W.O.E loco hauled era(NSE)

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4REP

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I'm trying to find out how many locos and rakes of coaching stock were required to run the service before 159s were introduced. Class 33/47/50s were mainly used with mark 2/and even some TC stock were used. 22 159s were introduced so half that number possible?
Does anyone know?
 
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HamworthyGoods

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I'm trying to find out how many locos and rakes of coaching stock were required to run the service before 159s were introduced. Class 33/47/50s were mainly used with mark 2/and even some TC stock were used. 22 159s were introduced so half that number possible?
Does anyone know?

There were 11 loco hauled diagrams on the West of England around 1991 before the cuts came in on the Salisbury’s and they went over to Reading/Salisbury DEMUs
 

MatthewRead

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The 159's officially entered service on 10th June 1993 and the last loco hauled sets ran exactly one month later.
 

47827

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By the final 18 months or so there were only really meant to be 47s booked but 50s plus sometimes 33s and 37s were not remotely unknown as the crews still had familiarity. I'm sure an odd 73 may have made it on diesel to Salisbury too but I'm a bit sketchy on that one. There were only a small handful of sets involved by the end in July 1993 (when 159s had already taken over several circuits) so there were less overall unusual workings but owing to a few managers involved in the route who were enthusiasts some creative workings, often referred to as "fixing" at the time, still occurred until near the end (with not all so called failures being all that serious). The release of 47s off the Paddington-Oxford/Banbury/Newbury circuits between 1991-92 had ultimately released enough locos to eliminate booked turns for the likes of 50s or 33s in the latter period though. Whilst there was a monopoly of former Scottish 47/7s on hand parcels, Intercity and Railfreight sector 47s all turned up (including ones without eth capability).
 
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There were 11 loco hauled diagrams on the West of England around 1991 before the cuts came in on the Salisbury’s and they went over to Reading/Salisbury DEMUs
Just out of curiosity, how many daily West of England line diagrams are there in normal times these days ie. before Covid-19. Has the far more than the 1980's.

For anyone interested, there is an extremely detailed right up that can be found here that discusses timing, disgrams, fuel consumption, stock allocation as well as other things.
 

Gloster

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Coaching stock diagrams would probably be one less than loco ones as they worked a turnover engine system at Waterloo. For example: in 1980 the 06.26 Exeter arrived in Platform 9 at 09.49 and the coaches formed the 11.10 to Exeter. The 07.37 Exeter arrived in Platform 11 at 11.10 and the coaches formed the 13.10. And so on. The loco that had brought in the train from Exeter remained on the buffers until the coaches had gone and then - usually - went to the sidings to await the next incoming train, which it would drop on to the country end of and haul the coaches back to Exeter. The loco that had brought in the 06.26 would go back to Devon at the head of the 13.10. (From around January 1980 to the start of the new timetable this 06.26 Exeter/13.10 Waterloo diagram was worked by a Class 50 for training purposes.)
 

Cowley

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Coaching stock diagrams would probably be one less than loco ones as they worked a turnover engine system at Waterloo. For example: in 1980 the 06.26 Exeter arrived in Platform 9 at 09.49 and the coaches formed the 11.10 to Exeter. The 07.37 Exeter arrived in Platform 11 at 11.10 and the coaches formed the 13.10. And so on. The loco that had brought in the train from Exeter remained on the buffers until the coaches had gone and then - usually - went to the sidings to await the next incoming train, which it would drop on to the country end of and haul the coaches back to Exeter. The loco that had brought in the 06.26 would go back to Devon at the head of the 13.10. (From around January 1980 to the start of the new timetable this 06.26 Exeter/13.10 Waterloo diagram was worked by a Class 50 for training purposes.)

In the latter half of the 1980s I remember there being an ecs at the end of each day which took a full set down to Laira for maintenance and then a corresponding early up working that also formed a local from Newton Abbot just after 7am each day which often produced a pair of 50s.
There were also the turns between Brighton/Portsmouth and Paignton/Plymouth etc, which up to about 1987 were formed of mk1s but after that were mk2s in NSE livery which I assume were from the same pool of coaches?
 

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The core service from roughly 1970-1980, it required 5xWR 8/9 sets plus:
1x 4-set which did Salisbury-Exeter-Barnstaple-Basingstoke-Salisbury
1x 5(?)-set plus vans for the 01.15 papers to Yeovil
1 or 2 TC sets for commuter trains (06.45ish up/18.10 down)
1 3-set for a Basingstoke-Salisbury commuter train (replaced by a DEMU)
Towards the end of that period 1x 8-set borrowed from the Weymouth Quay run for 16.38 to Yeovil.
And then NSE got creative with extra trains - mostly by squeezing more trips out of the "odd" sets... and started the real growth.
 

hexagon789

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I'm trying to find out how many locos and rakes of coaching stock were required to run the service before 159s were introduced. Class 33/47/50s were mainly used with mark 2/and even some TC stock were used. 22 159s were introduced so half that number possible?
Does anyone know?
The 33/TCs usually worked the Salisbury terminators rather than through to Exeter
 
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Were the Exeter to Waterloo trains regularly banked/double headed over Exeter Bank, or did the end of regular banking coincide with the end of steam on the route?

It was load 9 over usually wasn’t? No problem for a Class 50, but a challenge for a 33 especially if supply ETS (ETH at the time).
 

Whistler40145

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IIRC, there was a 33/1+4TC from Exeter St Davids which coupled with another 33/1+4tTC at Yeovil Junction, the combined train ran as 331+4TC+4TC+33/1
 

Gloster

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Were the Exeter to Waterloo trains regularly banked/double headed over Exeter Bank, or did the end of regular banking coincide with the end of steam on the route?

It was load 9 over usually wasn’t? No problem for a Class 50, but a challenge for a 33 especially if supply ETS (ETH at the time).
I think that beyond Yeovil Junction the limit for a single 33 was eight coaches, but nine if the eth was switched off.
 

Taunton

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It was load 9 over usually wasn’t? No problem for a Class 50, but a challenge for a 33 especially if supply ETS (ETH at the time).
The Class 33, when used on the route, as a matter of routine switched off the ETH on upward grades (or throughout when running late). Honiton bank westbound from Axminster was another standard location.

For all that they were smaller locos running with the same loads, the Class 33s don't seem to have been ripped apart at all by their full-throttle, high speed endeavours, unlike the supposedly more capable 50s and 47s that followed them.
 

Cowley

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The Class 33, when used on the route, as a matter of routine switched off the ETH on upward grades (or throughout when running late). Honiton bank westbound from Axminster was another standard location.

For all that they were smaller locos running with the same loads, the Class 33s don't seem to have been ripped apart at all by their full-throttle, high speed endeavours, unlike the supposedly more capable 50s and 47s that followed them.

Absolutely right.
A 33 would dig in and take an 8/9 coach rake of mk2s up the bank without too much fuss at all really (I had a cab ride in one around 1987 from St David’s to Central and the loco just took it).
33s would always lose a bit of time over the 88 or so miles to Salisbury but they were surprisingly punchy little machines.
 

randyrippley

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I think that beyond Yeovil Junction the limit for a single 33 was eight coaches, but nine if the eth was switched off.
This keeps cropping up.
ETH load was always said to be 8, but for a long time, even in winter the 33s hauled 9 - seven passenger coaches with a van or full brake at each end
 

4REP

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Another thing I wanted to clear is that there were 34 TC stock and 19 class 33/1. With 15 Reps in the mix. It might have been possible that enough units and locos would of covered the Bournemouth /Weymouth service and the W.O.E service without having 50s and Mark 2s.
Mainly 33+8TC On W.O.E services and the rest with Reps on 91/92 route.
And would of saved loco turnarounds at Exeter etc
 

Gloster

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This keeps cropping up.
ETH load was always said to be 8, but for a long time, even in winter the 33s hauled 9 - seven passenger coaches with a van or full brake at each end
Recollection is that around the end of the seventies the normal Waterloo-Exeter formation was eight Mark1 coaches (*) with a couple of BSK in the middle so that the guard would always be on the platform at some of the shorter ones. A few years later, with the regular use of early Mark 2 vehicles, the brake vehicles were usually BFK, but on the same position.

* - The odd early Mark 2, mostly TSO, could appear.
 

4REP

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I watched on youtube of trains at surbiton in 1985 filmed in the evening on what appears to be in one scene a loco with mark one coaches with no curtains in the windows and no red markers at the back looking closely. So can't be an emu.
Possibly or most likely an Exeter service. So Mark 1s probably still used but not on all services.
 

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I watched on youtube of trains at surbiton in 1985 filmed in the evening on what appears to be in one scene a loco with mark one coaches with no curtains in the windows and no red markers at the back looking closely. So can't be an emu.
Possibly or most likely an Exeter service. So Mark 1s probably still used but not on all services.

Was this the one with most of the Mk1s in Exec livery? Have to admit I was a bit bemused by that sight so early into that livery and on a SWML working.
 

4REP

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Was this the one with most of the Mk1s in Exec livery? Have to admit I was a bit bemused by that sight so early into that livery and on a SWML working.
It were filmed in the dark so could not see the livery. The first scene were a 50/mark 2s. Couple of 455 scenes and a vep on an 83 service. The best scene for me a class 33/1 with 8TC storming through.
But could not tell with the rake of mark 1 stock scene. Its not hard to find if you want to watch and observe for yourself.
Just type Surbiton station 1985.
 

nlogax

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It were filmed in the dark so could not see the livery. The first scene were a 50/mark 2s. Couple of 455 scenes and a vep on an 83 service. The best scene for me a class 33/1 with 8TC storming through.
But could not tell with the rake of mark 1 stock scene. Its not hard to find if you want to watch and observe for yourself.
Just type Surbiton station 1985.
I watched it, it's the same clip. Immediately after the 33 pushing the 4TCs..turn up your monitor brightness and you should be able to see the IC livery
 
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It's interesting to look at the fuel capacity of the WoE locos and compare the ETH of and ETH on values.

Class 33's were 600 miles regardless of whether ETH was on or off and the situation was the same for classes 31/4 and 50.

However, for classes 47 and 52 there was a significant drop when ETH was on.

The range of a Class 47/0 dropped from 600mi to 500mi when ETH was activated.
The range of a Class 52 dropped from 680mi to 570mi when ETH was activated.

The 47's were know for their short range and they did cause diagramming issues. This isn't an issue with the 159's.
 

Cowley

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It's interesting to look at the fuel capacity of the WoE locos and compare the ETH of and ETH on values.

Class 33's were 600 miles regardless of whether ETH was on or off and the situation was the same for classes 31/4 and 50.

However, for classes 47 and 52 there was a significant drop when ETH was on.

The range of a Class 47/0 dropped from 600mi to 500mi when ETH was activated.
The range of a Class 52 dropped from 680mi to 570mi when ETH was activated.

The 47's were know for their short range and they did cause diagramming issues. This isn't an issue with the 159's.
Neither 47/0s or class 52s ever had ETH/ETS. They were both fitted with steam heating boilers and all the 47/0s were no heat at all by the end of the 1980s after the end of steam heating...
Also the 47/7s had long range fuel tanks (along with the 47/8s).
 

hexagon789

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It's interesting to look at the fuel capacity of the WoE locos and compare the ETH of and ETH on values.

Class 33's were 600 miles regardless of whether ETH was on or off and the situation was the same for classes 31/4 and 50.

However, for classes 47 and 52 there was a significant drop when ETH was on.

The range of a Class 47/0 dropped from 600mi to 500mi when ETH was activated.
The range of a Class 52 dropped from 680mi to 570mi when ETH was activated.

The 47's were know for their short range and they did cause diagramming issues. This isn't an issue with the 159's.
47/0s were steam heat only and Class 52 Westerns did not have ETH, one of the reasons they were withdrawn.

Also many 47/4s and all 47/7s had long range fuel tanks fitted thus negating any range issues. The 47/7s managed mileages that only HSTs exceeded during their heyday.
 
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So I realise that I have made a small balls up on the Class 47/52 ETH thing and that I should have said steam heat, but still, it's interesting to compare their milage capabilities.

I don't get the whole maximum range thing though. Surely the MPG and maximum range would vary depending on the load? Is 600mi for a 33 light engine, or with load 10? It must make a differance in the same way towing a trailer with a car makes a big differance to MPG. The route must also affect it as well.
 
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