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VTEC won't excess 'GC Only' ticket

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clagmonster

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VTWC TRAINS ONLY ('what does that mean?') ticket.
Virgin Trains West Coast. The routeing was changed from Virgin Trains only when Stagecoach and Virgin commenced operation of the East Coast franchise, presumably in case somebody came up with a use for such a ticket on an East Coast service.
 
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Haywain

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Virgin Trains West Coast. The routeing was changed from Virgin Trains only when Stagecoach and Virgin commenced operation of the East Coast franchise, presumably in case somebody came up with a use for such a ticket on an East Coast service.
Exactly correct as such routeings are also applied to tickets between London and Glasgow/Edinburgh, journey opportunities provided by both franchises.
 

maniacmartin

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It's a bit cryptic to joe public though. 'VIRGIN WESTCOAST' would fit and be much clearer
 

Stats

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Is that the name of a train company? If it is somebody had better tell them!
No, West Coast and Trains are the wrong way round. The name of the operating company is West Coast Trains Ltd, so Virgin West Coast Trains would be more apt. ;)
 

TUC

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It's a bit cryptic to joe public though. 'VIRGIN WESTCOAST' would fit and be much clearer

I think that most would understand it. It's no different to East Coast tickets being marked as 'VTEC'-and yes i'm aware of the formal brand name issues of the two different companies. However, most members of the public are not aware of, or care about, the formal names. It's actually more rail enthusiasts that have an issue (and even most of those understand perfectly well what the initials mean, but some choose to pretend not to understand.)
 

Solent&Wessex

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TOC Only tickets and the issue of privatisation often makes me giggle.

Ask many average joe bloggs on the street type person, and they will tell you there ought to be more competition as it so unfair that TOC X sets a fare from A to B, when TOC Y and TOC Z also operate that route, or that if there was competition and choice there would be lower fares.

And that is often the case, especially with Advance tickets or special offer promotions etc.

So in some cases there are TOC Only fares or promotions. Average Joe finds that the TOC Y fare is cheaper, so buys that. But then realises TOC Y only runs slow stopping trains whiich take longer, and he wants the quick train operated by TOC X.

So he gets on TOC X. Then the nasty ticket man tells him his TOC Y ONLY ticket is not valid and he needs to pay some more money.

And then Average Joe suddenly forgets that he wanted competition and cheaper fares. Suddenly it is so unfair and absolutely ridiculous that he can't use his TOC Y ticket on TOC X, and it was so much better under British Rail...

See it every day!
 

yorkie

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TOC Only tickets and the issue of privatisation often makes me giggle.

Ask many average joe bloggs on the street type person, and they will tell you there ought to be more competition as it so unfair that TOC X sets a fare from A to B, when TOC Y and TOC Z also operate that route, or that if there was competition and choice there would be lower fares.

And that is often the case, especially with Advance tickets or special offer promotions etc.

So in some cases there are TOC Only fares or promotions. Average Joe finds that the TOC Y fare is cheaper, so buys that. But then realises TOC Y only runs slow stopping trains whiich take longer, and he wants the quick train operated by TOC X.

So he gets on TOC X. Then the nasty ticket man tells him his TOC Y ONLY ticket is not valid and he needs to pay some more money.

And then Average Joe suddenly forgets that he wanted competition and cheaper fares. Suddenly it is so unfair and absolutely ridiculous that he can't use his TOC Y ticket on TOC X, and it was so much better under British Rail...

See it every day!
That is a fair point.

You are put in a difficult position and that's not really fair on you.

The solution, in my opinion, is to allow these fares to be excessed.

Yes, some people will still be unhappy at being asked to pay an excess fare, but tough. Most people will be reasonable and be content to pay the difference. The OP in this case was happy to pay an excess fare.

Revenue reallocation isn't a barrier to a London - Coventry via High Wycombe ticket being used on Virgin by paying a small excess, yet it is used as an excuse for a London - Coventry via LM Only fare being used on Virgin resulting in a brand new ticket, despite the fact Virgin receive no money from either fare. So it really isn't a good excuse at all.

I can understand the OP's frustration and I hope he is able to bring the matter to the attention of people in a position to do something about it. But I doubt anything will change.
 

furlong

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My only caution in arguing that it must be possible to excess TOC-only tickets to remove the TOC restriction (or alternatively that they must be fully-refundable without an admin fee when a replacement ticket is purchased) is that this will just push the train companies into sidelining these tickets, and relying on some alternative mechanism that achieves the same thing. Any solution needs to accept the underlying reasons why the tickets exist while also improving the poor experience for the passenger who realises they bought the wrong ticket.
 

reb0118

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The solution, in my opinion, is to allow these fares to be excessed......

I do not agree with this, but....

.........or alternatively that they must be fully-refundable without an admin fee when a replacement ticket is purchased.

..........I do agree with this.

In the first case there would be no incentive to buy the e.g. "ANY PERMITTED" fare rather than the cheaper "TOC ONLY" if the worse that can happen is that you are simply excessed to the correct fare. There should be a penalty for this but the penalty should not be punitive - having to request a refund, without the £10 admin. charge, on your original ticket would suffice in my opinion. That said I wouldn't object to a token £1 charge as a further reminder.

I came across a "VTEC ONLY" single from Edinburgh to Arbroath today - it saves you a whopping 90p versus the "ANY PERMITTED" ticket. Surely this can't be right?........
 

furlong

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I came across a "VTEC ONLY" single from Edinburgh to Arbroath today - it saves you a whopping 90p versus the "ANY PERMITTED" ticket. Surely this can't be right?........

I think it's called Game Theory.

I'm not convinced the market mechanisms are working very well at the moment, but big companies are quite capable of looking after themselves, and the question is whether the end result is better for the passenger or not.

Another example is Milton Keynes to London - see how it costs more to travel on London Midland in the peak (SDR 38.90) than on the faster (and surely more-desirable) Virgin trains (SDR 31.50)? That's not the outcome I'd have expected from a normal market!

Any students looking for a dissertation topic?
 

anme

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In the first case there would be no incentive to buy the e.g. "ANY PERMITTED" fare rather than the cheaper "TOC ONLY" if the worst that can happen is that you are simply excessed to the correct fare.

Why would this be a bad thing?
 

gnolife

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I think it's called Game Theory.

I'm not convinced the market mechanisms are working very well at the moment, but big companies are quite capable of looking after themselves, and the question is whether the end result is better for the passenger or not.

Another example is Milton Keynes to London - see how it costs more to travel on London Midland in the peak (SDR 38.90) than on the faster (and surely more-desirable) Virgin trains (SDR 31.50)? That's not the outcome I'd have expected from a normal market!

Any students looking for a dissertation topic?

It'll be because Virgin provide practically no southbound services from Milton Keynes in the peak.
 

yorkie

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It happens now with geographical route restricted tickets.

I know kwvr45 has previously posted about tickets routed via Hebden Bridge, among others.
 

47271

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I had the opposite once around ten or so years ago, albeit in a slightly different situation, and maybe it was less rigidly enforced then. I was travelling from York to Edinburgh amongst some minor disruption and on a GNER only ticket. A Virgin Cross Country train to Edinburgh pulled into the platform at the time my GNER train was due there and I absent mindedly got on it having forgotten about the ticket restriction. I realised what I'd done as soon as the train was pulling out.

When the guard came round I pointed out my error - I didn't wait for him to tell me, maybe that was what saved me. He said 'I've seen worse' and moved on!
 

wellwhatitis

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It's good that ScotRail and ScotRail guards have less punitive and more sensible policies for dealing with the potential problem.

You mightn't expect to receive the same concessions should you board a London Midland train from Milton Keynes to London with a route VTWC TRAINS ONLY ('what does that mean?') ticket.

Correct. And that is because 99% of passengers in LM land know exactly what they are doing when they purchase the VTWC only ticket based on the fact...

* It's considerably cheaper (due to there being less trains available.)
* they are taking the chance that they are unlikely to get their ticket checked on a train that the Guard probably can't get through.
* The ticket will get them through the barrier wherever they are alighting.

They are basically chancers and so deserve to be clobbered on the rare occasions they are tripped up. I used to catch the same people doing it day after day even after I had had a lengthy conversation with them the previous day or week about how they 'hadn't noticed' the ticket they had bought on that occasion.

They also clutter the trains up and prevent passengers boarding/getting a seat at the smaller stations that Virgin don't serve, and where the passengers are paying more than them to get left behind/wedged up against a toilet door because the train is full of Virgin's passengers.

The 'VTWC' change from 'Virgin Only' on the ticket has been a complete pain though as it makes it much more difficult to explain to the occasional genuine punter.

Beardy's 'fast ticket' cash gobblers are also very cleverly designed to offer the Virgin Only ticket before anything else. Probably an idea of Souter's I would imagine.

Euston to MK
Rugby to BHM
Rugby to Coventry (despite VT only having one an hour)
Coventry to BHM
BHI to BHM
Wolverhampton to BHM

I wonder how much money Beardy and Souter cream off those revenue streams without actually carrying the passengers?

It's an extremely cynical set up so don't blame LM on this one.
 
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reb0118

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In the first case there would be no incentive to buy the e.g. "ANY PERMITTED" fare rather than the cheaper "TOC ONLY" if the worse that can happen is that you are simply excessed to the correct fare.

Why would this be a bad thing?

I will base the following on the Edinburgh - Aberdeen route [ECN] and if we can take Cross Country out of the equation. ScotRail provide almost an hourly direct service for most of the day and if you add in the semi-fasts to Dundee with a change there to a Glasgow - Aberdeen there is almost two services an hour.

East Coast only provide about four trains a day but undercut our fares marginally with their "VTEC ONLY" fares. As these fares are cheaper, even by a few pounds, a small but significant portion of passengers already purchase these tickets, whether by accident or design, and travel on ScotRail services. This number would increase when word gets round that the worst that can happen on board is that all you have to do is pay the difference. These tickets work the barriers and multiple working, busy trains, & avantix failure, not to mention declined cards, would result in a significant portion of these tickets not being excessed.

Even if these tickets are excessed this does not result in revised revenue allocation but the final irony is that East Coast would receive a further share of the excess value on top of the bulk of the original ticket (ScotRail may receive an agents fee if they retailed it, however).
 

Starmill

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No, West Coast and Trains are the wrong way round. The name of the operating company is West Coast Trains Ltd, so Virgin West Coast Trains would be more apt. ;)

I would agree that WCTL ONLY is appropriate!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Any students looking for a dissertation topic?

Having looked into it:

1. This isn't the sort of game theory you want in a service that's the most efficient and lest environmentally damaging transport mode your country can really hope for. The data suggests that Active Modes aside, it's buses and trains, reasonable - everything else, varying extremities of awful. It should be government policy to incentivise use of the former two in all situations over road or air and in all aspects of transport demand. Keeping in mind that it, well, isn't:

2. It's almost impossible to get these companies to tell you anything! There are a whole load of relatively unexplored topics regarding State Enterpirses and efficiency, transport market competition and elasticity, and really relevant things related to passenger benefits from varying market structures. Chances are you won't get your hands on anything like the data necessary to go into it in enough detail - and who will be willing to talk to you?
 

PermitToTravel

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I would agree that WCTL ONLY is appropriate!

It'll be LER ONLY all over again. Nobody will understand it, unlike the current one which a few people might understand

"VIRGIN ONLY (WC)" will fit, and might be better comprehended
 
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PermitToTravel

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Perhaps VTWC TRAINS ONLY could be kept for journeys that could be made on EC or WC (isn't this only two journeys anyway, London to Edinburgh and London to Glasgow?) and VIRGIN TRNS ONLY used for any unambiguous journeys like Milton Keynes to London. Another alternative might be using the latter for all VT only tickets, but issuing tickets from Glasgow or Edinburgh to a specific London terminal rather than London Terminals
 

hairyhandedfool

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They should just go back to "VWC Only" and similar.

It's a bit cryptic to joe public though. 'VIRGIN WESTCOAST' would fit and be much clearer

The text would have to include the word "Only" as the ticket is not valid on other train company's services.

Is that the name of a train company? If it is somebody had better tell them!....

Ah now I do recall bringing up a point about trading names being used on tickets a fair while ago, though it was about train services that may or may not call at Gatwick Airport. I best leave that one alone for now......

....

..... (or alternatively that they must be fully-refundable without an admin fee when a replacement ticket is purchased).....

......I do agree with this......

Aside from the issue of who issued what and who can refund what, there is the minor point that some tickets are not refundable, and whilst I'm sure many people might be able to grasp the difference, many will try to turn the situation round at a later date with arguments such as "but they gave me a refund last time!", and that is not a discussion that I am comfortable with.

I would agree that WCTL ONLY is appropriate!

Take a random member of the public to the departure board at London Euston and point out to them a train which is operated by West Coast Trains Limited. Go to the platforms and point out a the West Coast Trains Limited service to them. Then explain to them why WCTL is appropriate when everything you have shown them says Virgin Trains.....
 

Bletchleyite

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There can't be *many* journeys for which there would be any confusion caused by just having "Virgin Trains Only" on the tickets - there is very little crossover between the two routes.
 

yorkie

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There can't be *many* journeys for which there would be any confusion caused by just having "Virgin Trains Only" on the tickets - there is very little crossover between the two routes.
Absolutely. And unless you had two trains timed to depart from Edinburgh or Glasgow at exactly the same times, there would be no doubt which train the passenger was booked on.
 

ainsworth74

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Absolutely. And unless you had two trains timed to depart from Edinburgh or Glasgow at exactly the same times, there would be no doubt which train the passenger was booked on.

But that does happen. I've seen East Coast and West Coast services departing Edinburgh from the same platform island within ten minutes of each other Edinburgh!
 

yorkie

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But that does happen. I've seen East Coast and West Coast services departing Edinburgh from the same platform island within ten minutes of each other Edinburgh!
If they are within 10 minutes of each other this is surely no different to trains out of King's Cross or Euston at peak times going to the same destinations within a few minutes of each other by the same TOC.
 

clagmonster

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* The ticket will get them through the barrier wherever they are alighting.
Would it be possible to set the automatic barriers at Euston to decline said tickets? If so, anybody using one could be directed to a waiting RPI and either given an explanation of the ticket restriction and warned, or reported and prosecuted for any subsequent offence.
 

PermitToTravel

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Fast LM trains arrive at unbarriered platforms. The trains arriving at the barriered platforms are never faster than Virgin trains, and would only carry people making mistakes rather than people taking a quicker train than their ticket allows
 

clagmonster

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In which case, modify the question slightly. Is there ever a barrier grip at Euston which could pick this up?
 
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