawn for carriages with proper windows.

 

[RichmondCommu]

One doesn't necessarily need to be using a window for it to be uncomfortable not to have access to one.

I'm reminded that the first tube trains were built without windows at viewing height because nobody would need to look out of the window in a tunnel ! The "padded cells" were soon withdrawn for carriages with proper windows.

And in all fairness I'm not suggesting that windows should be removed from trains! However as I've already stated its very rare to be faced with the same situation that Al Currie came acoss as the vast majority of travelers always have a window view of some description.

 

[yorksrob]

And in all fairness I'm not suggesting that windows should be removed from trains! However as I've already stated its very rare to be faced with the same situation that Al Currie came acoss as the vast majority of travelers always have a window view of some description.

Depends on the train. There are some where the pillar takes up almost the entire space between the seat and the one in front. I might just about put up with it in steerage, but I'd be annoyed if I'd paid for first class.