VTWC & Connections - Blackpool

[Sheepy1209]

This post is a little academic for the next few months but I'm just trying to clear up the situation re 'VTWC & Connections' tickets from Blackpool North.

I regularly travel from BPN for work, and often get an advance to Euston, Birmingham New Street or Glasgow Central. I'd always understood that I had to get the specific VTWC train but the 'Connections' bit was by any operator on any reasonable service.

Because of some problems with trains being cancelled in the past I've been in the habit of getting a train BEFORE the one on my itinerary, to be sure of getting to Preston in time for my booked train. It's never been a problem.

This week, though, the Guard made a point of checking my reservations and I was told that my ticket wasn't valid and I could be charged the full fare. To be honest I felt like I was being accused of pulling a fast one but that's beside the point, I was allowed to travel without being charged for another ticket so I'm not complaining.

I was a bit surprised by this, but on reading a few threads here it looks like it's something to do with a service being 'reservable', and I assume that's only just become an issue since Northern started doing Advance fares.

I'm not one to push my luck, I find it humiliating, so I want to be sure I'm using a valid ticket in future - but can anyone explain a few things?

1 - If this situation has come about because Northern now do Advance fares, how can that be relevant given that there are no Advances available between BPN and PRE (according to BRFARES)?
2 - I was on a BPN - YRK service (08:11) and I know Advances are sold on that route, but I had a 'reservation' on the 08:40 Airport service. Could I have travelled on the 08:21 Huddersfield, which I assume isn't reservable?
3 - My employer's rail ticket provider system is in the habit of spitting out coupons for every leg of an itinerary, regardless of whether it's reservable or not - how am I supposed to work out which ones are mandatory? (They all say 'not valid without rail ticket .... ').
4 - As all services from BPN to PRE are run by Northern, and none of them are full even at peak time, does it not seem a bit petty to enforce this restriction? Can I expect all Guards to be this rigorous? (I've done this plenty of times over the last few months without a problem, not even realising I was breaking the rules)
5 - On the way home I often get off at Poulton if my wife's picking me up, can I now expect to be told that's not allowed either? Even though it's exactly the same fare?

It's not going to be an issue for a while and I'll try a few options to see if I can stop this happening - but the experience left a bit of a sour taste, especially as the Guard made a point of announcing as we arrived in Preston that customers are 'reminded' re Advance tickets.

The whole thing feels like a technicality that's been introduced as an unintended side-effect of the new Advance fares, which benefits nobody - I could be completely wrong, maybe I wasn't supposed to get an earlier train in the past, I just want to be sure where I stand!

 

[Starmill]

1 - If this situation has come about because Northern now do Advance fares, how can that be relevant given that there are no Advances available between BPN and PRE (according to BRFARES)?

Because Advance tickets are available for other journeys (such as Blackpool North to Wigan NW, or Blackpool North to Leeds).

2 - I was on a BPN - YRK service (08:11) and I know Advances are sold on that route, but I had a 'reservation' on the 08:40 Airport service. Could I have travelled on the 08:21 Huddersfield, which I assume isn't reservable?

In the case of an Advance ticket, if you have a reservation, you must travel on the reserved train.

3 - My employer's rail ticket provider system is in the habit of spitting out coupons for every leg of an itinerary, regardless of whether it's reservable or not - how am I supposed to work out which ones are mandatory? (They all say 'not valid without rail ticket .... ').

This doesn't sound possible to me - do you have any examples where you might be allowed to upload a photograph?

However, in general terms, Mandatory Reservation Coupons print out with that text in the bottom right, followed by the numbers 'X of Y'. They also have 'Retain for Inspection' printed in the top right, although formatting may vary!

4 - As all services from BPN to PRE are run by Northern, and none of them are full even at peak time, does it not seem a bit petty to enforce this restriction? Can I expect all Guards to be this rigorous? (I've done this plenty of times over the last few months without a problem, not even realising I was breaking the rules)

Not quite - there is one Virgin Trains service per day. Guards being 'rigorous' is a slightly nebulous concept unfortunately and it's difficult to advise directly on it. What I would say is that I would expect most Northern guards on this route to be reasonable (TransPennine Express* and Virgin Trains crew do work on this route) - and it sounds like what you experienced was reasonableness to me.

5 - On the way home I often get off at Poulton if my wife's picking me up, can I now expect to be told that's not allowed either? Even though it's exactly the same fare?

If you have an Advance ticket to someowhere that isn't Poulton-le-Fylde then strictly speaking yes this is not permitted. It's thought to be railway industry policy not to levy a charge in cases where there was no attempt to avoid a fare but this does not make it permitted. Make of that what you will.

It's not going to be an issue for a while and I'll try a few options to see if I can stop this happening - but the experience left a bit of a sour taste, especially as the Guard made a point of announcing as we arrived in Preston that customers are 'reminded' re Advance tickets.

What the guard will have been asked to do by their manager is ensure that all customers are travelling on Advance tickets are on the correct train, and to charge the appropriate fare for a new ticket in cases where customers are travelling on different trains. These instructions will be vis a vis AP NORTHERN ONLY tickets, which they promote strongly. Most of these will be sold for journeys like Blackpool North to Manchester Stations or Manchester Airport, on direct trains. It's exceedingly unlikely that they have considered your particular case.

If you are concerned about reliability here are my suggestions:

- If you already have the tickets, when you arrive at Blackpool North speak to the ticket office. Show them the tickets and say you need to be on xxxx train from Preston to London Euston. Perhaps ask if there are any service updates and ask for advice. They may well advise you to board whichever the first available train to Preston is at that time. If they do, consider that authorisation to travel on the earlier service.
- If this isn't helpful, you can also try speaking to the guard on the platform of whichever the first train departing is. Explain that you're going to London and you have an Advance ticket, perhaps you could mention that you're concerned about connection time at Preston. You will more than likely be invited to board the train, even if it is not the one you have reserved.
- If you can get some input into the booking process, try to ensure that the train from Blackpool North is non-reservable.

The whole thing feels like a technicality that's been introduced as an unintended side-effect of the new Advance fares, which benefits nobody - I could be completely wrong, maybe I wasn't supposed to get an earlier train in the past

I would definitely agree that it is an unintended consequence yes. You're not "supposed" to get an earlier train, but that does not mean it won't be reasonable to sometimes, and that you won't accordingly be given permission to travel on an earlier train. Permission under these circumstances is very likely to be granted - if it is declined you are at no loss, simply wait for the next train.

I just want to be sure where I stand!

Was this a deliberate choice of words?

* The situation with TransPennine train crew is somewhat complicated, some Blackpool crews transferred over to employment with Northern and some crew from other TransPennine depots still work 'on hire' to Northern. It's... difficult to make generalisations in these cases.

 

[yorkie]

...The whole thing feels like a technicality that's been introduced as an unintended side-effect of the new Advance fares, which benefits nobody - I could be completely wrong, maybe I wasn't supposed to get an earlier train in the past...

In the past there was no doubt you were able to take any "appropriate" connecting train.

I suggest you ask Northern for their policy on this, and let us know what they say.

Is your arrival time into London really critical? What time would the next train from Preston get you into London? If it is 30+ minutes later, Northern would be well advised to allow you to take an earlier train, because you are actually doing Northern a favour by reducing their Delay Repay liabilities, in case the suggested connecting train is late or cancelled causing you to miss your booked service from Preston to London.

 

[Sheepy1209]

Thanks for your really detailed and helpful replies - I was worried that my post would come over as a rant, and I suppose it is, but my frustration is really with the booking system that forces this leg of the journey to be reserved and makes it hard to reserve anything else. Now I'm better informed I can write to Northern and see what they say, though to be honest I can't see what they can do any different other than instructing their staff to be flexible - and I can hardly expect them to put that in writing, nor can I expect Guards to be consistent about it when they have enough complexity to deal with.

I do regularly travel to Leeds, and will often get an Advance via Burnley (once I've persuaded the booking tool to give me that route without making me get off there, wait an hour and board the next one......) - in that case I would of course not even consider using a different train for any part of the journey.

You'll see the common factor here is the booking process - it's a corporate one that has some quirks which I've raised already. Being expected to disembark at a 'Via' station that I'm just using for routeing purposes is probably costing my employer thousands, as staff go Blackpool - Manchester - Leeds instead of direct because it's often slightly quicker! But that's another story...

 

[Deafdoggie]

I travelled from Blackpool North on an advance in the summer. Connection at Preston was minimum allowed (you can, of course, ask for a longer connection time which I will do in future) whilst waiting at Blackpool, the inbound train forming my train was late, so I quickly jumped on the one before. The guard did query it, but I explained as mine was late, I wanted to make the connection, ( I had a further connection at Crewe) so got this one instead. He wasn't too happy about it, but did allow it. I'm not bothered if they allow it happily or grumpily, just so long as they allow it! I put it down to the platform staff attitude at Blackpool rubbing off on train crew!

 

[Starmill]

This is why I reccomend speaking to the station staff. If they give you permission, nobody can be grumpy with you. If they refuse permission, you can complain about that, with your compensation claim for the resulting delay as evidence that they acted in an anti-customer manner.

 

[dizzie]

Whilst it's 'academic' seeing as it's bus replacement services from now until March, and there aren't reservable services, it's worth noting that there has been nothing short of complete chaos with the bus schedules so far, since they started the buses between BPN and PRE. They timetabled a 65 minute journey, stopping at the other stations, and a 50 minute journey direct between the two main stations. Reports so far are that many of the buses are taking 80+ minutes, especially during rush hour traffic, with people missing connections if they take the recommended buses.

As a result, they've basically said (through the local press) that any ticket is permissible on any bus replacement service to Preston. The situation is compounded by a vast array of traffic-snarling roadworks all around Blackpool - causing long delays on Talbot Road, near the station, as well as massive issues with the bridge closures in South Shore. On top of that, the M55 is closing in sections, overnight on certain days, for the next few weeks. Oh, and don't forget the anti-frackers, blocking Preston New Road on a near daily basis, and causing traffic often to be rerouted extensively around that issue!

Basically, leave early, expect delays, and try and get the buses that go direct from Blackpool to Preston, rather than the stopping services. The fact that a ~25 minute train journey is sometimes taking more that 1h 20 mins on the bus, should mean factoring in at least an extra hour onto anyone's journey. I am absolutely sure that no guards will be policing anyone's tickets with the same zeal for the next few months!

 

[Romilly]

Once the bus replacements have ended then, even if all the "connecting" trains are reservable, there are ways of booking yourself onto an earlier connecting train than the one given as a default (although you do then have to use that earlier connecting train). Essentially, you need to the use the option on the journey planner to increase interchange time. This is available on National Rail Enquiries in the Advanced Options, although you are then dependent on the itineraries that NRE produces not being changed when you click through to a booking site. Alternatively, on a site that uses the WEBTIS mixing deck (e.g. C2C or, for now, gwr.tickets.com - to get this avoid the usual GWR front page), click on the "text only" option (usually at the top of the page) and as you work through the options you will eventually get to the extra interchange time one. Or use new.trainsplit.com which has very detailed advanced options (and may even give you a saving from splitting your tickets as well), or use the advanced options on Raileasy.co.uk, or "outbound stopover duration" in "more options" on loco2.com

 

[Sheepy1209]

I'll extend connection times in future, it just wasn't necessary until now and I admit I resented the way I was spoken to when I'd not done anything different and didn't realise there was an issue - thankfully I kept my tongue in check but I'm sure plenty wouldn't.

The problem with the connection time option of course is that it applies to the whole journey, though if I'm doing multiple changes I'm also likely to be in the realms of split ticketing anyway so probably wouldn't notice the issue.

Finally - I have to use a corporate rail booking service which is not the most robust or logical - the example I gave earlier of it forcing a change of train at Burnley when all I want is to use the route is one that I have to work round - and it makes it difficult to book certain through advances on the Blackpool - York route. I can't access it at the moment to check the connection times options, but I have a feeling it's just a box to 'allow extra time' meaning I can't control how much time I have. I'd love to just buy a flexible ticket but my employer insists on buying Advances for the outward trip where available.