W/S down to 3 a day from December

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scotsman

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I think WSMR will by trying their damndest to stay in existance till 2012, when DB get their shot at the valuable WCML revenure. Even if it means going down to a skeleton service with the other sets and crews on loan to Chiltern. I think we can all live with that, providing there's no redundancies.
 
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tbtc

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I think WSMR will by trying their damndest to stay in existance till 2012, when DB get their shot at the valuable WCML revenure. Even if it means going down to a skeleton service with the other sets and crews on loan to Chiltern. I think we can all live with that, providing there's no redundancies.
Yes and no.

The "moderation of competition" will end (apparently), but what if DB get the West Coast franchise? That might mean the end of WMSR... :|
 

steve099

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Yes and no.

The "moderation of competition" will end (apparently), but what if DB get the West Coast franchise? That might mean the end of WMSR... :|
The end of WSMR and the start of WCML services to Shropshire? Yes, that would be a shame.:|
 

benwilliams

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Where do you get the 25 minutes from Ben?, more like 15 from the EG 3, another 4 or 5 from the Shrewsbury to Oxley upgrade, possible 2 or 3 from the future upgrade from Wrexham to Shrewsbury, the only way of really reducing the journey time is finding better paths and routes.
sorry my mistake. i though it was something like 20-25 min reduction
appoligies. 15 seems more realistic
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Yes and no.

but what if DB get the West Coast franchise? That might mean the end of WMSR... :|
why would that mean the end of wsmr. im confused
 

tbtc

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why would that mean the end of wsmr. im confused
If DB get the West Coast franchise, they'll want to concentrate on London - Birmingham/ Manchester/ Liverpool etc. Similarly, now they have ATW, they'll want to concentrate resources on the busy lines in South Wales. They won't want to worry about running something like WMSR which is more like a "daily railtour" than a TOC.

WMSR's best bet is that DB lose the West Coast bid and then there's more chance of WMSR competing to other WCML stations.
 

benwilliams

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If DB get the West Coast franchise, they'll want to concentrate on London - Birmingham/ Manchester/ Liverpool etc. Similarly, now they have ATW, they'll want to concentrate resources on the busy lines in South Wales. They won't want to worry about running something like WMSR which is more like a "daily railtour" than a TOC.

WMSR's best bet is that DB lose the West Coast bid and then there's more chance of WMSR competing to other WCML stations.

Im not sure i agree with this. I thought WSMR came under the operations board of Chiltern Railways which although its all owned by DB i cant think they would close WSMR just so they could concentrate opps on the WCML.

WSMR and Chiltern Rail have a good management team and im sure they wouldnt just get rid of WSMR

Just because its a loco hauled service, doesnt mean its a railtour
Other TOC's do loco hauled like ATW with their Holyhead - Cardiff
 

sprinterguy

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Has there ever been a regular scheduled diesel-hauled service between Marylebone and Birmingham before?
It seems not. At the end of the 60s there was a two-hourly loco hauled semi-fast on the Chiltern line, but this ran from London Paddington to Birmingham New Street whilst the Chiltern line was at it's lowest ebb. And even that went over to class 123 DMUs in the seventies. All the Marylebone departures were in the hands of class 115 DMUs until the 165 Turbos came along.

So how's that for progress! A line that never saw loco haulage in the BR "Heyday" is to now get timetabled loco hauled trains (above the current Wrexham and Shropshire trains)! Fantastic, that's what I like to hear!
 

paul1609

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Is the end of moderation of competition the WSMR panacea its made out to be?
True WSMR will be able to pick up passengers at Wolverhampton and possibly Birmingham New Street but because (unlike GC on London York) it will not be able to offer competitive journey times with New WCML TOC ltd. its ORCATs receipts will be quite limited. Is it realy going to be profitable for it to compete with rock bottom advance fares against the likes of London Midland or even Chiltern. I think not.

The only way I can see that that WSMR can survive if is it can generate a shrewsbury, telford to London market sadly I think the reality is that its not happening at present.

Must get a first class trip in soon, aybody up for Railuks first first class meet?
 

dk1

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The only way I can see that that WSMR can survive if is it can generate a shrewsbury, telford to London market sadly I think the reality is that its not happening at present.
& probably using more in the way of 168 Clubmans with an at-seat trolley. This could well be the way for better loadings with a more frequent service over the core part of the route.

Out of interest do WSMR get a cut of the local fare pot on the Wolves-Shrewsbury line too?
 

TDK

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Im glad you got there first for that one, I seriously laughed out loud to it....

15 is asking a lot too. Its only south of Princes Risborough you are really going to gain. High Wycombe still stuffs you. I'll take a look at what you have got in the May 11 timetable.

4 to 5 for the Shrewsbury to Oxley is optimistic too, the classic "de-scope" has happened on that one. You should be odds on for 3 though but don't bet on a better path because of it though. Id put cash on you sitting at Wolves North twiddling your thumbs. Id start you later at Wrexham if it were me.
Planner I think 15mins is realistic, as far as I am aware it will be 100mph running for 67/mk3/DVT from Banbury to Ruislip, ok so Aynho, Risborough & Wycombe will be restricted, currently the only 100mph stretch is between Bicester and Risborough, when WSMR were limited to 60 it took 20minutes now it takes 13 minutes, the stretch from Aynho to Biscester currently is 85 mph, and from Risborough to Ruislipis 70, from Ruislip to Neasden is 60 going up to 80, with some maths I have worked it out that it will save 16 minutes accounting for 3 minutes lost due to slowing for the restrictions. However, you need a pretty good path for that to work, I have done Marylebone to Banbury in 59 minutes before with a good path where it is timed at 63 minutes at best. It would be interesting to read your results, look at the timings between Banbury and London after EG3 is upand running.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The end of WSMR and the start of WCML services to Shropshire? Yes, that would be a shame.:|
If DB get the WCML it will be a separate sub company, the same as XC, ATW, Chiltern & WSMR. They willallhave to answer finally to DB but I cannot see a London Shropshire service being set up, fistly from Wolves you need diesel power, there are not enough super Voyagers currently let alone finding more for this run, it is not practical with the HS timetable to have trains running at 110mph on the WCML as this will cause a lul for the 125 pendos. There seems a lot of 2nd guessing here.
 

benwilliams

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The only way I can see that that WSMR can survive if is it can generate a shrewsbury, telford to London market sadly I think the reality is that its not happening at present.
WSMR are trying this and get good loadings at both Shrewsbury and Telford Central. They offer many promotions with Telford resisdents like a 1/3 off with Flexi Cards and Family saver Tickets for only £80 return.

The 07.23 service WRX - MYB always seems to get very busy and fills up between Shrewsbury and Telford with a few more boarding at Cosford. 1st class is always busy and standard is often near full

I also think that WSMR would loose passengers if the converted to using clubmans as WSMR's unique selling point is its on-board catering and staff friendly service. This is what they have won awards for and what many people love about Wrexham and Shropshire
 

Greenback

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Im not sure i agree with this. I thought WSMR came under the operations board of Chiltern Railways which although its all owned by DB i cant think they would close WSMR just so they could concentrate opps on the WCML.

WSMR and Chiltern Rail have a good management team and im sure they wouldnt just get rid of WSMR

Just because its a loco hauled service, doesnt mean its a railtour
Other TOC's do loco hauled like ATW with their Holyhead - Cardiff
They would shut down WSMR if it made a loss or simply didn't produce a sufficient return on the resource employed. If the bosses at Chiltern think there is more money to be made in employing the sets elsewhere, then that's what they will do!

The ATW loco service is heavily subsidised by the Welsh Assembly Government (WAG). WSMR is an open access operatro that receives no subsidy, as they keep telling everyone. If they can't turn a profit that satisfies the bean counters, then they will not survive.
 

Pumbaa

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I also think that WSMR would loose passengers
They seem to be doing alright at the moment using their LHCS, so shouldn't be too much of an issue for them ;)

As much as I support OA, I can accept that if as a business plan its not working, the best thing to do is for it to fold. The employees have to take that risk knowing that while they dont expect to lose their job, its what they signed up for. And just because they're a small operator, doesn't mean we should all get sentimental about it.
 

Railjet

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It seems not. At the end of the 60s there was a two-hourly loco hauled semi-fast on the Chiltern line, but this ran from London Paddington to Birmingham New Street whilst the Chiltern line was at it's lowest ebb. And even that went over to class 123 DMUs in the seventies. All the Marylebone departures were in the hands of class 115 DMUs until the 165 Turbos came along.
Great, thanks for that; confirms what I thought.

So how's that for progress! A line that never saw loco haulage in the BR "Heyday" is to now get timetabled loco hauled trains (above the current Wrexham and Shropshire trains)! Fantastic, that's what I like to hear!
Agreed and lets hope for more examples. :p
 

Skip 10

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If DB get the West Coast franchise, they'll want to concentrate on London - Birmingham/ Manchester/ Liverpool etc. Similarly, now they have ATW, they'll want to concentrate resources on the busy lines in South Wales. They won't want to worry about running something like WMSR which is more like a "daily railtour" than a TOC.

WMSR's best bet is that DB lose the West Coast bid and then there's more chance of WMSR competing to other WCML stations.
Just imagine that someone wanted to start on OA service lets call that person Ian and his OA TOC we shall call GNWR/GNER. Now lets give Ian a major financial backer lets say.......DB. Oh hang on Id feel abit daft suggesting that DB wont bother with OA on the west coast if they win the WCML franchise.....:oops:
 

paul1609

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Great, thanks for that; confirms what I thought.



Agreed and lets hope for more examples. :p
I think that a loco hauled service from London Paddington to Banbury via High Wycombe lasted well in to Network Southeast days. I dont have an exact date but I think it survived until the late 80s/ early 90s.



 

150219

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The last set of regular loco hauled services was in 1992, IIRC.

I believe I'm right in saying, based on evidence from my colleagues, that the last loco hauled service broke down at Bicester too!
 

Railjet

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I think that a loco hauled service from London Paddington to Banbury via High Wycombe lasted well in to Network Southeast days. I dont have an exact date but I think it survived until the late 80s/ early 90s.
... which is why I referred to Marylebone and Birmingham. :p
 

The Planner

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Just imagine that someone wanted to start on OA service lets call that person Ian and his OA TOC we shall call GNWR/GNER. Now lets give Ian a major financial backer lets say.......DB. Oh hang on Id feel abit daft suggesting that DB wont bother with OA on the west coast if they win the WCML franchise.....:oops:
All a bit pot and kettle though with Mr Yeowart considering moderation of competition in his track access application though.....
 
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