W Driver Only Operated Trains (DOO) discussion

[455driver]

That's a pretty accurate summing up of things ,publicly the RMT express perfectly genuine safety concerns like drivers having to cope with incidents alone especially in the likes of rural Devon, Cornwall or Somerset and quite understandability concessions were made , however instead of moving forward a hard line minority is only interested in trying to engineer this dispute to the same goal they achieved with SWT in 1998 where they scrapped all plans for an easier life with their unions

What the eff does 'understandability' mean?
And what sort of percentage are you talking about here?

Jeez you are as bad as bignosemax! :roll:

 

[ComUtoR]

But having DOO doesn't necessarily mean that there isn't any passenger and staff interaction; the Strathclyde model being an example.

I am the only person on board my train. DOO to me means just that. There is almost zero interaction between Driver and passenger. I do not like the way my passengers are treated whatsoever at times but I am very limited in what I can and can't do. I had an old guy on a platform the other day waiting for a train that will never arrive. Only because I was helpful did he get on my train. He didn't get off at his destination either. There was no one to help him.

I do not want or support any move towards that kind of operation. The old lady linked the other day who broke her wrist is another example of why I will support Guards on the train. I see so many examples of where a Guard would have been helpful. Some day it is literally just me a 500+ people on my train. DOO to me is just that. Driver ONLY Operation.

I'm unaware of the Strathclyde model so feel free to fill me in.

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm unaware of the Strathclyde model so feel free to fill me in.

On the Glasgow suburban network the services run with a driver who is responsible for opening and closing the doors. All trains are also diagrammed with a Ticket Examiner to check tickets and provide customer service. A train can run without a TE but Scotrail are fined for every service which does so to ensure that they don't try and remove the TEs by stealth.

Outside of Strathclyde (so on their rural, long distance and inter-city routes) Scotrail use traditional Driver/Guard operation.

It's a mode of operation I believe should be brought in to places like the Thames Valley on Turbo services where trains currently run with only a driver as I feel it would be a huge improvement on what is there currently.

 

[BestWestern]

What happens when its a 10 coach platform (so no ASDO beacons) but the driver stops at the 5 car mark with a 9 or 10 coach train and hits the open buttons? If there was a guard on board he would notice it and not release the doors so no real problem.

To clarify; I refer only to situation where appropriate technology is in use, tried and tested, which prevents both wrong side releases and off the platform releases (thinking S Stock etc?). If it remains possible to cock it up, then I fully agree that a Guard doing it, with local door procedure, is far more appropriate.
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That's a pretty accurate summing up of things ,publicly the RMT express perfectly genuine safety concerns like drivers having to cope with incidents alone especially in the likes of rural Devon, Cornwall or Somerset and quite understandability concessions were made , however instead of moving forward a hard line minority is only interested in trying to engineer this dispute to the same goal they achieved with SWT in 1998 where they scrapped all plans for an easier life with their unions

You make no sense at all. The safety concerns are 'perfectly genuine', but the members are actually all sneaking about trying to engineer something completely different...

Would you care to qualify your conspiracy with at least some vague attempt at an explanation?! :roll:

 

[Carlisle]

You make no sense at all. The safety concerns are 'perfectly genuine', but the members are actually all sneaking about trying to engineer something completely different...

Would you care to qualify your conspiracy with at least some vague attempt at an explanation?! :roll:

I made no accusations whatsoever that the members on the ground are sneaking about or doing anything underhand I'm simply saying if there's a hardline leadership still wishing to pursue this dispute long into the future they would do well to realise that just because Stagecoach /SWT chose to back down so quickly under Union pressure from all their DOO//DCO plans in 1998 and have never wanted to challenge unions since over this (as illustrated with VTEC) doesn't mean that all future DOO/DCD schemes can simply be defeated by persistent industrial action or the threat of it. Weather the RMT like it or not DOO/DCO is now used quite extensively in a fair number of countries worldwide with very few problems so isn't going to be abolished anytime soon

 

[LowLevel]

On the Glasgow suburban network the services run with a driver who is responsible for opening and closing the doors. All trains are also diagrammed with a Ticket Examiner to check tickets and provide customer service. A train can run without a TE but Scotrail are fined for every service which does so to ensure that they don't try and remove the TEs by stealth.

Outside of Strathclyde (so on their rural, long distance and inter-city routes) Scotrail use traditional Driver/Guard operation.

It's a mode of operation I believe should be brought in to places like the Thames Valley on Turbo services where trains currently run with only a driver as I feel it would be a huge improvement on what is there currently.

I don't believe they're fined for every service that goes without a TE. They're fined if one of the inspectors manages to make a journey without having to pay, as far as I recall. The fine is however pretty significant for each occurrence (5 figures?) as a deterrent.

 

[Goldfish62]

SWT desiros are being fitted with the second option, the kit is under the leading cab and when it passes over the beacon in the four foot, it will tell the desiro tms how many coaches can open. You've outlined what could happen in a stop short. If the becon fails to be read correctly, it will turn to default mode, where 4 coaches on a 450 and 3 coaches on a 444 will open regardless of platform length.

I think the whole point is that while the SWT system is imperfect, it would be absurd to suggest that the technology doesn't exist to prevent incorrect door release in all situations. After all, some part of this technology has existed on LUL since the 1992 stock was introduced. And then of course there's the DLR, plus the Class 700 where the doors will be released in the central area without human intervention.

To put things in perspective, on SWT last year I saw a guard release the doors when a train had overshot the platform by one carriage because where he was positioned in the middle of the train it wasn't obvious that it had overshot.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think the whole point is that while the SWT system is imperfect, it would be absurd to suggest that the technology doesn't exist to prevent incorrect door release in all situations. After all, some part of this technology has existed on LUL since the 1992 stock was introduced.

The problem with the railway is that it is highly constrained with the infrastructure. There isn't a single fit for every TOC. I think the move towards beacons is partially because it is more universal than other options. The easiest and certainly cheapest option that is oft touted by Drivers on our TOC is always dismissed out of had by management

 

[Carlisle]

What the eff does 'understandability' mean?:

It means agreeing to to have a qualified second member of staff on board whilst in passenger service as I believe they have done

 

[swt_passenger]

One more question, who is supposed to make all the announcements about which coaches will have their doors released at the next station?

The 444 or 450 PIS already deals with unit de-select announcements, (although the guards often do it all instead) so wouldn't you expect the PIS to be altered to deal with ASDO announcements?

On the subject of 'stop shorts' with carriage level ASDO, how many years have Southern's 377s been operating such a system, and is there a significant issue with stop shorts on that network? Presumably if there was, it would be widely known about?

 

[Monty]

The 444 or 450 PIS already deals with unit de-select announcements, (although the guards often do it all instead) so wouldn't you expect the PIS to be altered to deal with ASDO announcements?

On the subject of 'stop shorts' with carriage level ASDO, how many years have Southern's 377s been operating such a system, and is there a significant issue with stop shorts on that network? Presumably if there was, it would be widely known about?

Southern's system is significantly different and uses GPS, issues with it are not unknown.

 

[tsr]

Southern's system is significantly different and uses GPS, issues with it are not unknown.

377s have drivers releasing doors selected by a beacon and GPS based system, and preselected routes are loaded onto the PIS which update according to location or (worst case scenario) various manual triggers.
171s have guards releasing doors, with door deselect on a coach-by-coach basis per short platform, with PIS again controlled by database entries and location data. Door control is nothing to do with GPS. Some of the PIS software is also related to door controls but this is on a software update basis (not widely understood...!).
455s have guards/drivers releasing doors as appropriate, and each door can be manually locked out per short platform (which is such a faff that it's almost never done anymore). PIS is purely GPS based.
Etc. etc. Each system has subtle or not so subtle differences per each class of stock and each has its advantages and disadvantages.

 

[bnm]

Driver with guard controlling doors is safer is a constant theme in this thread. Not always the case though.

This morning I was on a service which stopped short at one station. Guard released doors from an intermediate panel obviously not realising. Rear doors off platform. Different rolling stock this morning than is the norm, but not uncommon substitute. Luckily the person alighting was on the ball, leaned out and shouted down the platform. Could easily have been nasty injuries had someone stepped off.

Is this something that will be reported by the staff concerned? Should I report it?

 

[A-driver]

Driver with guard controlling doors is safer is a constant theme in this thread. Not always the case though.



This morning I was on a service which stopped short at one station. Guard released doors from an intermediate panel obviously not realising. Rear doors off platform. Different rolling stock this morning than is the norm, but not uncommon substitute. Luckily the person alighting was on the ball, leaned out and shouted down the platform. Could easily have been nasty injuries had someone stepped off.



Is this something that will be reported by the staff concerned? Should I report it?

First of all it will definitely have been reported as no me never of staff would be stupid enough in this day and age to try to get away with anything like that.

You can come out with individual situations but it dosnt prove anything is safer or more dangerous.

 

[455driver]

The 444 or 450 PIS already deals with unit de-select announcements, (although the guards often do it all instead) so wouldn't you expect the PIS to be altered to deal with ASDO announcements?

On the subject of 'stop shorts' with carriage level ASDO, how many years have Southern's 377s been operating such a system, and is there a significant issue with stop shorts on that network? Presumably if there was, it would be widely known about?

The SWT Desiro unit deselect announcements only happen when the guard turns the deselect switch in the cab, it doesn't happen automatically.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Moving on from the squabbling, the RAIB are now investigating an incident on 25 July at Hayes and Harlington where a passenger was dragged along the platform by her wrist after becoming trapped in the door. The train involved was a DOO turbo.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/passenger-accident-at-hayes-and-harlington-station

 

[OxtedL]

So what sort of signal does it send to the train?

Is it to each carriage as it passes over it that it can open its doors or is it just a signal to the leading coach telling the train how many coaches can be opened?

SWT desiros are being fitted with the second option, the kit is under the leading cab and when it passes over the beacon in the four foot, it will tell the desiro tms how many coaches can open.

I know this is a couple of days old now and probably pushing a bit of a tangent, but... The best information I can find about how the SWT beacons work is given in this article, which I linked to a while ago in post 256(!) of the thread:

Those wondering about beacons, I think this is worth a peruse:
http://www.railengineer.uk/2013/04/12/being-selective/

The article says that the beacons inform the train of the length of the platforms. I had imagined that the train would/could measure how far it travelled past the beacon which would be an additional failsafe. It looks like from some of the above discussion that desiros might not be able to do this at the moment. If this is right, is this because it is impractical as a method or just impractical with the current trains?

 

[BestWestern]

Driver with guard controlling doors is safer is a constant theme in this thread. Not always the case though.

This morning I was on a service which stopped short at one station. Guard released doors from an intermediate panel obviously not realising. Rear doors off platform. Different rolling stock this morning than is the norm, but not uncommon substitute. Luckily the person alighting was on the ball, leaned out and shouted down the platform. Could easily have been nasty injuries had someone stepped off.

Is this something that will be reported by the staff concerned? Should I report it?

Much of the follow-on from this has been deleted, probably wisely; but to pick up on one of the very valid points made - the same would have occurred had the Driver released the doors, as clearly he is responsible for stopping short in the first place.

A point that needs to remain in the discussion. I shall say no more on the matter.

 

[387star]

FGW originally said SETS could run with no TM during disruption and later seemed to amend this to only in the existing DOO area ie not beyond Oxford... am I right they are now saying NO SETS will run DOO at any time in any area?


Out of interest what area of the UK rail network are DOO?


I have:

ScotRail Glasgow suburban (with an ATE provided)
The whole of C2C (became DOO during privatization circa 2000)
Thameslink and Great Northern
Chiltern Railways south of Banbury
First Great Western majority of Thames Valley except Gatwick-Reading, Marlow Branch, Reading to Basingstoke, Oxford to Worcester
Abellio Greater Anglia- the whole of the West Anglia side including Stansted Express and most if not all of the Great Eastern side though I hear of guards on some longer trains to Clacton etc?
Southern metro
Southeastern metro- some trains have a guard on but the train runs in DOO mode for part of the journey, Southeastern High Speed which has an On Board Manager
Gatwick Express
Heathrow Express
The whole of London Overground (the whole operation became DOO during privatization circa 2013)


Think that is all!

 

[NX]

latest rumours suggests, which could make sense....


Class 16X units which will remain in LTV land will be fitted with body side camera a and in cab screens.

Class 16X units destine for West land will have cab controls removed and Guard operating panels installed.

NX

 

[PHILIPE]

FGW originally said SETS could run with no TM during disruption and later seemed to amend this to only in the existing DOO area ie not beyond Oxford... am I right they are now saying NO SETS will run DOO at any time in any area?


Out of interest what area of the UK rail network are DOO?


I have:

ScotRail Glasgow suburban (with an ATE provided)
The whole of C2C (became DOO during privatization circa 2000)
Thameslink and Great Northern
Chiltern Railways south of Banbury
First Great Western majority of Thames Valley except Gatwick-Reading, Marlow Branch, Reading to Basingstoke, Oxford to Worcester
Abellio Greater Anglia- the whole of the West Anglia side including Stansted Express and most if not all of the Great Eastern side though I hear of guards on some longer trains to Clacton etc?
Southern metro
Southeastern metro- some trains have a guard on but the train runs in DOO mode for part of the journey, Southeastern High Speed which has an On Board Manager
Gatwick Express
Heathrow Express
The whole of London Overground (the whole operation became DOO during privatization circa 2013)


Think that is all!

Glasgow to Edinburgh via Airdrie and Bathgate

 

[Carlisle]

latest rumours suggests, which could make sense....


Class 16X units which will remain in LTV land will be fitted with body side camera a and in cab screens.

Class 16X units destine for West land will have cab controls removed and Guard operating panels installed.

NX

By all means campaign for a properly qualified second member of staff to be present on most or all trains on decent T&Cs , but reading the current RMT news where they are now campaigning for merseyrail guards on what will be brand new metro trains to be employed in what amounts to totally identical roles to their current ones sounds a bit old fashioned in this day and age

 

[NX]

The RMT and every other union are duty bound to campaign for identical terms and employment.

I'd suspect in the need the Merseyrail guards will become revenue and operations at best like the rest of us.

In 2015 operations only guards are on a hiding to noting I'm afraid.

NX

 

[Sleepy]

FGW originally said SETS could run with no TM during disruption and later seemed to amend this to only in the existing DOO area ie not beyond Oxford... am I right they are now saying NO SETS will run DOO at any time in any area?


Out of interest what area of the UK rail network are DOO?


I have:

ScotRail Glasgow suburban (with an ATE provided)
The whole of C2C (became DOO during privatization circa 2000)
Thameslink and Great Northern
Chiltern Railways south of Banbury
First Great Western majority of Thames Valley except Gatwick-Reading, Marlow Branch, Reading to Basingstoke, Oxford to Worcester
Abellio Greater Anglia- the whole of the West Anglia side including Stansted Express and most if not all of the Great Eastern side though I hear of guards on some longer trains to Clacton etc?
Southern metro
Southeastern metro- some trains have a guard on but the train runs in DOO mode for part of the journey, Southeastern High Speed which has an On Board Manager
Gatwick Express
Heathrow Express
The whole of London Overground (the whole operation became DOO during privatization circa 2013)


Think that is all!

C2C still have guards on 12 car working. AGA north of Colchester have guards on all Clacton/Walton services, all 12 car EMU to Ipswich (also Braintree line) all DMU workings in Norfolk and Suffolk and Sudbury branch. All loco hauled working from Liverpool St. to Norwich. Wickford to Southminster 12 cars are worked by guards (they undertake commercial duties only at other times).

 

[ainsworth74]

C2C still have guards on 12 car working.

Isn't that finishing in the next few months?

 

[Sleepy]

Isn't that finishing in the next few months?

So I have heard recently.

 

[387star]

Isn't that finishing in the next few months?

So when they are not guards what is their job role?

 

[Goldfish62]

The RMT and every other union are duty bound to campaign for identical terms and employment.

I'd suspect in the need the Merseyrail guards will become revenue and operations at best like the rest of us.

In 2015 operations only guards are on a hiding to noting I'm afraid.

NX

Completely agree re what the unions are there for. That's why I pay my subs to Unite!

I do tend to agree that operations guards appear to be most vulnerable. The most extreme example of this must be on SWT where so many non commercial guards do everything they can to avoid any sort of contact with passengers, including locking out the inter-unit gangway on Desiros so there's no way you can approach the guard in between stations.

 

[thelongestroad]

latest rumours suggests, which could make sense....


Class 16X units which will remain in LTV land will be fitted with body side camera a and in cab screens.

Class 16X units destine for West land will have cab controls removed and Guard operating panels installed.

NX

Sorry, but that sounds like made up optimistic bollocks!

The current offer to the RMT is for the driver to control the doors on Turbos in the west area but with a safety critical guard onboard... for now.

 

[BestWestern]

Sorry, but that sounds like made up optimistic bollocks!

The current offer to the RMT is for the driver to control the doors on Turbos in the west area but with a safety critical guard onboard... for now.

Latest rumour however suggesting that Aslef have now laid their cards on the table... And the news allegedly is good, currently...