VTEC DICE v a Great Northern ticket machine

[SaveECRewards]

I had a few minutes today and was near King's Cross so I thought I'd take a look at how difficult the new VTEC ticket machines make it to purchase tickets for immediate travel with a railcard (after someone Tweeted VTEC on Friday showing the steps they needed to go through).

Here I compare with a Great Northern ticket machine in the same station.

It took almost 3 times longer to use the VTEC machine and I think it would take even more than that if you were unfamiliar with how they worked (e.g. you tried to reserve a seat even though it's not possible at that short notice, or you decided to enter your Nectar details).

The big issue with Railcards is the interface is a mess. It lists all possible railcards, some are already greyed out (e.g. 2 together as only one person was travelling, and all the child ones were also greyed out). The ones that weren't greyed out included a lot of ones that aren't valid on the route selected (e.g. Scottish Youth Entitlement Card, Network Railcard, etc).

This could be easily solved by having a 'tickets for now' button which bypasses all the stuff that only makes sense for an advance purchase.

 

[alistairlees]

Do you know who makes these machines?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree an "I know what I want" button would help, but to many people the step by step nature of the VT machine will be appreciated.

 

[Bungle965]

Do you know who makes these machines?

The VTEC machines are made by Parkeon.
Sam

 

[SaveECRewards]

I agree an "I know what I want" button would help, but to many people the step by step nature of the VT machine will be appreciated.

I think it'll annoy more people than will appreciate. Think about a typical ticket office in a large station. It is usually split into tickets for today and tickets in advance. The tickets in advance queue would move slower than the tickets for today while people would discuss their options.

Those in the tickets for today queue would just say "Return to Doncaster, I've got a railcard" - a follow up question might be "when are you returning?" if there's both day and open returns from a particular destination.

Even the step by step mode for those people who do want advance tickets has a lot to be desired (such as showing railcards that don't apply in the area booked).

VTEC have effectively turned their machines into a big 'tickets in advance' section. It means people who really do need a ticket now will be slowed down because not only will their transaction take longer people will also be standing longer in the queue waiting while others struggle.

The VTEC machines are made by Parkeon.
Sam

Heathrow Express have the same machines - I've not used their machines though as their eTicketing works well so never had the need to. Does the HEX use the same software as VTEC?

 

[philjo]

I found using the VTEC machines at Leeds recently somewhat awkward just to buy an off-peak day return as I had to select specific trains etc. At least they do allow tickets starting from another station. I needed some tickets for the next day starting from another station as I have an annual season covering part of the route. One of the 2 Great Northern machines next to platform 9 at Kings Cross used to issue tickets from another station but this option is not available on the new machines. I eventually got the tickets using one of the VTEC machines.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I found using the VTEC machines at Leeds recently somewhat awkward just to buy an off-peak day return as I had to select specific trains etc. At least they do allow tickets starting from another station. I needed some tickets for the next day starting from another station as I have an annual season covering part of the route. One of the 2 Great Northern machines next to platform 9 at Kings Cross used to issue tickets from another station but this option is not available on the new machines. I eventually got the tickets using one of the VTEC machines.

The London Overground implementation of Worldline FastTicket is the most useful one of the lot as far as I'm concerned. Doesn't do reservations but does allow you to change your start point (including from boundary zones), it allows you to book rovers (including ALR) and none of this detracts from the default functionality of being able to buy tickets from that station on the day of travel.

Before VTEC got rid of FastTicket some of their machines were also set up to specify a different start point, these were the ones that were on the revenue side of the ticket barriers (so people who didn't have a ticket could purchase one at this point).

Let's be honest the vast majority of people who are buying tickets from the machines don't want things like reservations (well they might if you could book one on the train that's departing in 5 minutes), they want a ticket and they want it quickly. Those who don't book tickets online probably wouldn't feel comfortable booking using the machines which is just a clunkier version of the online experience so they'd seek out ticket offices.

If VTEC go ahead with their plans for 'customer zones' they need to make the experience more friendly and maybe have a section of machines that are just for immediate travel so you don't get stuck behind someone with a complicated booking.

 

[jon0844]

While I have no problem with branding, I think RDG should have at some point made it a requirement for the whole railway to use a standard user interface. By all means let different companies bid to supply machines running the software (as you would expect with Sky, Youview and the like) but have a system that people can learn and understand no matter where they travel.

I am also a firm believer that you can have a wizard style setup for complicated ticketing purchases and a faster method for regulars, and any half decent app designer can still make the whole thing intuitive and simple.

 

[SaveECRewards]

Yesterday before getting the IET (or Green Azuma as I like to call it to remind people that the class 800 was not a Virgin invention). I did a quick test with FastTicket at Paddington, it wouldn't sell me a ticket to Donny, presumably it doesn't want people to get confused and think they can get to Doncaster from there, so I used Bristol instead. As expected the FastTicket machine was the quickest of the lot.

It looks like Atos has a portfolio of the best rail retail products around (from a customer facing perspective, I have no idea how things like Tribute work compared to the competition). Are train operators replacing Atos systems like WebTIS and FastTicket to save money (at one point it seemed Atos had acquired all the major systems in rail retail so they could probably charge extortionate licensing and support fees) or do they genuinely expect in the long run these new systems will improve the passenger experience.

My initial thought was it was a bit of the former and some of the latter. But the ticket machines and booking engine from the DICE project seems to have been so poorly thought out.

While I have no problem with branding, I think RDG should have at some point made it a requirement for the whole railway to use a standard user interface. By all means let different companies bid to supply machines running the software (as you would expect with Sky, Youview and the like) but have a system that people can learn and understand no matter where they travel.

I am also a firm believer that you can have a wizard style setup for complicated ticketing purchases and a faster method for regulars, and any half decent app designer can still make the whole thing intuitive and simple.

Interesting thought. Makes sense in stations I think, but I'd still allow innovation in online booking engines. After all it's easier to choose a different booking engine than it is to choose a station.

Branding... that's one thing that surprised me about the VTEC machines, they're grey and the interface is also grey. The Heathrow Express uses the same hardware (never used them so can't comment on the software) and their machines look a lot more attractive with the branding.

 

[BurtonM]

FastTicket is fine - TPE are still using it too but they keep messing with the UI (twice since the franchise started now). There was nothing wrong with standard FastTicket UI but now there are about 3 'buy ticket' buttons and the layout keeps getting worse and a bit laggy.

 

[SaveECRewards]

FastTicket is fine - TPE are still using it too but they keep messing with the UI (twice since the franchise started now). There was nothing wrong with standard FastTicket UI but now there are about 3 'buy ticket' buttons and the layout keeps getting worse and a bit laggy.

Have you seen the massive screen versions? I've seen them at Manchester Airport and inside the ticket office at Paddington (although I used a regular one on the concourse)

 

[ooo]

It sounds like they have become more like machines found on the continent like SNCF'S

 

[Bletchleyite]

Re branding I believe TOCs have been requested (I'm not sure how strong the request was) not to brand TVMs so that people don't think only that TOC's tickets are sold.

 

[jon0844]

Interesting thought. Makes sense in stations I think, but I'd still allow innovation in online booking engines. After all it's easier to choose a different booking engine than it is to choose a station.

I think it's a lot different online as you can pick and choose the system/app you prefer, which you can't at a station. A station ticket machine needs to be truly accessible for all and for that to work I believe there needs to be consistency.

By doing that, you also allow for online help/leaflets that can be handed out (perhaps in multiple languages) to help people, although the best user interfaces are those that need no explanation.

 

[island]

I suppose one argument is that VTEC customers from KGX will, in general, not be using walk-up tickets, and that the TVMs should cater a bit better for that.

 

[BurtonM]

Have you seen the massive screen versions?

My local station is Stalybridge which doesn't have one. I think I used the ones at Manchester Airport once a few months ago, they were OK then but they might have messed with the UI since. They're a bit better than the small screen ones though, the small screen one has the credit card reader/PIN pad as low down as the ticket hopper and people struggle to find/reach it.

Re branding I believe TOCs have been requested (I'm not sure how strong the request was) not to brand TVMs so that people don't think only that TOC's tickets are sold.

I don't think the TPE machines are branded physically but the machine is painted in TPE corporate colours and the UI is branded and has an animated splash screen (is that really necessary?). I'll have to check next time I go out on the train.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I suppose one argument is that VTEC customers from KGX will, in general, not be using walk-up tickets, and that the TVMs should cater a bit better for that.

What's the market for booking advance tickets from a vending machine? A lot smaller than the market for people who need to travel now.

Those booking in advance will use a computer, telesales or ticket desk, whichever they're most comfortable with. Those who don't feel comfortable with the web aren't going to feel comfortable with this and so they're going to go to the ticket office (while they remain).

In the meantime, it's simple to cater for both needs by having two separate buttons, one for immediate travel and one for future travel

 

[alistairlees]

What's the market for booking advance tickets from a vending machine? A lot smaller than the market for people who need to travel now.

"Travel Now" and "Booking an Advance ticket" are no longer mutually exclusive though, with the proliferation of Advance Purchase on the Day (APOD). I know APOD is a bit of a contradiction in terms, but it's seemingly here to stay. So TVMs need to sell these now too (when they are available) for customers / passengers / travellers* who want to make a journey now or very soon.


*delete according to preference

 

[SaveECRewards]

"Travel Now" and "Booking an Advance ticket" are no longer mutually exclusive though, with the proliferation of Advance Purchase on the Day (APOD). I know APOD is a bit of a contradiction in terms, but it's seemingly here to stay. So TVMs need to sell these now too (when they are available) for customers / passengers / travellers* who want to make a journey now or very soon.


*delete according to preference

They're still different enough until VTEC Azumas launch with electronic reservations and they put the reservation deadline closer to departure. At the moment if you're reserving an advance on the day there's still a long enough wait that you're extremely unlikely to book it at the station as people aren't going to turn up at the station and then wait 2+ hours for the train.

So the argument still stands. One button can say 'Immediate travel' and the other can say 'Future travel' with some text indicating it also allows reservations later in the day.

Hopefully when the Azumas have launched we might get a user interface that's a bit better for short notice reservations. In the meantime make it easy for the customer.

Also we need to change the names of tickets. Advance confuses people, more so when booked on the day. But you get many people thinking Advance means any ticket booked for future travel. Not sure of a good name... fixed?

 

[Wallsendmag]

They're still different enough until VTEC Azumas launch with electronic reservations and they put the reservation deadline closer to departure. At the moment if you're reserving an advance on the day there's still a long enough wait that you're extremely unlikely to book it at the station as people aren't going to turn up at the station and then wait 2+ hours for the train.

So the argument still stands. One button can say 'Immediate travel' and the other can say 'Future travel' with some text indicating it also allows reservations later in the day.

Hopefully when the Azumas have launched we might get a user interface that's a bit better for short notice reservations. In the meantime make it easy for the customer.

Also we need to change the names of tickets. Advance confuses people, more so when booked on the day. But you get many people thinking Advance means any ticket booked for future travel. Not sure of a good name... fixed?

You need to see the big picture we are not the only TOC to serve the stations that have our TVMs TPE Northern and XC all have APOD I believe

 

[SaveECRewards]

You need to see the big picture we are not the only TOC to serve the stations that have our TVMs TPE Northern and XC all have APOD I believe

It's still a massive decline in user experience for the vast majority of people who just want a ticket for the next train and being up to 3 times slower than the previous procedure doesn't help if queues are forming.

There has to be a simpler way to ensure that tickets can be processed faster for the vast majority that want a ticket for now.

Even if we have to support reservations there's still some glaring issues such as showing railcards that can't be used on the journey selected.

 

[FQTV]

Personally, I think that the new VTEC machines are the best possible thing that could have happened.

Quite apart from the dismal user interface and process flow, and their schocking reliability, they're so badly set up that, regularly, they can't even get the 'out of order' light on top of them to work correctly.

I've regularly seen the only operational machine in a bank proudly glowing its red 'out of order' beacon, while the other dead as sticks ones twinkle green from atop.

So, they're so appallingly awful that they must have put back any notions of being able to close ticket offices by years - thankfully.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's quite astonishing that they are that bad, really. Ticket machine software is hardly the most complicated thing in the world. I reckon using VB or similar I could knock something decent up in an evening.

 

[SaveECRewards]

It's quite astonishing that they are that bad, really. Ticket machine software is hardly the most complicated thing in the world. I reckon using VB or similar I could knock something decent up in an evening.

@FQTV had it spot on above! The positive this can bring is it should (if they have any sense) slow down the ticket office closures (although VTEC would prefer I refer to it as introduction of customer zones).

Perhaps they can change the colours of the lights on the top and just pretend it's mood lighting.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I had one of their machines just hang (unresponsive) today when I was part way through the process of buying a ticket. First time that's happened to me, has it happened to anyone else?

 

[91103eastcoast]

I had one of their machines just hang (unresponsive) today when I was part way through the process of buying a ticket. First time that's happened to me, has it happened to anyone else?

It has happened to me at York, Peterborough and King’s Cross, and with a mix of advances and walk on fares being (or attempted to be) purchased.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think they are a good idea absolutely terribly implemented, personally. FWIW, Virgin Group seem rather "good" at that kind of thing

 

[91103eastcoast]

Does any other forum user find travelcards printed from the new Virgin Trains East Coast ticket machines seem to never work barriers on the Underground? I have noticed when I buy or collect a Peterborough to London Zones 1-6 Super Off Peak Travelcard route GT Northern Only it never seems to work the barriers, but if I buy from the ticket office it works tube barriers completely fine.

 

[Hadders]

I’ve had this problem with the new VTEC TVM at Stevenage. There are a couple of forum members who were able to assist and will probably do so for you too.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'll have a look into it tomorrow, it's a problem we had before but managed to fix. It may have reoccurred somehow.