W/S down to 3 a day from December

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daikilo

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Looks like this Andy Hamilton has the right idea. They merged 2 lighter loaded services right in between the former services. This is the best way to satisfy passengers who formerly used the 2 services. This is business sense, and common sense. Why run a train if not enough people use it? Exactly why I hate SLCs!
Well let's say Andy has won his bid to maintain a decent WSMR service in the face of other possible uses of the stock. He can thus continue to build for the future.
 
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tbtc

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I sometimes wonder who you speak to tbtc :D:D as Option 5 is incredibly likely in my opinion. Arriva have more clout in the DB deal than a lot imagine I supect and I wouldnt be suprised if they pushed the Aber idea again (It has never been dead in the water in their eyes). They could probably stitch the paths south of Brum Int together with a bit of work.
The timings seem to work reasonably well to attract English tourists to Aberystwyth (since the Aber service was being "sold" as attracting tourists *to* Wales, unlike the typical Open Access sucking trade to London).

Watch this space, eh?
 

Aictos

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From Wrexham and Shropshire MD Andy Hamilton this evening:

The 2 early UP and 2 late afternoon/evening DOWN trains are the revenue earners, others weren't.
Spare WSMR set and crew will be on loan to Chiltern whilst they have their DMU fleet refurbished.
All gets revisited in May 2012 when Virgins sweatheart deal goes.
What Chiltern workings would the WSMR set and Crew likely be doing then, Marylebone to Birmingham?
 

The Planner

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Early morning Moor St - Marlyebone and back in the evening. Id expect there would be a random one in the day too.
 

DarloRich

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Five trains a day down to four trains a day...

...four trains a day down to three trains a day...

...but if WMSR are struggling then how on earth are GC maintaining their service? Or is it just that WMSR have a business-minded owner with a better use for the stock?

Shame in a way for WMSR because the service is clearly at the mercy of demand at Chiltern, and the 67/ coaches can clearly earn a lot more money doing more trips there instead.
All the GC services i use (from NE to London or vice versa) are well loaded - the 1917 (a 180 DMU) off the Cross is often full and mega standing. Havent seen anyone left behind yet but it wont be long. Even first class off peak is quite well used. Peak time that is also standing room only. I have been on a couple of off peak West Riding services (Doncaster -KX) and they were lightly loaded but it may be becuase they are fairly new and intrest has yet to ramp up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Edit - havent been on any WSR services but the set i bumped into at Crewe recently looked very nice and conforatbale - couldnt persaude the driver or gaurd to let me on mind!

Must have a trip soon!
 

sprinterguy

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All the GC services i use (from NE to London or vice versa) are well loaded - the 1917 (a 180 DMU) off the Cross is often full and mega standing. Havent seen anyone left behind yet but it wont be long. Even first class off peak is quite well used. Peak time that is also standing room only. I have been on a couple of off peak West Riding services (Doncaster -KX) and they were lightly loaded but it may be becuase they are fairly new and intrest has yet to ramp up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Edit - havent been on any WSR services but the set i bumped into at Crewe recently looked very nice and conforatbale - couldnt persaude the driver or gaurd to let me on mind!

Must have a trip soon!
You definitely should! Wrexham and Shropshire are my favourite train operator in the UK, either open access or franchised. I do my best to find any reason I can to travel W&S, as their first class service is absolutely exquisite and I really want to see them succeed. My next trip with them will be next Thursday! Their trains that I have travelled on see quite some variation in passenger numbers: The early morning outbound service to Wrexham is very lightly loaded.

I was somewhat disappointed when I decided to sample Grand Central’s first class offering though, I was expecting something akin to W&S, but found the service lacking. In their defence though it was a very busy service throughout from London to Sunderland, almost full to standing even in first class, and standard was much busier when I walked through, so the staff and their food and drink supplies were stretched pretty thin. Recently Grand Central’s train loadings on the London to Sunderland route seem very healthy when I see/travel on their trains, and there seems to be a fair percentage of through passengers as well, which I’m very pleased to see. Hopefully, the Bradford trains will improve in the next year or two just as the Sunderland trains did once the service became more widely known about and the service began to get more reliable: GC need to get on top of their reliability problems if they are to attract passengers.
 

saracen43

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The current turnaround times at Wrexham are also very tight, and they work just fine.

It does seem that this service reduction dovetails nicely with the start of Chiltern's loco hauled services.

I'm disappointed to hear about this service reduction, clearly Wrexham and Shropshire's off peak trains aren't faring so well. At least the peak trains that I tend to travel on are generally well filled.

This has further persuaded me to take the Wrexham and Shropshire trip I was tentatively planning for next Thursday!
Do you know what times the loco hauled chilterns will be to and from london.
 

4SRKT

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This is extremely bad news as the 15:25 off Wrexham is part of my huge plan to have a NIR thumper farewell next May or June while combining as much interesting traction as possible:

Wednesday after lunch: Morley > Manchester > Shrewsbury > Marylebone (67)
Wednesday night: Paddington > Penzance (57)
Thursday: Penzance > Exeter > Parkway > Cardiff > Bubble car > Llandudno Jn (57) > Llandudno branch > Bangor > Holyhead
Thursday night: Boat to Dublin
Friday: Dublin > Belfast (201) > all day on Larne line (thumpers :)) > fly home.

We'll have to leave earlier now, which means an extra half day's leave, plus 6 1/2 hours in London instead of 4 1/2, which could be a problem if we spend the whole time in pubs and get refused entry to the sleeper! Still worth doing (booking in advance about £160 :))
 
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sprinterguy

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Do you know what times the loco hauled chilterns will be to and from london.
The Chiltern December timetable that is available to download from their website shows the following trains as "formed of carriages which may carry different branding": I think it's a resonably safe bet that this refers to the loco hauled diagram:

05:46 Bhm Moor St. to Ldn Marylebone (a.07:52)
16:33 Ldn Marylebone to Bhm Moor St. (a. 18:35)

Monday to Fridays only

There is also a second train marked as "carriages which may carry different branding", which operates an inbound Banbury to Marylebone in the morning peak, and an outbound back to Banbury in the evening peak. It is very easy to work out (perhaps wrongly, but it makes a lot of sense) that this could well be a daily fill in turn for the Wrexham and Shropshire train that forms the off peak 09:20 Marylebone to Wrexham and 13:25 return.
 
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tbtc

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The Chiltern December timetable that is available to download from their website shows the following trains as "formed of carriages which may carry different branding": I think it's a resonably safe bet that this refers to the loco hauled diagram:

05:46 Bhm Moor St. to Ldn Marylebone (a.07:52)
16:33 Ldn Marylebone to Bhm Moor St. (a. 18:35)

Monday to Fridays only

There is also a second train marked as "carriages which may carry different branding", which operates an inbound Banbury to Marylebone in the morning peak, and an outbound back to Banbury in the evening peak. It is very easy to work out that this could well be a daily fill in turn for the Wrexham and Shropshire train that forms the off peak 09:20 Marylebone to Wrexham and 13:25 return.
Good detective work :D

It shows how good the customer service is at Chiltern that they inform passengers about such minor things. Can you imagine how complicated that'd be for other TOCs, especially all the different liveries taken on when Central Trains was abolished :lol:
 

Ivo

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This is asking for trouble, but in order for WSMR to make a bit more, and for ATW to get their Aberystwyth train, could they not re-hash the Aber bit into a feeder for the WSMR? That way they would get both the easy route to London from Mid-Wales and WSMR would carry more passengers. Would that not work? Or even, as a last resort, start running multiple 158s on the WSMR and Aber route, which merge at Shrewsbury (heaven forbid...!)?
 

sprinterguy

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Good detective work :D

It shows how good the customer service is at Chiltern that they inform passengers about such minor things. Can you imagine how complicated that'd be for other TOCs, especially all the different liveries taken on when Central Trains was abolished :lol:
It does indeed show just how customer focused Chiltern are by providing that sort of level of information to ensure there isn't too much confusion when a silver train pulls in instead of a blue and white one. Some of the other TOCs are also very good at this: London Midland have signs at stations on the Crosscity line telling passengers which trains in the peaks are formed of three coaches and which of six, as well as how crowded that service is likely to be. Plus East Coast timetables tell you whether to expect a 91 or an HST.

On the other hand, some TOCs wouldn't even be able to tell you what type of train is going to turn up on a particular service, let alone what branding it's going to be carrying!

It's good to see some definite timings for this. I do dearly hope that the Banbury to London Marylebone peak train is a fill in for the Wrexham and Shropshire off peak service, it would be good to see joined up thinking concerning stock utilisation between the two DB owned companies.

It's a shame the Chiltern Birmingham to Marylebone set doesn't appear to be operating a lunchtime fill-in turn to Brum and back between it's peak workings, it would be a good utilisation of the stock.
 

Skip 10

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The Chiltern December timetable that is available to download from their website shows the following trains as "formed of carriages which may carry different branding": I think it's a resonably safe bet that this refers to the loco hauled diagram:

05:46 Bhm Moor St. to Ldn Marylebone (a.07:52)
16:33 Ldn Marylebone to Bhm Moor St. (a. 18:35)

Monday to Fridays only

There is also a second train marked as "carriages which may carry different branding", which operates an inbound Banbury to Marylebone in the morning peak, and an outbound back to Banbury in the evening peak. It is very easy to work out (perhaps wrongly, but it makes a lot of sense) that this could well be a daily fill in turn for the Wrexham and Shropshire train that forms the off peak 09:20 Marylebone to Wrexham and 13:25 return.
At present this should be a blue & grey set to be worked by Chiltern crews at present though you never know what can happen at the moment.
 

DarloRich

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Got to say i have never had a problem with GC reliability ( travel at least once a week) just lucky i guess! That will have jinxed Fridays journey:lol::lol::lol:

Can justify a trip on WSR now i live down south. Now what is there to do in Wrexham so that i can cover the journey as a weekend away for the boss..........................................:lol:
 

sprinterguy

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At present this should be a blue & grey set to be worked by Chiltern crews at present though you never know what can happen at the moment.
Shame, I had my fingers crossed for some stock sharing between W&S and Chiltern. Though studying the December Wrexham and Shropshire timetable (with three trains each way) more carefully, it works very well as a self contained set of workings anyway.

Had a feeling the blue and grey set would be making an appearance on the Banbury working.

EDIT: I've started a new thread concerning the Chiltern loco hauled times from December:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=37966as

I feel that otherwise this thread will get cluttered up with questions regarding the Chiltern operation and whilst linked to this story, I think deserves to be a subject in it's own right.
 
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Squaddie

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Saturday will similarly be reduced from four to three trains in each direction.
The timetable for Saturday, 18 December on the W&S website show just two trains from Wrexham to London in the morning and two from London to Wrexham in the evening. A day trip from London to Wrexham is impossible.

It looks like I'm going to have to go back to using Virgin and ATW for my monthly trips to visit family in Wrexham. :(

The thing WSMR did was trey to provide an excellent service on such a where they wouldn't make much profit. The flat First Class fares, and dead cheap Standard tickets, refurbs, catering, passenger onboard service etc, qand at such a high service level was such a massive gamble.
WSMR seemed to think - as do many enthusiasts on this site - that First Class is all about freebies. It's not. All your typical first class passenger wants is a comfortable seat with a bit of space and legroom and a peaceful environment. The last thing I wanted after spending a day with family in Wrexham was another three-course meal so, on the assumption that a fair proportion of the first-class fare was for the meal that I wasn't going to eat, I only ever travelled in standard.
 
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TDK

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If the 2 earlies and lates were the only money earners, why put the third on ?
Positioning for one of the late returns most likely
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The timetable for Saturday, 18 December on the W&S website show just two trains from Wrexham to London in the morning and two from London to Wrexham in the evening. A day trip from London to Wrexham is impossible.

It looks like I'm going to have to go back to using Virgin and ATW for my monthly trips to visit family in Wrexham. :(
There is engineering works every weekend until May, this is probably the reasoning for 2
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Looks like this Andy Hamilton has the right idea. They merged 2 lighter loaded services right in between the former services. This is the best way to satisfy passengers who formerly used the 2 services. This is business sense, and common sense. Why run a train if not enough people use it? Exactly why I hate SLCs!
Well said,at the end of the day WSMR is a business and business's need to make money, It'sa shame some services are nolonger going to be run but this is obviously needed for a sturdy business case, let's hope it works
 

merlodlliw

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We have two W/S employees giving chapter & verse on this Forum , so solid info, everything else is what might be.

There is also nothing coming out of Pentarth House that supports any future open access ambition on behalf of the All Wales Franchise whatsoever.
November 17th is the key date for rail budgets in Wales,this will be an interesting day.
 
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steve099

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I'm a little surprised the opportunity wasn't taken to grow day-tripping demand with a 10.15 or 12.15 arrival into Marylebone. It does render their 'Open' tickets somewhat redundant considering a VHF London-Brum and Brum-Shrewsbury-Aber/Chester connection is only a few pounds more off-peak.
 

saracen43

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The Chiltern December timetable that is available to download from their website shows the following trains as "formed of carriages which may carry different branding": I think it's a resonably safe bet that this refers to the loco hauled diagram:

05:46 Bhm Moor St. to Ldn Marylebone (a.07:52)
16:33 Ldn Marylebone to Bhm Moor St. (a. 18:35)

Monday to Fridays only

There is also a second train marked as "carriages which may carry different branding", which operates an inbound Banbury to Marylebone in the morning peak, and an outbound back to Banbury in the evening peak. It is very easy to work out (perhaps wrongly, but it makes a lot of sense) that this could well be a daily fill in turn for the Wrexham and Shropshire train that forms the off peak 09:20 Marylebone to Wrexham and 13:25 return.
Cheers for the gen Just got in from work,do you know how many coaches it
will consist of.After L/spa i assumes it stops at solihul.
 

sprinterguy

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Cheers for the gen Just got in from work,do you know how many coaches it
will consist of.After L/spa i assumes it stops at solihul.
There's now a new thread for details of the Chiltern loco hauled trains, which will give you all the info you need:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=37966

And the December Chiltern timetable can be found here: http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/sites/default/files/CH10D_Book_Web.pdf

The Birmingham train will be formed of a standard four carriage Wrexham and Shropshire carriage rake. The stopping pattern is similar to the standard Birmingham to Marylebone trains formed of 168 "Clubmans", so calls at Warwick Parkway, Dorridge and Solihull.
 

saracen43

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There's now a new thread for details of the Chiltern loco hauled trains, which will give you all the info you need:
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=37966

And the December Chiltern timetable can be found here: http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/sites/default/files/CH10D_Book_Web.pdf

The Birmingham train will be formed of a standard four carriage Wrexham and Shropshire carriage rake. The stopping pattern is similar to the standard Birmingham to Marylebone trains formed of 168 "Clubmans", so calls at Warwick Parkway, Dorridge and Solihull.
Thanks for the link,much appreciated.
 

paul1609

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Longer term, what do you reckon WMSR will be like?

Option One: As now
Option Two: Reduced to one train a day doing the full journey
Option Three: slowed down to cover Chiltern services from Solihull/ Leamington/ Warwick etc
Option Four: Withdrawn
Option Five: A compromise which keeps a daily Wrexham service, and uses the stock during the rest of the day to provide the Aberytwyth service ATW wanted to run. The timings would work so that the morning arrival into London provides a "tourist friendly" departure for the Welsh coast, and a mid-morning departure for tourists heading back to London. Only trouble is it'd have to be an ERMTS 158 and one unit won't be able to work all duties (so the morning 158 from Wrexham would go on to spend the afternoon on Cambrian duties, and a morning Cambrian 158 would end up at Wrexham in the evening):

Wrexham......05.10
Aberystwyth..............10.07
Shrewsbury...05.52....12.07
Marylebone...08.57....15.15

Marylebone..09.33...16.30
Shrewsbury..12.40...19.34
Aberystwyth..14.40
Wrexham...............20.23
Personally Id say that at 5 hours from London the potential tourist market to Aberystwyth would be close to zero. Most Uk holidays taken by people in London and the South East are long weekends / short break and a 5 Hour train journey is just too long for that market.
 

tbtc

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Personally Id say that at 5 hours from London the potential tourist market to Aberystwyth would be close to zero. Most Uk holidays taken by people in London and the South East are long weekends / short break and a 5 Hour train journey is just too long for that market.
True, although there's obviously more demand from London/ South East to go to Aberystwyth (University/ Coast/ Tourist Attractions) than Wrexham.

I liked the ATW approach of selling their proposal for trying to attract people to Wales, rather than the "attracting people to London" priority of Open Access operators.
 

Failed Unit

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Personally Id say that at 5 hours from London the potential tourist market to Aberystwyth would be close to zero. Most Uk holidays taken by people in London and the South East are long weekends / short break and a 5 Hour train journey is just too long for that market.
When you think of how far out of London on other routes you can get in 5 hours!

Edinburgh (in fact nearly to Stirling), Glasgow, Cornwall you have a point.
 

paul1609

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Down here you can get to a huge chunk of europe in the time you can get aberystwyth.
Avignon is 5 hr 31 m off the 07.25 from Ashford International including the hour to change in Paris.
 

Gareth Marston

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Down here you can get to a huge chunk of europe in the time you can get aberystwyth.
Avignon is 5 hr 31 m off the 07.25 from Ashford International including the hour to change in Paris.
The peak times for long distance travel from/to Aberystwyth throughout the year is Friday PM, Saturday up to about 1600 and Sunday PM. That's were the market is if your an open access operator looking to get maximum revenue.

A lot of people on this forum don't understand the flexibility that Open Access operators have hence the hysteria over any alterations by them. There was never a tablet of stone that said WSMR had to run 5 or 4 trains a day to/from Wrexham.
 

37401

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I still think WSMR will be gone in a few years
Errm if they kept the services that made a loss maybe but otherwise I disagree

I'm often on WSMR trains and I've seen said trains with few people on so it makes perfect sence
 
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merlodlliw

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Personally Id say that at 5 hours from London the potential tourist market to Aberystwyth would be close to zero. Most Uk holidays taken by people in London and the South East are long weekends / short break and a 5 Hour train journey is just too long for that market.
As I said in my previous thread,there is absolute no interest any more from the All Wales Franchise in setting up any Open Access service to/from London.
This comes from an impeccable source in WAG.
 

benwilliams

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I would just like to make out, that from the very start Wrexham and Shropshire Railways have been running with the passengers best interests. Some of the comments on here are quiet harsh considering that WSMR are a non subsidised Private Train Operator.

At the end of the day, remember that WSMR is only 2 1/2 years old. They have gone from strength to strength and had the best passenger satisfaction scores in the whole of the railway system. They recieved an amazing 99% customer satisfaction score. They offer at seat service for both first and standard class customers and because they are a small company everyone knows each other and passengers enjoy the freindly feel of this.

The company needs to reduce services on its unprofitable trains so that it can spend more money on improving the busier trains it runs.

Although this may look bad dropping a service train, its no good running it if they are making massive financial losses.

The Bosses and Management team are always doing their absolute best, and although they have to make the hard decisions like cuts, they are always doing this in the interest to keep Wrexham and Shropshire running for the passengers who love the train.

Wrexham and Shropshire are always supporting the local communities along the line, and so i ask that instead of moaning and groaning at this, you try and give them as much support as possible.

If they can start running at a profit, you may find that in time extra services could be added, but at the moment they need to concentrate on keeping the company running profitably to ensure a safe stake in the continued success in such a great company.

Do remember the staff who run these trains. They are a great community of people.
 
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