Voyager on olympic test to WEYMOUTH

[Rich McLean]

I believe the HST's are leased on a mile by mile basis (as well as track charges). This is partly why they try and keep HST diagrams to a minimum.

Where voyagers are leased at a fixed price, it makes sense to run the voyagers first, then using HST's to boost capacity where required.

It's a cost saving excercise

 

[Ivo]

I don't see why some of you are suggesting that such an operation is a waste. It's not as though there are no sailing fans in this country; a Voyager service from further away from the South Coast will be valuable. I would expect a fair few from Oxford and Reading at least.

I also still don't get the negativity towards the spectacle of the Olympics on thr forum, but that's for another thread.

At least it's not Southen- Weston-super- er, insert name of favourite seaside resort of your choice

If I didn't know better (and I don't) I would assume this was aimed at me

 

[calc7]

I believe the HST's are leased on a mile by mile basis (as well as track charges). This is partly why they try and keep HST diagrams to a minimum.

Where voyagers are leased at a fixed price, it makes sense to run the voyagers first, then using HST's to boost capacity where required.

It's a cost saving excercise

Ok, so the cost of this additional service in fact equals the cost of the leased HST + track access charges + staff charges - extra revenue earned. Pretty sure that sum works out to a lot greater than the Voyager's usual "loss".

Again, seems like some Quango's had a say in this.

 

[Rich McLean]

Like I said, in this case, they will have to put another HST on the South West - North East/Scotland service, which will cost them more.

All I am saying is, its cheaper to leave some HST's stabled if they are not required by franchise commitments.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Why do you all think these extra olympics services are going to be empty, will you stop complaining if they are leaving people at stations due to demand?

 

[calc7]

Like I said, in this case, they will have to put another HST on the South West - North East/Scotland service, which will cost them more.

All I am saying is, its cheaper to leave some HST's stabled if they are not required by franchise commitments.

I'm in total agreement with your second comment!
My conclusion is that it hardly makes commercial sense (a couple of workings each day, against the peak flow) so whoever decided this must be doing it as a favour to somebody.

 

[Eagle]

I'm in total agreement with your second comment!
My conclusion is that it hardly makes commercial sense (a couple of workings each day, against the peak flow) so whoever decided this must be doing it as a favour to somebody.

How is it against the peak flow? People want to go to Weymouth for the day.

 

[YorkshireBear]

How can it not make sense to have extra trains to support a large sports event? I cant even see where you are coming from, i can understand being annoyed because railways are going to great lengths to satisfy olympics. But i can not understand why you dont think these services are needed?

 

[Eagle]

How can it not make sense to have extra trains to support a large sports event?

That, basically. It's a long-established tradition to lay on some extra trains for big sporting events.

Whether the amount of capacity XC are laying on is appropriate, however, is more debatable.

 

[calc7]

How is it against the peak flow? People want to go to Weymouth for the day.

I mean from an ORCATS, point-of-view, the lucrative morning peak flows are away from Weymouth, ie. towards London.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

That, basically. It's a long-established tradition to lay on some extra trains for big sporting events.

Whether the amount of capacity XC are laying on is appropriate, however, is more debatable.

I thought that XC would lay on more trains if there was the capacity for it. Don't forget north of Dorchester the HoW and SWML both become single track eventually (Maiden Newton and Dorchester South respectively) so there is no more room for extra trains, if desperate times call then I don't see why trains shouldn't be coupling up but that's a quickfire decision XC, SWT, and FGW will have to make on the days of the events.

 

[Eagle]

I mean from an ORCATS, point-of-view, the lucrative morning peak flows are away from Weymouth, ie. towards London.

Or more accurately towards Bournemouth and Southampton (Weymouth to London would be a hell of a commute, although it wouldn't surprise me if a few people do it).

 

[Greenback]

I think that given the fact that diesel stock is so scarce, and XC trains are generally so over crowded, it is only natural to question whether additional trains to Weymouth are an appropriate use of resources.

 

[Schnellzug]

The question I suppose is if the demand is there. The proof of that, whatever Lord Coe may try to tell us, will only be found out when the pudding is ready for eating, won't it. If there is, then obviously it makes sense to cater for them. Besides, if you ask me, there ought to be regular XC services to Weymouth like there were on summer Saturdays before Virgin cocked it up or the Government started interfering in everything, depending on who you believe. Anyway, arguing about whether it's commercial sense is neither here nor there, I suppose, since I suppose they're contracted to LOCOG, for whom, as we know, there's an unlimited supply of money to subsidise everything. Anyway, if we have got to be forced to enjoy the whole tedious extravaganza, then at least there might be a few moderately interesting spin-offs from it. Now if FGW were to use HSTs on the Bristol line, that would almost make it worthwhle ...

 

[pitdiver]

* well, I must say 221137 flew up Upwey bank. Must be the quickest i've ever known anything go up. Rather fun; about a dozen staff and 3 passengers. All the staff were taking photos and everything, it looked like quite a day out.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



At least it's not Southen- Weston-super- er, insert name of favourite seaside resort of your choice

Weymouth's not that bad admittedly it did go through period of DSS lodgings, but I think it has improved since then.

 

[jopsuk]

How can it not make sense to have extra trains to support a large sports event? I cant even see where you are coming from, i can understand being annoyed because railways are going to great lengths to satisfy olympics. But i can not understand why you dont think these services are needed?

Because they see what they think is a minority sport and think it will have little appeal. Forgetting that it's one of the bigger participation sports in the country, with clubs on nearly every puddle and stretch of river too deep to wade in (and some shallower ones), with participants across society but tending towards the more affluent end (thus the absolute fleecing they've got away with for the Nothe Gardens ticketing). They've seen something that they don't like/understand/aren't interested in, and decided that hardly anyone is interested in it- plus there's fair amount of anti-Olympic sentiment.

The TOCs involved would not be doing this, the ODA would not be asking them to do this, if they didn't believe there was going to be serious extra traffic to Weymouth for those two weeks. They're not doing this for giggles.

As for those who don't like this is being done because they don't like the Olympics- well, rather, tough. It's happening. We're now rather at a stage where you've rather got to live with this fact.

As an additional note: the corporate branding cavalcade with a jogger waving a flaming around in the middle of it now making its way around the country was started on this occasion by a sailor- one who's taken a silver and three golds at previous games (sailors can only win one per games) the day after he won his class' World Championships. Again.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I think that given the fact that diesel stock is so scarce, and XC trains are generally so over crowded, it is only natural to question whether additional trains to Weymouth are an appropriate use of resources.

I agree, however in this case it is possible to increase fleet avaliability as a temporary solution so that the rest of XC network is not neglected while providing extra capacity. But they cannot usually do this as it an extreme short term solution.

 

[richw]

I think you might be surprised how many people travel to see the sailing! I will concede that to the uninitiated it looks as exciting as paint drying but there you are.

Having been in falmouth this week, there was a final qualifying event, and the crowds for that were large crowds, can only imagine the crowds size for olympics!

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk 2

 

[Eagle]

Here's a radical idea: let's look at some numbers.

XC are providing two extra Voyagers each day. That's a daily capacity increase of about 400, bearing in mind SWT are offering no extra capacity. FGW's service from Cardiff adds another 120 or so, assuming it's a two-car service.

How many tickets were available for each day of the sailing?

 

[swt_passenger]

There is apparently extra SWT capacity now. After about three years of saying there couldn't be any, (and I've often repeated it) they have now said there is, and have mentioned on their website that NR have approved temporary increases in the power available, so that implies EMUs.

However SWT ran two extra 158s ECS to test the timetable this morning, half an hour after each of the XCs.

One of the XC units is also doing a Weymouth > Bournemouth > Weymouth run mid day, which will add capacity too.

 

[Eagle]

I found it.

The number of tickets available per day for the sailing is 4,600. And they've all sold out. And of course not everyone will be a ticket holder, some will just be going to watch it on the big screens, or from across the bay (perhaps with binoculars).

Does sending a couple of Voyagers that way seem sensible now?

 

[wintonian]

I found it.

The number of tickets available per day for the sailing is 4,600. And they've all sold out. And of course not everyone will be a ticket holder, some will just be going to watch it on the big screens, or from across the bay (perhaps with binoculars).

Does sending a couple of Voyagers that way seem sensible now?

Plus those watching the screen on the beach and I expect some will go up to the cliffs as well.

Weymouth beach and services there are normally very busy when its a nice warm and sunny Saturday, in which case the extra capacity may well be welcome. On the other hand if it pours down then it may be wasted.

 

[TEW]

FGW's service from Cardiff adds another 120 or so, assuming it's a two-car service.

The FGW additional service will probably be more than two carriages and the normal services will be strengthened by additional units too. Seems likely that an HST might be put to use of Cardiff-Taunton services to free up additional units.

 

[jopsuk]

I found it.

The number of tickets available per day for the sailing is 4,600. And they've all sold out. And of course not everyone will be a ticket holder, some will just be going to watch it on the big screens, or from across the bay (perhaps with binoculars).

Does sending a couple of Voyagers that way seem sensible now?

Quite- I believe there's supposed to be free big screens being set up on/by the beach? The Nothe Gardens ticketed area will only be any good for one of the race areas (that won't be visible for the beach)- two or three of the race areas are in Weymouth bay, off the beach (but 1-5 miles out)

 

[Schnellzug]

As an additional note: the corporate branding cavalcade with a jogger waving a flaming around in the middle of it now making its way around the country was started on this occasion by a sailor- one who's taken a silver and three golds at previous games (sailors can only win one per games) the day after he won his class' World Championships. Again.

And why exactly should everyone adore him for that? He's good at sailing Dinghies. So... well, good for him. Why, though, should this make him a Hero, and people should have to respect him? It takes a lot of skill to, for example, drive a steam locomotive. Why should "Athletes" who just happen to be good at sailing Dinghies be adored as Heroes?

I found it.

The number of tickets available per day for the sailing is 4,600. And they've all sold out. And of course not everyone will be a ticket holder, some will just be going to watch it on the big screens, or from across the bay (perhaps with binoculars).

Does sending a couple of Voyagers that way seem sensible now?

yes, 4,600 seems fairly rational, but the Council and Lord Coe are predicting (i.e. grasping a wild figure out of the air) of 60,000 Spectators every single day. Does anyone believe a single word of this? How on earth do they estimate that? And what will all these alleged 60,000 Spectators actually do? Well, according to some over-enthusiastic twit from the Council they will be "having the Time of their Lives". Well, ok. Again, it doesn't seem to have been explained exactly what this will entail, apart from watching Giant Screens and being force-fed Official LOCOG-approved Entertainment. Most people do that every single day, don't they.

 

[starrymarkb]

Ok, so the cost of this additional service in fact equals the cost of the leased HST + track access charges + staff charges - extra revenue earned. Pretty sure that sum works out to a lot greater than the Voyager's usual "loss".

Again, seems like some Quango's had a say in this.

Don't we get people on here complaining that the railways don't cater to big sporting events? And they they are complaining when they do. Given the numbers that are turning up for the Torch Relay and that the sailing can be observed without a ticket (so the organisers don't know how many people are going to attempt to turn up!) is it not better that some extra capacity is provided?

 

[Clip]

Don't we get people on here complaining that the railways don't cater to big sporting events? And they they are complaining when they do. Given the numbers that are turning up for the Torch Relay and that the sailing can be observed without a ticket (so the organisers don't know how many people are going to attempt to turn up!) is it not better that some extra capacity is provided?

It appears you are banging your head against a brick wall here with calc7. If they cannot see that a big sporting event needs more capacity to transport people then no amount of poiting this out to them will make them see otherwise.

Very frustrating.

 

[DDB]

And why exactly should everyone adore him for that? He's good at sailing Dinghies. So... well, good for him. Why, though, should this make him a Hero, and people should have to respect him? It takes a lot of skill to, for example, drive a steam locomotive. Why should "Athletes" who just happen to be good at sailing Dinghies be adored as Heroes?

Really? Really? Your really suggesting that someone who has for over a decade been the best on the planet at a sport is not worthy of some respect? Really? You don't regard this as just a little bit more impressive than driving a steam train which although no doubt has a knack is hardly having to drive on the very edge of what is possible formula one style?

yes, 4,600 seems fairly rational, but the Council and Lord Coe are predicting (i.e. grasping a wild figure out of the air) of 60,000 Spectators every single day. Does anyone believe a single word of this? How on earth do they estimate that? And what will all these alleged 60,000 Spectators actually do? Well, according to some over-enthusiastic twit from the Council they will be "having the Time of their Lives". Well, ok. Again, it doesn't seem to have been explained exactly what this will entail, apart from watching Giant Screens and being force-fed Official LOCOG-approved Entertainment. Most people do that every single day, don't they.

The problem with Weymouth is they don't know how many people will be coming on every given day. They know how many people are coming to the Olympic venues in London because they know how many tickets they have sold and people won't turn up without a tickets as they won't get in. People will turn up in Weymouth depending what the weather is like that day so they have to plan for the peak crowd.
According to Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weymouth,_Dorset#Economy It gets 70,000 for the carnival and got 300,000 over four days for the tall ships.
Yet you don't think that the

• only Olympic venue you will be able to get near to without a ticket
• at a location that gets a massive summer daytrip traffic anyway
• that is convenient for two of the countries that dominate sailing (UK and France)

will get 60,000 spectators on a sunny day in the holidays?

When those whose job it is predict these thing armed with actual knowledge do?
I think I'm going to go with the organisers estimate. Except to say they have so far underestimated demand so far as the Olympic tickets sold out easily.

 

[calc7]

It appears you are banging your head against a brick wall here with calc7. If they cannot see that a big sporting event needs more capacity to transport people then no amount of poiting this out to them will make them see otherwise.

Very frustrating.

I for one am happy to see extra trains laid on for big sporting events if (and only if):

• It makes commercial sense
• There is adequate rolling stock

For the former, this cannot be profitable for the reasons I've highlighted (cost of HST lease + cost of track access + cost of path - minimal extra revenue earned from the service). In the case of the chartered FA Cup Final special, this was a lot better as tickets were flat-priced and so revenue was guaranteed at a predetermined level. I am forced to conclude in this instance that either: XC is happy to make a loss on this (unlikely) or the taxpayer will fork out (likely).

In answer to the latter bulletpoint, if there were adequate rolling stock for this service, why is it not being used on the core XC network every day?!


I'm sorry, I never lived in the BR era and I work in the private sector, so I approach everything from an economic perspective. For the record, I am attending an Olympics sporting event some 400 miles from where I live. I will be travelling there and back in a day on the usual services.

 

[DDB]

In answer to the latter bulletpoint, if there were adequate rolling stock for this service, why is it not being used on the core XC network every day?!

Because this is not an everyday event! It is happening for a couple of weeks and has been known about 6 years in advance!
It is easy to make a couple of extra units available with pre-planning by ensuring none are out for scheduled maintenance during that period by doing it early. Also I suspect that driver and crew training, route learning, upgrades, deep cleaning and anything else that requires units out of service will be suspended for those two weeks as well.