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VT Advance and late trains

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voyagerdude220

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I personally don't think the OP has any right to be annoyed with VT. I use Advance tickets myself and fully understand that my ticket is only valid for the booked train, unless ticket restrictions had been lifted.

When you buy an advance ticket, you pay less because you're receiving a greatly reduced choice of trains with your ticket.

The only time I feel you should get permission to travel on a different train, if when you may be unable to complete your journey to your destination station that day, owing to you missing a connection on your delayed booked train.
 
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MikeWh

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I personally don't think the OP has any right to be annoyed with VT. I use Advance tickets myself and fully understand that my ticket is only valid for the booked train, unless ticket restrictions had been lifted.

When you buy an advance ticket, you pay less because you're receiving a greatly reduced choice of trains with your ticket.

The only time I feel you should get permission to travel on a different train, if when you may be unable to complete your journey to your destination station that day, owing to you missing a connection on your delayed booked train.

Whilst I do agree with this in principal, I do feel TOCs are shooting themselves in the foot somewhat if by sticking to the rules it means that the customer has a free ride. If I was a shareholder I'd want the TOC to avoid paying any compensation if possible. It's a sad state of affairs when the determination to ensure terms are rigidly applied means that the company loses money.
 

hairyhandedfool

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That assumes that everyone who is delayed sufficiently claims compensation. Would you also deem that necessary where the delay would not trigger a successful claim?

Perhaps more to the point, would the cost of paying out compensation be off-set by the additional fares paid by those who don't want to be late or limited to that train?
 

dvboy

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Or she has missed the 1310 and is trying it on!

Unless the TM could see that the 1310 was late how would he know the difference?

A quick look at his mobile, or the departure screens on the platforms at BHM would have shown that the 1310 was running approximately an hour late at 1330 yesterday.

To not check what the passenger is saying in this way is just plain unreasonable, and it would be pure common sense, because it's good customer service AND compensation avoidance, to allow travel on the 1330.

It appears the TM of the 1330 was not aware that the 1310 from BHM starts its journey much further north (which he would also seen, had he checked).

I would have thought that at Wolverhampton, anyone waiting for the 1245 as it is from there, would have been advised by announcement to travel on the 1241 XC to BHM and change, given the next direct service an hour later was also running late.
 
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sheff1

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But it works in many cases. I would hazard a guess that it works in the majority of cases.

Yes I know. Clearly works with some members of this board. :)


Or she has missed the 1310 and is trying it on!

She has missed a train that had not arrived at the time of posting and was indicated as being an hour late ? The mind boggles :o
 
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455driver

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Whilst I do agree with this in principal, I do feel TOCs are shooting themselves in the foot somewhat if by sticking to the rules it means that the customer has a free ride. If I was a shareholder I'd want the TOC to avoid paying any compensation if possible. It's a sad state of affairs when the determination to ensure terms are rigidly applied means that the company loses money.

Whats to stop the passenger travelling on the on time (but timetabled later) train and then putting a delay repay request in as if they had waited for their very late booked train?

Do you actually think that everyone would just say thankyou and not put in for a refund?
 

34D

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Whats to stop the passenger travelling on the on time (but timetabled later) train and then putting a delay repay request in as if they had waited for their very late booked train?

Do you actually think that everyone would just say thankyou and not put in for a refund?

Hopefully the ziffa would?
 

anme

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I personally don't think the OP has any right to be annoyed with VT. I use Advance tickets myself and fully understand that my ticket is only valid for the booked train, unless ticket restrictions had been lifted.

When you buy an advance ticket, you pay less because you're receiving a greatly reduced choice of trains with your ticket.

The only time I feel you should get permission to travel on a different train, if when you may be unable to complete your journey to your destination station that day, owing to you missing a connection on your delayed booked train.

What possible reason is there for Virgin to deny travel on the 13:30 in this case? Assuming the OP's statements are correct (I'm not calling them into question, just stating for completeness), there was plenty of room on the 13:30, and the passenger is not gaining any advantage compared to travelling on the service they were expecting. In fact, they will still be delayed, by 20 minutes +/- any difference in the speeds of the trains. Regardless of what the rules say, this seems 'jobsworth' behaviour of the worst kind by VT. It will cost them good will *and* money via delay/repay - a lose/lose situation for all concerned.

Remember that the railways are there for the passenger, not the other way around.
 
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455driver

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She has missed a train that had not arrived at the time of posting and was indicated as being an hour late ? The mind boggles :o

YEs in this case that is correct but how often are trains over an hour late? The mind does boggle that you missed the point I was trying to make completely, cant say I am surprised though! :roll:
 

voyagerdude220

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What possible reason is there for Virgin to deny travel on the 13:30 in this case? Assuming the OP's statements are correct (I'm not calling them into question, just stating for completeness), there was plenty of room on the 13:30, and the passenger is not gaining any advantage compared to travelling on the service they were expecting. In fact, they will still be delayed, by 20 minutes +/- any difference in the speeds of the trains. Regardless of what the rules say, this seems 'jobsworth' behaviour of the worst kind by VT. It will cost them good will *and* money via delay/repay - a lose/lose situation for all concerned.

Remember that the railways are there for the passenger, not the other way around.





The fact that advance tickets are reduced in price, in order to reflect the inflexible nature of the tickets.
If you want flexibility you can pay more for an off peak or anytime ticket. No it's not nice to wait longer than needed for your own train, but that's what you have to do if you hold an advance ticket.
 

hairyhandedfool

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A quick look at his mobile, or the departure screens on the platforms at BHM would have shown that the 1310 was running approximately an hour late at 1330 yesterday....

Have you been to Birmingham New Street recently?

I'm pretty sure that whilst it might seem like a really easy thing to do, it might surprise some to know that (a) the departure boards at platform level that show all departures from the station are few and far between at Birmingham New Street and (b) when at a station the Guard/Train Manager has actually got responsibilities to attend to. I imagine Virgin trains have a policy on use of mobiles, though I couldn't tell you what it is, even if the guard had the time to check it (maybe they did, maybe they didn't, I wasn't there).

....To not check what the passenger is saying in this way is just plain unreasonable, and it would be pure common sense, because it's good customer service AND compensation avoidance, to allow travel on the 1330....

It's not unreasonable at all, even if you ignore any time constraints the Guard/Train Manager might be under. I doubt very much that the question of compensation even enters the guards mind, they might even think the compensation is actually good for the passenger (a free ride maybe!), but I doubt that would ever be considered 'good' by the passenger (or their followers) because it never fits the argument.

....It appears the TM of the 1330 was not aware that the 1310 from BHM starts its journey much further north....

Largely irrelevant I think.

....I would have thought that at Wolverhampton, anyone waiting for the 1245 as it is from there, would have been advised by announcement to travel on the 1241 XC to BHM and change, given the next direct service an hour later was also running late.

Maybe, but we will never know. It might be worth pointing out though, that on my recent trips through Oxford, where trains have been delayed and passengers 'advised' of other connections, Advance ticket holders have been advised to wait for their booked train.

....Regardless of what the rules say, this seems 'jobsworth' behaviour of the worst kind by VT....

Jobsworth is a great term because it categorically states that the staff member is doing their job correctly. I believe that then quickly becomes 'end of argument' because all you can add is 'I think that is wrong!' or you have to backtrack and lose credibility.

....It will cost them good will *and* money via delay/repay - a lose/lose situation for all concerned....

Not necessarily. How many changed their tickets to use the 1330? How many will avoid Advance fares next time so they are not caught out? How many will actually apply for compensation? How many who boarding teh 1330 without asking and held Advance tickets for the 1310 were actually sold new tickets or had the existing ones changed?

....Remember that the railways are there for the passenger, not the other way around.

Actually I think it is the other way round. Whilst it is true that the passenger railway needs passengers, there are plenty of people that need the railway.
 

yorkie

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The fact that advance tickets are reduced in price, in order to reflect the inflexible nature of the tickets.
If you want flexibility you can pay more for an off peak or anytime ticket. No it's not nice to wait longer than needed for your own train, but that's what you have to do if you hold an advance ticket.
Someone who books on the 1310 and ends up on a train at 1330, rather than 1410, is hardly guilty of wanting "flexibility".

Actually I think it is the other way round. Whilst it is true that the passenger railway needs passengers, there are plenty of people that need the railway.
I agree that the rail industry - almost uniquely - all too often appears to work to that principle, whether it's right or wrong (which, as you say, will vary depending on the person).

However the PR departments of Train Companies and ATOC certainly don't admit that this view is held.
 

87 027

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To those who say the passenger must wait for their booked train regardless of the delay, does this view still hold if it means missing a connection and the connecting service is the last departure of the day?
 

anme

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OK - so to summarise the views of some people here - and please correct me if I have misunderstood anything...

The passenger, having already been inconvenienced by their booked train being late, must wait for that train, even if:
- There is space on the next train, which is leaving earlier than their booked train (but still later than their booked train was scheduled to depart, so don't worry! The passenger will still be delayed and inconvenienced!).
- The passenger's booked train is full and standing.
- The passenger will be so delayed by waiting for their booked train that they are able to claim compensation.
- The passenger may miss onward connections (thanks 87 027 :) ).
- But at least the purity of the advance ticket rules are maintained!

This is clearly insane - both for the train company and for the passenger. Letting the passenger travel on the next train (the 13:30 in this case) would be a win for the passenger, who has their delay minimised, and for the train company, who are not liable for compensation and retain some good will. Making the passenger wait for the next train means that everybody loses. This is a clear case when common sense and discretion should be used.

BTW, I'm not necessarily criticising the guard of the 13:30 train. He/she may have been doing his job and following their employer's rules (which we haven't established), and I don't blame her/him for that. In fact, such rules, if they exist, put the guard in a difficult situation and for that they have my sympathy.
Also, to be clear, changing some of the parameters would change the situation - say if the 13:30 was full and standing and the 13:10 was expected at 13:35, then I would expect the passenger to wait for the 13:35. This is why common sense and discretion are important.
 
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sheff1

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YEs in this case that is correct but how often are trains over an hour late? The mind does boggle that you missed the point I was trying to make completely, cant say I am surprised though! :roll:

If someone is seeking to board a train which will leave before the delayed one on which they are booked, I cannot see how they can have possibly missed the earlier one and are thus 'trying it on' by seeking to board the train which is scheduled to follow but will actually leave earlier than the 'booked train'. How often this scenario arises is neither here nor there.

Perhaps you would like to make your point clearly for those of us who cannot easily grasp the concept of someone standing on a platform having missed a train which has not yet arrived.
 

JonathanH

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To those who say the passenger must wait for their booked train regardless of the delay, does this view still hold if it means missing a connection and the connecting service is the last departure of the day?

In those circumstances, isn't the correct process then is to go to the customer service desk and ask them for advice? They can then authorise earlier travel (or tell you to wait and sort it out at the connecting station).

The choice passengers take when booking their advance tickets from Birmingham and London is between a train which comes from 300-odd miles to the north and one which has come from London. One would expect that advance fares on the ones from the north should be more expensive but on some occasions they will not be disrupted when the ones coming from London are. Maybe this should be made clear at booking.
 

David Goddard

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It appears the TM of the 1330 was not aware that the 1310 from BHM starts its journey much further north (which he would also seen, had he checked).

Its not rocket science for a TM of a twenty minute interval service to know that the xx10 comes through from Scotland while the xx30 and xx50 start from Birmingham New Street.

I would have expected them to know this, and what's more, if the 1310 was delayed, for them to know about that so to expect a heavier load on the 1330.
 

455driver

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If someone is seeking to board a train which will leave before the delayed one on which they are booked, I cannot see how they can have possibly missed the earlier one and are thus 'trying it on' by seeking to board the train which is scheduled to follow but will actually leave earlier than the 'booked train'. How often this scenario arises is neither here nor there.

But how would the TM on the train she is trying to board know that the booked train is actually behind his train instead of in front of it?

That is the point I am trying to make! :roll:
 

westv

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But how would the TM on the train she is trying to board know that the booked train is actually behind his train instead of in front of it?

That is the point I am trying to make! :roll:

If it's the same TOC how could they not know? They would be able to tell if the booked train was cancelled so why wouldn't they have running info?
 

455driver

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You think TOCs send out info about all delayed and cancelled services do you!

I give up, you lot think what you like, I will stick to knowing what I know!:roll:
 

westv

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You think TOCs send out info about all delayed and cancelled services do you!

I give up, you lot think what you like, I will stick to knowing what I know!:roll:

If they don't how on earth would a TM know a passenger with an AP was correct in using an alternative service after a their booked train was cancelled?
 

sheff1

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Well of course. I get it now.

* The TM has no knowledge of the delay, despite it being broadcast to everyone else on the station.
* If a passenger tells the TM that the previous train is late they are clearly lying as no passenger ever tells the truth.
* As the passenger is clearly lying there is no need for the TM to make any effort to find out about the previous train - the display screens and PA announcements about the delay have clearly been faked by lying passengers.

Straightforward really. How could anyone not understand. :roll:
 
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dvboy

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Have you been to Birmingham New Street recently?

I'm pretty sure that whilst it might seem like a really easy thing to do, it might surprise some to know that (a) the departure boards at platform level that show all departures from the station are few and far between at Birmingham New Street and (b) when at a station the Guard/Train Manager has actually got responsibilities to attend to. I imagine Virgin trains have a policy on use of mobiles, though I couldn't tell you what it is, even if the guard had the time to check it (maybe they did, maybe they didn't, I wasn't there).

I'm there most days, and there is at least one on every platform.

If the TM had time to argue with the passenger on the platform, he has time to check that she is telling the truth, should he feel the need to. If not, the passenger can be told they are being given the benefit of the doubt, allowed to board, and any relevant checks can be made on board prior to a ticket check, where if found out to not be telling the truth, the appropriate ticket or penalty can be applied.

It's not unreasonable at all, even if you ignore any time constraints the Guard/Train Manager might be under. I doubt very much that the question of compensation even enters the guards mind, they might even think the compensation is actually good for the passenger (a free ride maybe!), but I doubt that would ever be considered 'good' by the passenger (or their followers) because it never fits the argument.

The TM would be aware though, that a 30+ minute delay means the passenger has a right to compensation for the delay, whether they actually claim it or not. Surely it's good for the TOC to avoid having to pay it (otherwise they might as well power the trains by burning ten pound notes all day) and good for the passenger to get to their destination as close to on time as possible?

Would I rather sit around for a hour waiting for a busy train full of already frustrated people travelling from the north, knowing that after filling a form out and posting it, I'll eventually get some of the cost of my ticket refunded as a voucher, OR get to my destination roughly on time in relatively more comfort? I know which I'd prefer.

The last half of your paragraph here makes no sense, I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Largely irrelevant I think.
It was relevant because of the disruption further north.

Maybe, but we will never know. It might be worth pointing out though, that on my recent trips through Oxford, where trains have been delayed and passengers 'advised' of other connections, Advance ticket holders have been advised to wait for their booked train.

This could also have been the case, but at Wolverhampton with VT's hourly trains to London, I've never experienced otherwise, and was pointing out that this was highly likely.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You think TOCs send out info about all delayed and cancelled services do you!

I give up, you lot think what you like, I will stick to knowing what I know!:roll:

I wouldn't expect a TM to know the details of every delay and cancellation, no, but I would expect them to have awareness of any general disruption on the network, have a basic understanding of the routes and normal timetable of the TOC, and to be able to access specific information when necessary.

You seem to imply that the TM is incapable of thinking of anything beyond the running of the service they are on.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In those circumstances, isn't the correct process then is to go to the customer service desk and ask them for advice? They can then authorise earlier travel (or tell you to wait and sort it out at the connecting station).

Have you tried this at Birmingham? The booked train will have arrived before you've explained yourself through the barriers and got any sense out of anyone at the ticket office or information desk (the latter is run by Network Rail who have no idea/care about ticketing).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The choice passengers take when booking their advance tickets from Birmingham and London is between a train which comes from 300-odd miles to the north and one which has come from London. One would expect that advance fares on the ones from the north should be more expensive but on some occasions they will not be disrupted when the ones coming from London are. Maybe this should be made clear at booking.

I would assume that the OP's partner probably booked on the 1330 because at the time of booking it was cheaper than the 1310. You wouldn't book onto a service 20 minutes later if it was more expensive. The lifting of restrictions on journeys starting at Preston or beyond would have meant there were people having paid all different amounts to travel on different trains anyway, so in this circumstance it is irrelevant to consider the amount someone has paid when deciding if they should be allowed to travel earlier.
 
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David Goddard

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The problem would have been eased if there was consistent platforming for regular frequency trains at Birmingham New Street (among other stations).

For example. if all London bound Pendolinos departed from (say) platforms 4 and 5 with dedicated staff on the island platform (as opposed to upstairs on the concourse) then information could be shared more easily with crews. Further to this, it would be more likely that these staff on the ground (who will have the information) would be approached with questions like the OP raised, rather than a train manager who has just taken over.
 

sheff1

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Further to this, it would be more likely that these staff on the ground (who will have the information) would be approached with questions like the OP raised, rather than a train manager who has just taken over.

The difficulty is that, according to staff on here, "the man on the platform said" is just another lie from passengers trying it on.

I assume the new design of ticket (with a space for endorsements) is an attempt to stop conflicts when passengers are acting on advice from station staff. Has, though, anyone actually succeeded in getting the 'man on the platform' to endorse a ticket in a way that is acceptable to 'the man on the train' ?
 
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snail

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Would I rather sit around for a hour waiting for a busy train full of already frustrated people travelling from the north, knowing that after filling a form out and posting it, I'll eventually get some of the cost of my ticket refunded as a voucher, OR get to my destination roughly on time in relatively more comfort? I know which I'd prefer.
But it's not your choice to make if you enter into a contract to use a specified service.

If you want the convenience of catching any train you buy a more expensive walk-on ticket. If you want to save money you take the risk of your train being delayed. As Dave Newcastle explained, in certain circumstances 'special arrangements' can be made - but this is not the customer's choice to make.
 

hairyhandedfool

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If someone is seeking to board a train which will leave before the delayed one on which they are booked, I cannot see how they can have possibly missed the earlier one and are thus 'trying it on' by seeking to board the train which is scheduled to follow but will actually leave earlier than the 'booked train'. How often this scenario arises is neither here nor there.

Perhaps you would like to make your point clearly for those of us who cannot easily grasp the concept of someone standing on a platform having missed a train which has not yet arrived.

Passenger misses train, passenger goes to Guard/TM of next service and claims the other train is very late (or cancelled) in order to be allowed travel on the later service.

You think TOCs send out info about all delayed and cancelled services do you!

I give up, you lot think what you like, I will stick to knowing what I know!:roll:

Rule one: Enthusiasts on forums ALWAYS know better than staff doing the job on a daily basis.:roll:

I'm there most days, and there is at least one on every platform....

And is the one screen on an 11+ coach platform in the same place as the Guard/Train Manager?

....If the TM had time to argue with the passenger on the platform, he has time to check that she is telling the truth, should he feel the need to. If not, the passenger can be told they are being given the benefit of the doubt, allowed to board, and any relevant checks can be made on board prior to a ticket check, where if found out to not be telling the truth, the appropriate ticket or penalty can be applied....

The Guard/Train Manager has a set amount of time to make sure the train is ready for service, it might be as short as ten minutes, or less if it arrived late. If in that time a passenger approaches and asks a question, the Guard/Train Manager will listen, answer and then try to get back to their job. Do you really think they have time to go running off to check a departure board at every stop just in case another train happens to be late? Do they have to go and check which stations those other trains were meant to have called at just in case a passenger from one of those stations happens to have missed their connecting train? Very idealistic this world you live in.

....The TM would be aware though, that a 30+ minute delay means the passenger has a right to compensation for the delay, whether they actually claim it or not. Surely it's good for the TOC to avoid having to pay it (otherwise they might as well power the trains by burning ten pound notes all day) and good for the passenger to get to their destination as close to on time as possible?....

I suspect that could be considered a debatable point.

....Would I rather sit around for a hour waiting for a busy train full of already frustrated people travelling from the north, knowing that after filling a form out and posting it, I'll eventually get some of the cost of my ticket refunded as a voucher, OR get to my destination roughly on time in relatively more comfort? I know which I'd prefer....

And you can choose by buying the correct ticket for that purpose, or you can pay less and be stuck with that decision.

....The last half of your paragraph here makes no sense, I don't know what you're trying to say here....

The bit about having money back on the ticket being good for the passenger but not fitting with any arguments about train delays always being bad and/or train companies being evil? Self explanatory I would have thought.

....It was relevant because of the disruption further north....

But not relevant to whether the ticket should be accepted on his/her train, or not.
 

sheff1

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Passenger misses train, passenger goes to Guard/TM of next service and claims the other train is very late (or cancelled) in order to be allowed travel on the later service.

Good to see you endorse the 'lying passenger' line, even when the evidence is 100% clear that the 1310 was behind the 1330.
 

455driver

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Thanks HHF, I coudnt be bothered with it anymore because they are just stating their supposition and offering it up as fact.

The display screens on the platforms normally only show the next departure from that platform, while there may be other screens showing all departures near the platform entrance/exit they will not be visible to the TM and there is no requirement for them to go and look for them, their primary concern is the safe and timely departure of their train, customer service is secondary to that, if people have a problem with that then tough because that is the way it is!

Question-

Why should a TM show poor customer service to everyone else on the train by delaying it while they sort out one persons problem?
 

455driver

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sheff1, what evidence?

the passenger told the TM the other train was late, that isnt proof!
 
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