VTEC to reduce number of travel centre staff

[Bletchleyite]

This is where we need a step change in thinking before it's too late. Employment is an essential part of the well being of the human condition. Lack of employment leads to loss of purpose, depression and in extremis, death. Provision of decent jobs needs to be seen as a goal in and of itself rather than a byproduct of making money for a business. Take a trip to places like the Notts Coalfield, which I'm only too familiar with, or the South Wales Valleys to see what happens when the jobs go.

In many other countries if that happens people relocate to where the work is. In plenty of other industries even in the UK people do do that.

But I don't want this to turn into a red vs. blue debate, it shows signs of doing so. I'm not a Tory, but it is a fact that in a capitalist economy jobs exist to fulfil the needs of business, not the needs of employees. Going fully the other way is going a long, long way left, and that just won't happen in the UK.

 

[Starmill]

Possibly because unemployment is not rampant, but in fact well under the average for the past three decades.

Data which - incredibly conveniently - calculates percentages out of the Labour Force rather than adults of working age, and excludes people who aren't looking for work because they've been demoralised out of the market. You have to have sought work in the past four weeks to be considered unemployed by the ILO definition.

While these are relatively small effects I think it's likely to be quite significant when you add it to underemployment. The best evidence for that is chronic lack of wage growth and increasing self-employment and part-time only workers. Of course these are not definitive, but why the increase?

The key point I was making is very well commented on: the Government could do a lot to help the low-skilled and low-paid, but they aren't doing, while they are helping the well-paid get better returns on saving or buy their own house at great expense in tax revenue or public funds.

These concepts need to be managed at the Macro level, and that needs a Government that cares about everyone getting more skills, a good job and better wages - not just those likely to vote Conservative. Changes to booking offices and TVMs are not going to have a significant effect here.

 

[absolutelymilk]

Data which - incredibly conveniently - calculates percentages out of the Labour Force rather than adults of working age

If they calculated it as a percentage of working age adults, the unemployment rate would be even lower.

Changes to booking offices and TVMs are not going to have a significant effect here.

No they will not - but if the rail industry can use the money currently spend on staff who could be replaced by TVMs, and increase the number of services, then more people will be able to commute to work.

 

[D1009]

If, as some claim, the DfT is hell bent on reducing staff numbers at stations, why has Northern MD Alex Hynes written in the latest Modern Railways that as part of the new franchise deal, staff are to be introduced at 45 stations which are currently unstaffed, and hours of staffing are to be increased at a further 54 stations?

 

[43074]

If, as some claim, the DfT is hell bent on reducing staff numbers at stations, why has Northern MD Alex Hynes written in the latest Modern Railways that as part of the new franchise deal, staff are to be introduced at 45 stations which are currently unstaffed, and hours of staffing are to be increased at a further 54 stations?

... but then again there are some very strong hints about implementing DCO, e.g. where he mentions ''bringing operating practices into line with the 21st century'' or words to that effect.

 

[Andyh82]

Depends if they are talking about travel centres or ticket windows.

I associate the former with advance sales and complicated transactions that wouldn't be able to be done from a machine on the concourse.

If it's ticket windows, then they might as well just have more full sized ticket machines.

 

[route101]

There is a few things on Scotrail TVMS you cant get such as plus bus and rovers/spt daytripper and roundabout . Any plans to allow this?

 

[D1009]

... but then again there are some very strong hints about implementing DCO, e.g. where he mentions ''bringing operating practices into line with the 21st century'' or words to that effect.

I don't see the relevance of that to this thread, unless you are suggesting they are going to need extra dispatch staff because of DCO.

 

[absolutelymilk]

If, as some claim, the DfT is hell bent on reducing staff numbers at stations, why has Northern MD Alex Hynes written in the latest Modern Railways that as part of the new franchise deal, staff are to be introduced at 45 stations which are currently unstaffed, and hours of staffing are to be increased at a further 54 stations?

Presumably (and hopefully) they may reduce staff at stations which already have staff and introduce them to ones which don't have any currently. i.e. there will be one or two members of staff available at more times and at more stations, but busy stations/times won't see a corresponding rise in staff because these can be dealt with by the TVMs.

 

[yorksrob]

I see no benefit of that at all, unless they are going to wander around a larger set of fixed TVMs and instruct passengers on their use. Give a man a fish...

Even then, for me a lot of the tickets I buy are for beyond the zone boundary, so TVM's wouldn't be of use.
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I'm not sure that tickets purchased online are a bad thing - it's just progress. It is much more convenient than having to go to the station. That is sad for the staff concerned, but such is progress.

TVMs are also not a bad thing - if for no other reason than that you can get two slimline ones in the space of one ticket window, and have staff help people with them.

But it would be nice if the fare structure was simplified properly so using them would be easier.

I disagree. I find buying online a lot of faffing around, typing in numbers, waiting for screens to load, has it gone through etc.

Buying from a human is generally much easier (even when I have to talk them through what ticket I want).

 

[185143]

Split tickets will be a pain in the arse, as well as using RTVs...

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

 

[yorksrob]

The online thing is a big killer - especially the fact pretty much anywhere with a mobile signal I can book tickets online and collect them seconds later from literally any TVM across the network.

And don't get me started on trying to do anything on mobile phones !
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If the ticket offices close, it's fairly straightforward to argue that our job no longer exists, so the company can legally make us redundant. Of course, headcount will be at least maintained with these new roles - but with favourable T&Cs consigned to history. Where I am for example, Sunday working is voluntary, paid at time + 75% and working hours are family friendly. The ambassador role has Sundays inside the working week, no such enhancement and working hours potentially round the clock.

Yes, that wouldn't surprise me, along with the worse service for passengers.
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I agree, and think the Dutch method of a small fee for making transactions at a manned ticket window that could be made at a TVM, with staff assistance if necessary, is a reasonable approach to keep those few windows open for exceptional transactions. Even 50p or £1 would work - small amounts still have psychological power.

Go to Leeds - you will find that there is plenty of demand from customers for manned ticket windows. Big business ought to serve customers in the way they want for a change.

My local bank got stripped out and kitted out like the starship enterprise a couple of years ago. The banks of machines largely remained empty with a huge queue for the one remaining casier guaranteed.

 

[Greenback]

I'm not sure that the argument that closing travel centres will lead to more or better services holds a lot of water. Any money saved will simply be reflected in a better balance sheet. It could possibly lead to money being spent elsewhere, but for some reason I have my doubts.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm not sure that the argument that closing travel centres will lead to more or better services holds a lot of water. Any money saved will simply be reflected in a better balance sheet. It could possibly lead to money being spent elsewhere, but for some reason I have my doubts.

such a cynic

 

[Greenback]

Me? I don't what you mean!

 

[route:oxford]

So some staff will be moved out from behind a window and will be switched to floor-walking with a mobile sales device instead?

There's absolutely no reason why a device that's connected to a WiFi service within the station will have any less functionality than a desktop device. Stand with the customer, working through the options on a decent size screen then send to printer - either about the person or nearby...

Perhaps they are doing it themselves before a competitor starts providing the service in major Network Rail operated station? Essentially all it would just be an ATOC travel agent licence and engage with one of the software and hardware providers. I believe the commission rate is around 3%

How much could someone with "chugger" experience earn at a major station by selling tickets whilst walking the customer to the relevant platform?

 

[ainsworth74]

Are they actually closing the travel centres though? The original article, to me, reads as if they're reducing the number of staff in the travel centres and deploying them onto concourse/platform areas?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If, as some claim, the DfT is hell bent on reducing staff numbers at stations, why has Northern MD Alex Hynes written in the latest Modern Railways that as part of the new franchise deal, staff are to be introduced at 45 stations which are currently unstaffed, and hours of staffing are to be increased at a further 54 stations?

This is the very same MD who's had to backtrack on a statement he made about all "Connect" services being run with brand new 100mph trains.

Note, though, that it is "staff" being introduced, not ticket offices, or sales points, not even necessarily railway employees, just "staff". Could be staff with a STAR Mobile, perhaps split shift/part time staff, might even be agency staff like STM.

 

[Hadders]

I assume this will mean the VTEC ticket office at Stevenage closing? I never really understood why there was one right next to the GTR one, but it would be a shame - the staff there are very good.

Let's hope it stays open - I agree the staff working there are excellent. I heard they were considering extending their opening hours when the GTR office closes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the very same MD who's had to backtrack on a statement he made about all "Connect" services being run with brand new 100mph trains.

I find him to be full of fluff and little actual substance. I was very disappointed Arriva kept him on.

 

[Robertj21a]

Can I please point out that rampant unemployment and crucially underemployment has almost nothing to do with technology and almost everything to do with a Government that doesn't see this as a problem...

What 'rampant unemployment' are you talking about ?

 

[Mintona]

As someone who only ever buys a ticket from a booking office, I find this news disappointing. TVMs just don't sell the tickets I need to buy, and I prefer to speak to a person than deal with a machine in the rain/sunlight so bright I can't see the screen.

And how many of these people in 'record employment' have zero hours jobs that won't allow them to buy a house, or anything else that needs credit, and could potentially not be paid for months on end?

 

[absolutelymilk]

And how many of these people in 'record employment' have zero hours jobs that won't allow them to buy a house, or anything else that needs credit, and could potentially not be paid for months on end?

Around 2.5%. Of whom only 37% actually wanted more hours, equivalent to just under 1% of the workforce.

ONS Zero hour contract statisics

 

[Camden]

I think that is a rather simplistic rebuttal, because of course what it doesn't examine is who might have taken those jobs instead, had they been offered on normal terms.

We know there are almost entire workforces out there on zero hours, and this reflects a fundamental problem which places pressure on the system.

Looking at levels of wages, in some parts of the country more than others, where pay hasn't risen in line with levels of employment, and anyone who wants to say "you've never had it so good" is I think looking a bit foolish, not to say lofty and thumbing their nose at a lot of people who are struggling daily.

 

[jon0844]

I find buying online a lot of faffing around, typing in numbers, waiting for screens to load, has it gone through etc.

Buying from a human is generally much easier (even when I have to talk them through what ticket I want).

I have no problem with technology, but buying tickets on a smartphone app has given me loads of problems in the past - including many situations where not all tickets are available.

Like tickets missing on the GWR app, which has been fixed because of me mentioning the problem here and someone being proactive to sort it in a matter of days. Joe Public generally doesn't have such 'access' and probably would end up paying more.

I see at Hatfield that GoVia is saying that following feedback it is temporarily suspending its plans, but I think that if you quickly read it you might get the impression that they've decided against their plans. Of course, read carefully and it's clear that they haven't scrapped their plans - just delayed things.

I think a lot of people might now think they won, without realising that the pressure needs to be kept up or else the changes will still happen right underneath our noses.

Yesterday was a good example of the chaos of having no ticket window. Only one window was in operation at Hatfield when I got there at 1740, but as I arrived the window was closed with a board showing it would re-open at 1810.

The TVM out front was out of service, and hardly anyone knows about the one at the back (outside). So the queue for the two remaining machines quickly became huge. Contrary to what Govia might think, not everyone going into London after 5pm is a season ticket holder - indeed, from what I saw waiting for my train, most people need to buy tickets.

When the man at the gate noticed the queues building up, he advised people to go around and use the other TVM and soon there was quite a queue there too.

Clearly GTR needed BOTH windows open and sufficient staffing to keep them open even if one member of staff is due a break. The thought of closing the windows permanently just can't work as it does on the Underground because too many people are needing to buy tickets, not just tap in with a smartcard or CPC.

So some staff will be moved out from behind a window and will be switched to floor-walking with a mobile sales device instead?

There's absolutely no reason why a device that's connected to a WiFi service within the station will have any less functionality than a desktop device. Stand with the customer, working through the options on a decent size screen then send to printer - either about the person or nearby...

Perhaps they are doing it themselves before a competitor starts providing the service in major Network Rail operated station? Essentially all it would just be an ATOC travel agent licence and engage with one of the software and hardware providers. I believe the commission rate is around 3%

How much could someone with "chugger" experience earn at a major station by selling tickets whilst walking the customer to the relevant platform?

I would have no problem if the railway AS A WHOLE (i.e. ATOC and DfT working together) had a set plan to change things.

Perhaps setting a date 5 or 10 years in the future, whereby ticket windows will be shut nationally, and staff retained and relocated on the platforms/concourses to aid passengers.

And within that timeframe, we would have smartcards introduced that work throughout the UK rail network, simplified ticketing (let's not debate the pros and cons here!), CPC acceptance, payment by phone or whatever.

In other words, once we have the technology in place to allow people easy travel without needing to go to a ticket window, then you can seek to close them.

What some TOCs appear to be doing is looking at London and thinking what a wonderful idea it is to replicate it, when the circumstances are totally different.

I still can't use The Key to travel into London, even though it was almost a year ago that I first used it successfully to buy a point to point ticket. Everything on posters still suggests Govia thinks the Key is just for season ticket holders. I see no evidence that they're in any rush to extend it to normal day tickets, or introduce PAYG. Yet, they tried to rush ticket office closures in less than a year.

 

[absolutelymilk]

The TVM out front was out of service, and hardly anyone knows about the one at the back (outside). So the queue for the two remaining machines quickly became huge. Contrary to what Govia might think, not everyone going into London after 5pm is a season ticket holder - indeed, from what I saw waiting for my train, most people need to buy tickets.

Sounds like more TVMs are what is needed here rather than more staff.

Looking at levels of wages, in some parts of the country more than others, where pay hasn't risen in line with levels of employment, and anyone who wants to say "you've never had it so good" is I think looking a bit foolish, not to say lofty and thumbing their nose at a lot of people who are struggling daily.

Of course, just because people on average are doing well doesn't mean that an awful lot of people aren't struggling - that 1% of the workforce represents around 300,000 people. Perhaps some of those only want a couple of extra hours a week, but I am sure there will be many who are struggling to keep their head above water.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I find him to be full of fluff and little actual substance. I was very disappointed Arriva kept him on.

I think you are being kind there.

Sounds like more TVMs are what is needed here rather than more staff....

Depends on many things, but using my experience and average people (staff and passenger), I'd say a ticket office is of more use.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As someone who only ever buys a ticket from a booking office, I find this news disappointing. TVMs just don't sell the tickets I need to buy

Privs, I assume? It would not be rocket science to have TVMs sell them. In order to ensure they are checked, they could be set to always reject for manual verification at any barriers.

and I prefer to speak to a person than deal with a machine in the rain/sunlight so bright I can't see the screen.

Most TVMs do not have this issue.

And how many of these people in 'record employment' have zero hours jobs that won't allow them to buy a house, or anything else that needs credit, and could potentially not be paid for months on end?

Unless we change to a very left-wing political climate, that is of no concern of the railway - its role in terms of jobs is to employ people it requires to do the jobs it needs doing. It is not a job creation agency. And if we do want job creation agencies, there are probably more efficient ways of having them than that - I'd start with keeping parks, streets, public lavatories (where provided) etc in a very high standard of cleanliness and repair, for instance.
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I think you are being kind there.

Depends on many things, but using my experience and average people (staff and passenger), I'd say a ticket office is of more use.

An awful lot of people don't use TVMs because they are basically scared of them. Would roving staff to assist not help solve this? Both ticket offices and TVMs have their role - the former for complicated things, the latter for simple things - but so many people are clogging up the queue for ticket offices to buy a return to London, and need not do so.
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Perhaps setting a date 5 or 10 years in the future, whereby ticket windows will be shut nationally, and staff retained and relocated on the platforms/concourses to aid passengers.

And within that timeframe, we would have smartcards introduced that work throughout the UK rail network, simplified ticketing (let's not debate the pros and cons here!), CPC acceptance, payment by phone or whatever.

In other words, once we have the technology in place to allow people easy travel without needing to go to a ticket window, then you can seek to close them.

Yes, I think such a strategy on such a timeframe would be sensible. In 10 years' time, if you look at how much online booking and TVMs have advanced in the last 10-15[1] years, there will be even less call for booking offices. If a strategy to design out procedural complication in ticketing was implemented[2], an approach more like that of NS is probably viable.

[1] 15 years ago people thought it was not feasible to have a TVM selling tickets to all destinations from a given station. Then VT deployed the first Shere FastTicket machines, and those people had to rethink. Now this is the norm.

[2] Ideas (not perfect, but this kind of thing would be moving the right way):
- Abolish annual season tickets, replacing with a monthly ticket paid by direct debit only, obtained online/by phone, with a 12 month minimum contract.
- Abolish season ticket changeovers, if you need to change refund and reissue (a discount could be applied in some way if provable electronically)
- Railcards to be available online/by phone/from selected main stations only
- Tickets bought online to be tagged to payment card so this can be used for travel contactless
- PAYG/Contactless for travel within local zones
- Full e-ticketing so all tickets are only a reference to a ticket in a database rather than an actual ticket. For example if you have a mobile ticket and your battery fails, you can reprint (provided you have your railway username and password) from a TVM
- All pricing as singles. Excesses abolished entirely replaced by refund and reissue; admin fee discounted or removed if a replacement ticket is bought on the spot

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....An awful lot of people don't use TVMs because they are basically scared of them. Would roving staff to assist not help solve this? Both ticket offices and TVMs have their role - the former for complicated things, the latter for simple things - but so many people are clogging up the queue for ticket offices to buy a return to London, and need not do so....

Both have pros and cons.

As a general rule I think ticket offices are capable of issuing tickets more quickly (though I accept this is a debatable point), they are capable of giving better advice (though roving staff might be able to assist just as well), are currently able to issue a wider range of tickets, can take account of time restricted tickets, should be unbiased (roving staff may not be) and will make sure the passenger takes with them every ticket printed*. Ticket office ticket machines can be re-stocked with tickets in less than a minute, TVMs take longer, and, from experience, TVMs are more prone to damage and failure (a ticket office might also have another machine to use). Ticket offices do require staff to be available though.



*rather than the person expecting two tickets (out and return), collecting two tickets, running off for the train and then realising the second ticket is actually just a booked place reservation for the outward journey, with the next person left confused by all the tickets they find when they have bought their tickets (and probably leaving before all theirs are printed as well).

 

[Bletchleyite]

*rather than the person expecting two tickets (out and return), collecting two tickets, running off for the train and then realising the second ticket is actually just a booked place reservation for the outward journey, with the next person left confused by all the tickets they find when they have bought their tickets (and probably leaving before all theirs are printed as well).

For Advances that is solved by the "print it all on one ticket" approach. For walk-ups I wish they still did that. A line saying "you may also use other trains subject to published restrictions" would have done.

And they should stop issuing "collection receipts", as they are pointless. And also make credit/debit card receipts optional, as most people do not want them these days - shops have already started this. Just issue a combined card and payment receipt if requested by pressing a nice big button at any time from selection of ticket until printing is completed.