Voyager hauling Pendolino / TMS set-up

[Bletchleyite]

Mod - split from this thread.

It’s the other way around on their caption though, ie a 9 car 800 hauling a 5 car 801?

I don't know if there are any pics, but a Voyager can haul a Pendolino and it has been done in testing. To allow for this (in emergency, not in service) is the reason Voyagers have an Alstom rather than Bombardier TMS.

 

[Grumpy]

I don't know if there are any pics, but a Voyager can haul a Pendolino and it has been done in testing. .

There is (or at least was) a video on youtube of this at Crewe

 

[_toommm_]

There is (or at least was) a video on youtube of this at Crewe

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cheers. Interesting that the pantograph was up, I guess just for hotel power.

 

[Chris125]

I don't know if there are any pics, but a Voyager can haul a Pendolino and it has been done in testing. To allow for this (in emergency, not in service) is the reason Voyagers have an Alstom rather than Bombardier TMS.

One wonders if it was worth the bother, how many times has it ever come in useful?

 

[SansHache]

I don't know if there are any pics, but a Voyager can haul a Pendolino and it has been done in testing. To allow for this (in emergency, not in service) is the reason Voyagers have an Alstom rather than Bombardier TMS.

Voyagers are fitted with Bombardier TMS not Alstom. The Traction equipment on Voyagers (and Meridians) was supplied by Alstom but this does not include the TMS.
If a Voyager hauls a Pendolino (or vice versa) there are no electrical connections between the two. There is mechanical and pneumatic coupling with the brakes on the trailing unit controlled via the brake pipe.
I don't think this type of rescue has ever actually been performed on service trains. Pendolinos can normally keep going in most failure modes as long as the OLE is still live. When there is an overhead line incident the emphasis now seems to be on performing a train-to-train evacuation to clear the passengers if there are any Voyagers in the area.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Voyagers are fitted with Bombardier TMS not Alstom

Are you certain? This is almost always quoted as the reason why Voyagers and Meridians won't talk.

 

[EE Andy b1]

Are you certain? This is almost always quoted as the reason why Voyagers and Meridians won't talk.

@SansHache is correct, Class 221 TMS is Bombardiers and not Alstom, and it's like working with Windows 3 as compared to a Class 390 which is more like Windows 98, that's my working opinion. So probably totally different software to a Class 222 and incompatible.

The reason the rescue arrangement would very rarely if ever be used would be down to the time and amount of equipment isolation that would be needed between the two units and if anything missed out, then the sets wouldn't be able to move anyway.

The Class 57 was the best option but far from perfect.

 

[anamyd]

@SansHache is correct, Class 221 TMS is Bombardiers and not Alstom, and it's like working with Windows 3 as compared to a Class 390 which is more like Windows 98, that's my working opinion. So probably totally different software to a Class 222 and incompatible.

The reason the rescue arrangement would very rarely if ever be used would be down to the time and amount of equipment isolation that would be needed between the two units and if anything missed out, then the sets wouldn't be able to move anyway.

The Class 57 was the best option but far from perfect.

The Voyager TMS runs on Windows CE. It's the Electrostar TMS that originally ran on "Windows 3.1" (actually Windows NT 3.51), though some classes have been "updated" to a Windows version more in line with what you claim Alstom use ("98" but I would've thought something more stable like NT4 or 2000)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Class 57 was the best option but far from perfect.

I never entirely understood why they didn't order a new build of diesel locomotives designed specifically to act in every way like they were another Pendolino when coupled up.

 

[Geezertronic]

The Voyager TMS runs on Windows CE. It's the Electrostar TMS that originally ran on "Windows 3.1" (actually Windows NT 3.51), though some classes have been "updated" to a Windows version more in line with what you claim Alstom use ("98" but I would've thought something more stable like NT4 or 2000)

ffs, cutting edge OS's

 

[37057]

The TMS display is just the tip of the iceberg regarding the actual TMS. The display itself might run on windows but the entire system won't.

 

[Kieran1990]

Crikey the voyager is proper thrashing away! Assume there has never been an actual rescue by a voyager to date?

 

[aleggatta]

The Voyager TMS runs on Windows CE. It's the Electrostar TMS that originally ran on "Windows 3.1" (actually Windows NT 3.51), though some classes have been "updated" to a Windows version more in line with what you claim Alstom use ("98" but I would've thought something more stable like NT4 or 2000)

Electrostars (and I imagine other trains) run on 'Windows Embedded'. essentially a very stripped down version of windows with all the security features up to the latest version of windows at the time of publishing/updating, but with graphics and other features of a more basic version of windows (the same sort of thing that runs cash machines and some point of sale software). Basic, but does what it needs to do reliably. The latest update on an Electrostar TMS will have happened in the last 18 months, so I would be quite surprised if other trains had not had software updates in the last couple of years.

 

[anamyd]

Electrostars (and I imagine other trains) run on 'Windows Embedded'. essentially a very stripped down version of windows with all the security features up to the latest version of windows at the time of publishing/updating, but with graphics and other features of a more basic version of windows (the same sort of thing that runs cash machines and some point of sale software). Basic, but does what it needs to do reliably. The latest update on an Electrostar TMS will have happened in the last 18 months, so I would be quite surprised if other trains had not had software updates in the last couple of years.

yes Embedded of course I heard that Bombardier moved to Linux for the TMS (or TMS display?) OS starting with the 379s

 

[anamyd]

The TMS display is just the tip of the iceberg regarding the actual TMS. The display itself might run on windows but the entire system won't.

fair point, good to be aware of that!

 

[whhistle]

The Voyager TMS runs on Windows CE.

Windows Compaect Edition
Tesco uses the same for the picking/packing devices in their warehouses.

 

[aleggatta]

yes Embedded of course I heard that Bombardier moved to Linux for the TMS (or TMS display?) OS starting with the 379s

That's one thing I can't confirm or deny, as I never unpacked the Mitrac interface software. I can tell you that its an exe that runs every time, and that it interfaces with the train on a serial connection, but never interrogated the software any more than that. The software on 377's is the same as that on 387's (and I would assume by extension 379's) so I can't see them leaving out the 375/6/8's

 

[rebmcr]

ffs, cutting edge OS's

You don't need cutting-edge features nor cutting-edge bugs on a train.

There's a reason that the Mars rovers only recently moved from the i386 to the Pentium 4 architecture.

 

[Roast Veg]

That's one thing I can't confirm or deny, as I never unpacked the Mitrac interface software. I can tell you that its an exe that runs every time, and that it interfaces with the train on a serial connection, but never interrogated the software any more than that. The software on 377's is the same as that on 387's (and I would assume by extension 379's) so I can't see them leaving out the 375/6/8's

I am led to believe by other posters that the Linux OS is fitted to all Electrostars post 2010, so the 379s, 377/6s, 377/7s, and 387s. This causes slightly different PIS behaviour on SN when older and newer units are run in multiple.

 

[driver_m]

Crikey the voyager is proper thrashing away! Assume there has never been an actual rescue by a voyager to date?

Yes. There’s was one in Scotland recently.

I don’t know why Bletchleyite keeps mentioning Alstom TMS as I’ve previously said that the two TMS systems are completely incompatible

 

[aleggatta]

I am led to believe by other posters that the Linux OS is fitted to all Electrostars post 2010, so the 379s, 377/6s, 377/7s, and 387s. This causes slightly different PIS behaviour on SN when older and newer units are run in multiple.

If that is the case, it would appear to be a virtual Linux machine running inside a windows embedded container. With regards to PIS behaviour, I'm unaware of any major differences with exception to the hardware upgrades on the later versions enabling two lines on the desti displays at each end of the unit, other than that, there is no real difference with new hardware now being fitted to older units as maintenance spares

 

[O L Leigh]

Are you certain? This is almost always quoted as the reason why Voyagers and Meridians won't talk.

It is not uncommon for units with different release versions of the same TMS to be segregated, even within the same class of train. This commonly happened with Cl379s for the first couple of years. The reason for doing so is because it is often not known what may happen when units with different TMS versions are coupled. There could be inconsistencies in operation that could cause all manner of interesting and unwanted side-effects, especially to systems such as doors.

I don’t imagine that there is a huge difference between the Voyager and Meridian TMS systems as they are essentially the same train. However, they do have divergent features, such as the SDO, which could make coupling them operationally undesirable. Over time the respective TMS systems could have diverged even more as updates and fixes were applied to each fleet.

My own personal feeling is that this whole belief that Voyagers must have an Alsthom-compatible TMS has come solely from this one video and the mistaken belief that what it shows is a Voyager and a Pendolino working in multiple. What it actually shows is a test of the “rescue and recovery” procedure which, as has been described above, does not require any electrical connection between units, only a mechanical and air connection. From a technical and operational standpoint, what you’re seeing here is a loco and LHCS, with the Voyager working as the loco and the Pendolino as the LHCS.

 

[a_c_skinner]

it would appear to be a virtual Linux machine running inside a windows embedded container

Hmm. Well I manage that at home most of the time.

 

[Highlandspring]

Yes. There’s was one in Scotland recently.

390127 dragged by a 5 car Voyager from Law Junction to Polmadie at 20mph on 9th February this year. Virgin Control told me it was the first time it had been done for real rather than for test purposes. From what I remember there were 47(?) isolating cocks to be operated on the Pendo before the air would start to build up and then it took around an hour for the Voyager to fully charge the main reservoir to allow the train to move safely.

 

[driver_m]

390127 dragged by a 5 car Voyager from Law Junction to Polmadie at 20mph on 9th February this year. Virgin Control told me it was the first time it had been done for real rather than for test purposes. From what I remember there were 47(?) isolating cocks to be operated on the Pendo before the air would start to build up and then it took around an hour for the Voyager to fully charge the main reservoir to allow the train to move safely.

For the benefit of those not at VT on here, Let’s just say that we had a refresher on it fairly recently in light of how much messing about has to actually happen. Needless to say, it is very much a last resort if a side by side rescue can’t be done, or a stagger to a suitable point can’t be done, and a 57 or same unit unavailable to rescue. My Depot doesn’t sign Scotland so I couldn’t say what the location is exactly like, but I believe there were OLE issues and the train was effectively boxed in and dead.

 

[Highlandspring]

Indeed it had been abandoned overnight after the wires came down and was completely electrically dead when it was rescued.

 

[krus_aragon]

The Voyager TMS runs on Windows CE. It's the Electrostar TMS that originally ran on "Windows 3.1" (actually Windows NT 3.51), though some classes have been "updated" to a Windows version more in line with what you claim Alstom use ("98" but I would've thought something more stable like NT4 or 2000)

The contemporary class 175 used Windows 2000 Embedded for their TMS.

(I saw a photo of a 175's bootscreen well over a decade ago, I forget where. Possibly nwrail.org.uk?)

 

[anamyd]

The contemporary class 175 used Windows 2000 Embedded for their TMS.

(I saw a photo of a 175's bootscreen well over a decade ago, I forget where. Possibly nwrail.org.uk?)

Aha! Thanks very much for that! I wonder if the earlier (1999) built 175s initially ran NT4.0 on their TMSs, seeing as 2K wasn't even released to manufacturing until 15/12/99.

 

[cheese]

In a situation like this, are the Pendolino's brakes effectively isolated?