VTEC warn Harrogate services unlikely if paths allocated to other operators

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Bayum

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But of a no-news article from my local paper.

Wetherby News said:
Revolutionary promises to introduce 14 trains a day between London and Harrogate from 2019 could be at risk with four competing companies battling for use of the line.

In November 2014, Virgin Trains East Coast (VTEC) were awarded the East Coast Main Line franchise and promised a new two-hour direct service to London from Harrogate.

http://m.wetherbynews.co.uk/news/bu...arrogate-london-service-is-in-doubt-1-7870530
 
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jayah

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Dear Richard Branson,

It is called competition. You behave very different when the boot is on the other foot.
 

tonysk14

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Dear Richard Branson,

It is called competition. You behave very different when the boot is on the other foot.

Firstly Branson has nothing to do with this, do you really think he micro manages every single detail in every company.

And secondly it is a simple fact, if the paths are given to open access operators VTEC can't run it's trains.
 

IanXC

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Surely this is absolute nonsesne?!

VTECs Harrogate services are proposed to be extensions of their Leeds services are they not?

Northern's franchise agreement specifically requires they relinquish paths for the holder of the ICEC franchise to operate 2 hourly to Harrogate.

There are no OAO applications for Harrogate...

So this issue is quite what VTEC?!
 

ainsworth74

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I'm sure I read somewhere that they were going via Hambleton for the extra Harrogate services so that might be where the issue with paths comes from?
 

IanXC

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I'm sure I read somewhere that they were going via Hambleton for the extra Harrogate services so that might be where the issue with paths comes from?

Hmm, that would mean either a reduction in service at Wakefield Westgate or an increase to 5tp2h Leeds-London (neither of which we've not heard about...)

I would bet that if VTEC gave up a path via Wakefield, XC would divert their Doncaster service via Leeds, so balancing up the paths allocated to franchise operators before we get to OAO...
 

ainsworth74

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Perhaps I got the wrong end of the stick. I'm trying to remember where I read it but it's escaping me for now!
 

ainsworth74

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Aha! I found it it. It's in the latest issue of Rail. I've attached the relevant portion:

ECML access.png

Rail 798 Page 12
 

backontrack

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5tp2h to Leeds sounds interesting! I realise that York is losing a bi-hourly London train in that case - will this be restored when the Middlesbrough services commence? Thanks.
 

Agent_c

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Dear Richard Branson,

It is called competition. You behave very different when the boot is on the other foot.

Dear Jayanh

I only own 10% of VTEC. Please address your concerns to Mr Souter who owns the other 90%

Love and Kisses

Richard.
 

43074

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5tp2h to Leeds sounds interesting! I realise that York is losing a bi-hourly London train in that case - will this be restored when the Middlesbrough services commence? Thanks.

York is due to get 3tph to London, the Middlesbrough service will allow 1tp2h to run non stop to Newcastle and on to Edinburgh in 4 hours. There will be an extra path from Kings Cross to Grantham/Newark every hour and the Harrogate service will be every other one of these (alternating with Lincoln IIRC).
 
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alexl92

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14 trains per day between London and Harrogate? Is there even demand for that?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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14 trains per day between London and Harrogate? Is there even demand for that?

Don't suppose they'd propose it with out some belief in such a market existing. They certainly won't be carting fresh air as the VTEC services between Leeds and Harrogate would run instead of one of Northern's services which by then should be 4tph on that stretch with two of them likely to be non-stops.

I happen to have had family connections to Harrogate all my life and have visited many times. When talking about transport there are two wishes regularly expressed: a proper road by-pass/ring-road and a regular through rail service to/from London. Remember Harrogate has a conference centre with plenty of local businesses providing ancillary support services. It has to compete with many other places and its supporters believe their level of business is hampered by lack of said London trains.
 

YorkshireBear

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Spent 3 years using Burley Park on the Harrogate Line. Regularly up the loop to drink beer at the many fine establishments.

Lots and lots of people with suitcases change from the Northern service onto London service. I imagine there are more who don't because of the Northern rolling stock. Good move in my opinion!
 

class26

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The service is axed to 7 trains per day within a few paragraphs of the article......


It was Ryan air style spin ie 14 trains in real life means 7 returns services. 7 x 2 = 14. Nothing has been axed
 

jayah

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Dear Jayanh

I only own 10% of VTEC. Please address your concerns to Mr Souter who owns the other 90%

Love and Kisses

Richard.

According to the Harrogate Advertiser Richard Branson's Virgin Trains has promised these trains.

As has been pointed out, the paths once every 2hr already exist as KGX-York. This is a classic case of holding people to ransom by threatening the Harrogate services if they don't have their own way on blocking more competition.

Frankly I don't care how Souter and Branson organise their joint bank account, you have missed the point there.

If VTEC don't perform on their franchise obligations they need to be told now it will be in default, and DfT will not be taking prisoners.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Its for the predicted growth in the tea room and spa water market, dontchaknow?

It is almost exactly the same size as Chester, with a large catchment. Assuming they will call at Horsforth that is a fair wedge of North Leeds too.
 

Class 170101

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If VTEC didn't get the access as described why not just extend the existing Leeds services to Harrogate instead?

Two hourly to Bradford and opposite two hourly to Harrogate? It still leaves the other Leeds service available to be extended to Huddersfield (daily) and Skipton (daily).
 

Shaw S Hunter

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If VTEC didn't get the access as described why not just extend the existing Leeds services to Harrogate instead?

Two hourly to Bradford and opposite two hourly to Harrogate? It still leaves the other Leeds service available to be extended to Huddersfield (daily) and Skipton (daily).

I think VTEC want to minimize platform occupation at Leeds by having any Bradford or Harrogate services approach from the east ie via Hambleton S & W Junctions. If they divert an existing Leeds service this will surely leave them short of their commitment to serving Wakefield.
 

bb21

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Dear Jayanh

I only own 10% of VTEC. Please address your concerns to Mr Souter who owns the other 90%

Love and Kisses

Richard.

Mr Souter owns 90% of VTEC?

Jesus he must be a richer man than I thought. :lol:
 

Class 170101

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I think VTEC want to minimize platform occupation at Leeds by having any Bradford or Harrogate services approach from the east ie via Hambleton S & W Junctions. If they divert an existing Leeds service this will surely leave them short of their commitment to serving Wakefield.

Not suggesting avoiding Wakefield. One would reverse at Leeds instead. However yes platform occupation would rise.
 

yorksrob

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VTEC are too busy providing what London wants them to provide, rather than what Yorkshire needs. Go on a Grand Central train to Bradford and you will find it packed because they offer the sort of fares that are attractive to residents.
 

backontrack

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York is due to get 3tph to London, the Middlesbrough service will allow 1tp2h to run non stop to Newcastle and on to Edinburgh in 4 hours. There will be an extra path from Kings Cross to Grantham/Newark every hour and the Harrogate service will be every other one of these (alternating with Lincoln IIRC).

Non stop from London?
 

3270

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Non stop from London?
Yes.
http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf...any-limited-application-form-p-section-17.pdf
This is the VTEC track access application from at least a year ago now. It has some nice diagrams at the end and some tables in the middle that describe VTEC's proposed timetable. (Assuming they get all the access rights that they need - the ORR is still deliberating about who gets what - due to the various Open Access operators that want paths as well.)
 

class26

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VTEC are too busy providing what London wants them to provide, rather than what Yorkshire needs. Go on a Grand Central train to Bradford and you will find it packed because they offer the sort of fares that are attractive to residents.

and Grand central do not have to pay premiums to the government. If all services did not it would most likely lead to less investment in the railway
 
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Firstly Branson has nothing to do with this, do you really think he micro manages every single detail in every company.

And secondly it is a simple fact, if the paths are given to open access operators VTEC can't run it's trains.

Branson is perfectly happy to give the impression he does ... ergo he can carry the can and adverse publicity for the wackier statements and utter bollocks talked in his name ...
 
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