Wabtec Awarded Contract For £60M Class 321 Refurbishment Project.

[Alfie1014]

The second unit (304) in the Renatus project went to Wabtec Doncaster yesterday (18th). Wonder if that means either 303 or 448 will be returning anytime soon, or simply a ramping up of the project?

Presumably to cover the loss of 321s for the programme there will be an 8 car 317 peak hour GEML diagram from the December timetable change. Also noted this week was the out of service 317722 which has moved from the back of Ilford Depot to the front, may mean nothing though?

 

[Bringback309s]

The second unit (304) in the Renatus project went to Wabtec Doncaster yesterday (18th). Wonder if that means either 303 or 448 will be returning anytime soon, or simply a ramping up of the project?

Presumably to cover the loss of 321s for the programme there will be an 8 car 317 peak hour GEML diagram from the December timetable change. Also noted this week was the out of service 317722 which has moved from the back of Ilford Depot to the front, may mean nothing though?

2 x 317's left Colchester at around 12.30 on Saturday 5th December, London bound...

 

[Shunter_69]

317's go to/from Clacton every Saturday for maintenance.

317722 took a return trip to Hornsey today as it was the only unit available for the trip.

 

[Wivenswold]

That sounds like it could have been an ex-Clacton service. Can anyone confirm which diagrams the 317s will be on?

Any news on 321 303?

 

[Bringback309s]

317's go to/from Clacton every Saturday for maintenance.

317722 took a return trip to Hornsey today as it was the only unit available for the trip.

That explains it, they were running empty.

 

[Jala_150]

That sounds like it could have been an ex-Clacton service. Can anyone confirm which diagrams the 317s will be on?

Any news on 321 303?

As far as I'm aware the 317 will only be working the 07:29 Witham to Liverpool St. (Works empty from Orient way to Witham via Liv St, in service Witham to Liv St, then back to Orient Way).

 

[Alfie1014]

Contract for re-tractioning the first 30 units awarded to Vossloh Kiepe;

http://www.railjournal.com/index.ph...-321-re-tractioning-contract.html?channel=529

BRITISH rolling stock leasing company Eversholt Rail has awarded Vossloh Kiepe a contract to equip 30 four-car class 321 regional EMUs dating from the late 1980s with ac traction motors, new auxiliary systems and new braking systems as part of its Renatus upgrading programme.

Eversholt and Vossloh Kiepe have been working together on a £5.5m project to develop the concept since 2013 and the demonstrator train began dynamic testing at Network Rail's Innovation and Development Centre at Old Dalby near Nottingham this week. The prototype set is due to enter passenger service with Abellio Greater Anglia in the middle of next year.

The retractioning work involves replacement of the main transformer, traction converter, auxilliary power supply, traction motors, and brakes, with improved wheel-slide protection.

Eversholt says it expects retractioning of the class 321s to deliver a 14.9% improvement in tractive effort compared with an unmodified train, which could translate into a four-minute reduction in journey times between London Liverpool Street and Ipswich. The switch to modern ac traction motors is expected to generate an 8% reduction in energy consumption.

 

[captainbigun]

Is that new news? I thought that had been announced a while back.

What the **** is happening with tis Renatus programme as outwardly it appears to be bugger all. I'm still not entirely sure what a fleet of 30 is going to achieve, especially if the new franchise comes along and provides new stock.

 

[swt_passenger]

Is that new news? I thought that had been announced a while back.

What the **** is happening with tis Renatus programme as outwardly it appears to be bugger all. I'm still not entirely sure what a fleet of 30 is going to achieve, especially if the new franchise comes along and provides new stock.

It is up to the owner what they do with their trains - they may have a good idea where else they can use 30 of them.

 

[captainbigun]

It is up to the owner what they do with their trains - they may have a good idea where else they can use 30 of them.

I hadn't realised that.....

 

[D365]

There's options for more units to be refurbished under the current contract. I believe Eversholt intends to have their entire Class 320/321/322 fleet go through the programme eventually.

 

[Dave1987]

Is that new news? I thought that had been announced a while back.

What the **** is happening with tis Renatus programme as outwardly it appears to be bugger all. I'm still not entirely sure what a fleet of 30 is going to achieve, especially if the new franchise comes along and provides new stock.

Highly doubt the next franchise will be ordering a complete new fleet for GEML.

 

[43096]

Is that new news? I thought that had been announced a while back.

What the **** is happening with tis Renatus programme as outwardly it appears to be bugger all. I'm still not entirely sure what a fleet of 30 is going to achieve, especially if the new franchise comes along and provides new stock.

I wonder if the new franchise is the issue. Eversholt may believe they can carry the risk of 30 Renatus units but won't commit to any more until they know if the franchisee actually wants them long term.

With the Northern fleet of 321/322 units up for replacement it seems, the Great Northern 321 fleet being replaced by 700s and Anglia up for re-franchising, Eversholt have risk of not leasing 115 (out of 122) of the 321/322 fleet in the future. Just the 7 sets going to ScotRail signed up long-term currently.

With electrification progress being glacial we're in danger of having a rather large surplus of EMU vehicles. By my reckoning the following fleets become surplus:
- GN 313s (44 x 3-car)
- All 314s (16 x 3-car)
- All 315s (61 x 4-car)
- GN/Overground 317s (26 x 4-car)
- Thameslink 319s (62 x 4-car - how many are signed up elsewhere?)
- GN 321s (13 x 4-car)
- Northern 321s (3 x 4-car)
- Northern 322s (5 x 4-car)

On top of that the LM 319 fleet may well be vulnerable if/when the Northern 323s go to London Midland. There are also 20 x 4-car Class 387s now on order.

I'd suggest it's looking a bit grim for the PEP fleets.

 

[D365]

I'd suggest it's looking a bit grim for the PEP fleets.

The writing is definitely on the wall for the Class 313 (Great Northern), 314 and 507/508 fleets. And if Valley Lines electrification is not completed within the next ten years, I can see the 315s being shredded too.

My hunch is that the Class 321 and 319 units left for reallocation will taken on by operators looking for quick additional operating capacity, e.g. Greater Anglia or Southeastern. But unless we see an increasingly aggressive turnaround in electrification works running to time, it's bye-bye to the Class 317/1s.

 

[Wivenswold]

I agree, it would make financial sense for the new Anglia Franchise to use less types of units so they could take all of the surplus 321's and stick them on WA. That still wouldn't be enough to see of all of the 317s but in time new long-distance EMUs on the Norwich & Ipswich services could release a few more Dusty Bins.

 

[hwl]

Looking at the GA subsidy metrics and comparing it to what First have bid for TPE to get a flavour of what DfT will be looking for financially, it is obvious that the next Anglia franchise will have to increase revenue without substantially increasing costs.
i.e. longer trains with more seats on key profitable peak routes with rising demand.
Traditionally that would have meant any additional cost would not have been new but with borrowing costs low for ROSCOs at the moment the cost of the new stock option is very competitive. The recent "last" electrostar order of 20 units + options suggests 1 ROSCO (Porterbrook) is very confident of finding a home for new stock (And possibly not up North)!

So what realistic options does the next potential franchise have to increase capacity / seats using as much 2nd hand stock as possible?

Replacing the 90s/mk3 rakes (which would need lots of work before 2020 anyway) would require 45x4car EMUs
(for better acceleration, shorter dwell times and more seats etc. ) and even then not all the existing 321 or 360 services are full 12 car length.
As 43096 has pointed out there are 21x 321 or 322s potentially available and only 5 (5car) 360s are potentially available when Heathrow Connect stops (but then they might get a home with on WRATH etc.) So a new stock type on the route would be needed at least partially on GEML services as there aren't enough 321s or 360s available.

Retractioning 30x 321s suggests the ROSCO is certain that at least that number will remain on GEML what ever happens and also probably this is about the number they could complete during the current franchise.

WAML side there will be plenty of 317s available to increase some train lengths and refurb option on the table too.

So GEML new to the route stock options:
MK4s ex East Coast (with a 90)
Refurbed 319s (321 style option on the table too)
New stock

 

[43096]

I agree, it would make financial sense for the new Anglia Franchise to use less types of units so they could take all of the surplus 321's and stick them on WA. That still wouldn't be enough to see of all of the 317s but in time new long-distance EMUs on the Norwich & Ipswich services could release a few more Dusty Bins.

There will be 21 321/322s available from Northern and Great Northern. Greater Anglia currently has 22 317s of the first batch (i.e. not 317/6), so they could simplify the fleet. That said, Greater Anglia probably needs more capacity.

 

[captainbigun]

There will be 21 321/322s available from Northern and Great Northern. Greater Anglia currently has 22 317s of the first batch (i.e. not 317/6), so they could simplify the fleet. That said, Greater Anglia probably needs more capacity.

Yes. Plenty still run as eight in the peaks.

 

[DasLunatic]

Can 317s and 321s couple together? If there are spare 317s on the WAML side, us on the GEML could use the extra capacity.

 

[captainbigun]

Historically yes, but I suspect mods have meant that path is no longer straightforward, plus you then need to train the crews.

 

[Wivenswold]

Can 317s and 321s couple together? If there are spare 317s on the WAML side, us on the GEML could use the extra capacity.

This conversation arose back in my LTS Rail days in a morning production meeting when the burning issue of reducing open door accidents turned to getting sliding door stock to replace the 302's. There was talk of us bidding for the soon-to-be-surplus 322s to run with 317/1s as there were fewer 317s available than the 30+ 302s they were replacing. But the fleet manager was against it as "the 317s can't run with 322s" due to "different coupling systems".

So the 322s were off the agenda as it would add another unit type to the already varied traffic on the line.

 

[D365]

Historically yes, but I suspect mods have meant that path is no longer straightforward...

ScotRail run Class 318/320 units in multiple regularly. If Class 317 refurbishments are to go ahead, could such a capability prove beneficial to Angel Trains and their prospects for future lessors?

 

[Bringback309s]

321's do couple to 317's! Or did...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no9kgyVw-0M

 

[Dave1987]

321's do couple to 317's! Or did...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no9kgyVw-0M

They always have done and still do. They are basically the same trains underneath.

 

[captainbigun]

Well, aside from 317s being mostly GEC and bins being Brush.

 

[Class 170101]

As far as I'm aware the 317 will only be working the 07:29 Witham to Liverpool St. (Works empty from Orient way to Witham via Liv St, in service Witham to Liv St, then back to Orient Way).

Also an evening working, to Witham and an Ipswich return working
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L80535/2015/12/14/advanced
and
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L81233/2015/12/14/advanced
and
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/L81269/2015/12/14/advanced

 

[jopsuk]

Well, aside from 317s being mostly GEC and bins being Brush.

The sensible path rears it's head: retraction (proposed anyway) and refurbish the fleets to have the same equipment and interiors.

Could even go an (expensive) step further and, as proposed for the 319s but not yet followed through as an option, rebuild the cabs of both fleets. Turn them into effectively a single class. But that's probably not that great a benefit

(and further options that would just upset people: get all the 317s, 321s and 322s to GA, heavily refurbished and retractioned, post Class 710 for Overground introduction, and send the 379s and 360s elsewhere)

 

[Dave1987]

Well, aside from 317s being mostly GEC and bins being Brush.

We were taught that underneath they are essentially the same train which is why they can be coupled together.

 

[Wivenswold]

Well, those photos show that the LTS Fleet Manager of the time was either not a fan of 322s or had worries about them working together. He was unequivocal about it. Maybe there's another reason, gearing, power issues etc that would hinder their being used regularly in passenger service.

 

[sheepy1991]

Yes 321's can run coupled to 317's for ECS moves and testing but not in service. The 317 hustler alarms will sound constantly for starters, a massive distraction and headache for anyone involved unless a fitter wedges the relay in place!

As the 322's are near identical to a 321 id imagine it would be the reason for the LTS fleet manager to have declined the idea