Wag 2 67s

[anthony263]

See link....seems there was a tender process.

http://www.publictenders.net/tender/92111

Hopefully up to Chiltern / X-Country standard!!

Could be in warm storage somewhere? The other bits are ready!!

I look forwrad to a trip on these MK3's if they do enter service.

 

[TDK]

Route learning is happening in earnest, then...


Andy

The drivers already sign the routes it's the traction they don't sign
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Painted in ATW/WAG dark turquoise? If so, I assume that's all three locos done then, no more to be painted? Will there be three DVTs as well as three locos (so enough for two push-pull trains with a spare set)?

Is there any word on mark3s, or are the existing WAG express mrk2 + mrk3 buffet rakes to be used with the 67s?

You cannot use any existing stock with 67's & DVT's unless they have been converted, thats Mk2's or Mk3's - Mk2's would not be permitted with the DVT's/67's anyway and why use the Mk2's when the Mk3' are far superior?

 

[jones_bangor]

You cannot use any existing stock with 67's & DVT's unless they have been converted, thats Mk2's or Mk3's - Mk2's would not be permitted with the DVT's/67's anyway and why use the Mk2's when the Mk3' are far superior?

The Mk2s are a bit worn out now....the sliding doors on the end of the carriages not working etc...nevertheless, rather be on a Mk2 for 4 hours than a 158....

Looking forward to the Mk3s, should be a pleasure to travel from North to South....

 

[TDK]

The Mk2s are a bit worn out now....the sliding doors on the end of the carriages not working etc...nevertheless, rather be on a Mk2 for 4 hours than a 158....

Looking forward to the Mk3s, should be a pleasure to travel from North to South....

Did you realise Jones the general passenger really does not know what train is what and they would travel in a 158 and then a mk3 and only know it is a different train coz the doors need to be opened manually, I have had passengers trying to get on a sandite train before with no doors on it and also standing there bemused when I took a DVT and Loco for postioning with no coaches on it at all! It is only the enthusiasts that can tell a 150 from a 158 the travelling public really don't give a damn as long as they get to their destination

 

[Gareth Marston]

Did you realise Jones the general passenger really does not know what train is what and they would travel in a 158 and then a mk3 and only know it is a different train coz the doors need to be opened manually, I have had passengers trying to get on a sandite train before with no doors on it and also standing there bemused when I took a DVT and Loco for postioning with no coaches on it at all! It is only the enthusiasts that can tell a 150 from a 158 the travelling public really don't give a damn as long as they get to their destination

I find the moulded seats on the WAG 1 Mk2's less comfortable than the seats on the 175's and refurbished 158's. Though the greater % of tables a bonus.

I see plenty of passengers banging away on the door buttons before they light up every day.

 

[Rhydgaled]

You cannot use any existing stock with 67's & DVT's unless they have been converted, thats Mk2's or Mk3's - Mk2's would not be permitted with the DVT's/67's anyway and why use the Mk2's when the Mk3' are far superior?

Well, if they don't have mrk3s then (since ATW do have mrk2s) they would have to use mrk2s instead. Are mrk2s not allowed to run with mrk3 DVTs, even if the mrk2s are modified?

I know coaches need to be through-wired for 67 + coaches + DVT working, but I've heard on fourms in the past that the ATW mrk2s are through-wired with a class 37 multiple-working system for top&tail services. Assuming both the 67 and 37 multiple-working systems are based on sending electrical signals down a wire then surely all that would need to be done to ATW mrk2s is change the plugs/sockets on the ends of the coaches from the 37 ones to 67 ones (using the same through cabling). There might be something wrong with my assuptions there, but if so what is it?

Did you realise Jones the general passenger really does not know what train is what and they would travel in a 158 and then a mk3 and only know it is a different train coz the doors need to be opened manually, I have had passengers trying to get on a sandite train before with no doors on it and also standing there bemused when I took a DVT and Loco for postioning with no coaches on it at all! It is only the enthusiasts that can tell a 150 from a 158 the travelling public really don't give a damn as long as they get to their destination

General passengers might well not tell DMUs apart (years ago, before I lived in Wales, even I didn't notice there were two different classes of 'lesser Sprinter' (153 and 150) operating with Wales & West (didn't know the class numbers then either, I could tell a class 158 (Alphaline) was different rolling stock to the lesser Sprinters though). That said, I think a passenger who had just come off a 158 (or any lesser Sprinter, perhaps even a 175) would probably notice the lack of engine noise if they boarded a LHCS train.

 

[jones_bangor]

Did you realise Jones the general passenger really does not know what train is what and they would travel in a 158 and then a mk3 and only know it is a different train coz the doors need to be opened manually, I have had passengers trying to get on a sandite train before with no doors on it and also standing there bemused when I took a DVT and Loco for postioning with no coaches on it at all! It is only the enthusiasts that can tell a 150 from a 158 the travelling public really don't give a damn as long as they get to their destination

.....and that they have a seat!!
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Well, if they don't have mrk3s then (since ATW do have mrk2s) they would have to use mrk2s instead. Are mrk2s not allowed to run with mrk3 DVTs, even if the mrk2s are modified?

I know coaches need to be through-wired for 67 + coaches + DVT working, but I've heard on fourms in the past that the ATW mrk2s are through-wired with a class 37 multiple-working system for top&tail services. Assuming both the 67 and 37 multiple-working systems are based on sending electrical signals down a wire then surely all that would need to be done to ATW mrk2s is change the plugs/sockets on the ends of the coaches from the 37 ones to 67 ones (using the same through cabling). There might be something wrong with my assuptions there, but if so what is it?

Mk2s used to work with Mk3 DVTs on the WCML.

 

[Hydro]

I know coaches need to be through-wired for 67 + coaches + DVT working, but I've heard on fourms in the past that the ATW mrk2s are through-wired with a class 37 multiple-working system for top&tail services. Assuming both the 67 and 37 multiple-working systems are based on sending electrical signals down a wire then surely all that would need to be done to ATW mrk2s is change the plugs/sockets on the ends of the coaches from the 37 ones to 67 ones (using the same through cabling). There might be something wrong with my assuptions there, but if so what is it?

.

There is something wrong, and that is generally the number of wires within the cable. Cl.37 use Blue Star. That is a two part system, electrical and pneumatic (electrical for electrical systems, pneumatic for the engine). The electric side of things is a number of wires in a cable (I can't remember how many in Blue Star), with each wire having a specific electrical function (engine start, stop, sand, fire bell etc). Cl.67 use AAR standard, which is purely electrical IIRC. I don't know how the AAR system works, how many wires it needs in the cable or such, but it'd need an equal number or less to be able to be passed through Blue Star cabling.

Adaptors are not beyond the ken of railway operations, we use them to pass SR MU signals through Blue Star cabling when working 73's on our Blue Star cabled stock. I gather they're similar, but the wires are used in a different order.

 

[jones_bangor]

I think the issue about the Mk 2s is academic - it does seem that approx. £2 M was put aside by ATW to obtain / refurbish 2 x rakes of Mk3s.

 

[TDK]

.....and that they have a seat!!
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Mk2s used to work with Mk3 DVTs on the WCML.

Yes but not with 67's the sets on the WCML the control circuits were through the TDM this is not possible with 67's
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I think the issue about the Mk 2s is academic - it does seem that approx. £2 M was put aside by ATW to obtain / refurbish 2 x rakes of Mk3s.

As earlier quoted, the DVT's need to be refurbed, rewired, OTDR fitted, sanders and WSP, the 67's need to have fire precautions and the coaches need to be wired through to run with the 67's electrical connections, why bother refurbing Mk2's when Mk3's are avaialble? Anyway it seems that ATW are no where near delivering Mk3's and DVT's that actually work with the 67's in the near future so maybe it's a pipe dream

 

[SprinterMan]

I was speaking to a member of ATW's train presentation team WAG1 earlier in the week and he said that 67s would be coming in in March, and that the Mark 2s need wiring modifications to work with the DVTs, so Mark 3s may be used. It seems a shame to waste the Refurb'ed mark 2s by storing them and refurbing mark 3s and spending more momney, but I guess that's progress. These are the last non-scotrail Mark 2s in schedueled service are they not?

 

[anthony263]

I would have prefered that they use the MK2 rakes to boost capacity elsewhere, pity the WG wont fund a peak hour loco hauled service on the Rhymney line again or perhaps to provide an extra service to Swansea in the peaks.

As for the MK3 rakes I suspect these could be osm eof the ones that DB have in store or perhaps we could see one of the chiltern rakes used until some have been painted into ATW colours?

 

[SprinterMan]

I would have prefered that they use the MK2 rakes to boost capacity elsewhere, pity the WG wont fund a peak hour loco hauled service on the Rhymney line again or perhaps to provide an extra service to Swansea in the peaks.

As for the MK3 rakes I suspect these could be osm eof the ones that DB have in store or perhaps we could see one of the chiltern rakes used until some have been painted into ATW colours?

I think DB bought all of Cargo-D's Mark 3s when they went bust so I assume they will be used.

 

[Rhydgaled]

why bother refurbing Mk2's when Mk3's are avaialble?

Certainly if mark 3s are available and do not require any more work than the mark 2s there is probably no reason to refurb the mrk2s.

Anyway it seems that ATW are no where near delivering Mk3's and DVT's that actually work with the 67's in the near future so maybe it's a pipe dream

We know there are three 67s and one DVT in ATW livery, and I think the DVT is numbered in the series used for DVTs that can work with 67s so (apart from the fact that coaches to go between the 67 and DVT haven't appeared) 67s and DVTs on ATW services doesn't look like a pipe dream anymore.

I would have prefered that they use the MK2 rakes to boost capacity elsewhere, pity the WG wont fund a peak hour loco hauled service on the Rhymney line again or perhaps to provide an extra service to Swansea in the peaks.

Personally I'd like to see all ATW's mark 2s (not just the 6 refurbed WAG liveried examples) pressed into service on some of the busiest Manchester to Swansea and/or Llandudno services to create some slack in the 175 fleet to avoid 150/153 units appearing on long-distance services and perhaps help get the 3-car 175s on the busiest non-LHCS services. Alternatively (or a compromise between the two) the mark2s should be on standby for use when ANY special event occours that results in an unusally large passenger flow (the only special event trains are Holyhead - Cardiff rugex at the moment as far as I know, while the LHCS sits idle when a festival in Pembrokeshire leaves passengers sitting on Pembrey & Burry Port and Llanelli platforms and rugby in Cardiff could use rugex trains to Pembrokeshire as well as north Wales).

 

[jones_bangor]

I was speaking to a member of ATW's train presentation team WAG1 earlier in the week and he said that 67s would be coming in in March, and that the Mark 2s need wiring modifications to work with the DVTs, so Mark 3s may be used. It seems a shame to waste the Refurb'ed mark 2s by storing them and refurbing mark 3s and spending more momney, but I guess that's progress. These are the last non-scotrail Mark 2s in schedueled service are they not?

The mark 2s aren't in great condition. Carriage end doors no longer work, I think they were refreshed, not fully refurbed. Nevertheless, it'll be a travesty if they're just left to rot in the sidings at Canton, they remain good enough for some kind of service...maybe WAG 3 - Aberystwyth - Cardiff?

We know there are three 67s and one DVT in ATW livery, and I think the DVT is numbered in the series used for DVTs that can work with 67s so (apart from the fact that coaches to go between the 67 and DVT haven't appeared) 67s and DVTs on ATW services doesn't look like a pipe dream anymore.

Exactly...I read elsewhere that ATW 67s had the pre-requisite controls and remote fire suppression equipment fitted.

Anyway it seems that ATW are no where near delivering Mk3's and DVT's that actually work with the 67's in the near future so maybe it's a pipe dream

I don't understand what are you going on about? The DVTs are at Cardiff already....the driver training is taking place, there are refurbed Mk3s / Mk3s being refurbed.....

IT'S HAPPENING, and no, that DVT in Cardiff Central in ATW wasn't photoshopped!!

 

[TDK]

The mark 2s aren't in great condition. Carriage end doors no longer work, I think they were refreshed, not fully refurbed. Nevertheless, it'll be a travesty if they're just left to rot in the sidings at Canton, they remain good enough for some kind of service...maybe WAG 3 - Aberystwyth - Cardiff?



Exactly...I read elsewhere that ATW 67s had the pre-requisite controls and remote fire suppression equipment fitted.


I don't understand what are you going on about? The DVTs are at Cardiff already....the driver training is taking place, there are refurbed Mk3s / Mk3s being refurbed.....

IT'S HAPPENING, and no, that DVT in Cardiff Central in ATW wasn't photoshopped!!

Yes, but I have heard that the DVT that has been refurbed needs to go back as it has been wired through the TDM and does not talk to the 67 at the moment, WAG has paid a lot of money for these trains and as yet not one coach is ready and no one has seen the DVT attached to a 67 for the driver training, the training is just as time consuming on a DVT as it is on a 67 so logically they should have been done at the same time, you cannot train a driver on handling without the coaches attached as light loco is totally different handling wise than training drivers on a set with coaches and DVT! So it isn't currently happening is it?

 

[jones_bangor]

Yes, but I have heard that the DVT that has been refurbed needs to go back as it has been wired through the TDM and does not talk to the 67 at the moment, WAG has paid a lot of money for these trains and as yet not one coach is ready and no one has seen the DVT attached to a 67 for the driver training, the training is just as time consuming on a DVT as it is on a 67 so logically they should have been done at the same time, you cannot train a driver on handling without the coaches attached as light loco is totally different handling wise than training drivers on a set with coaches and DVT! So it isn't currently happening is it?

Teething trouble!!

 

[TDK]

Teething trouble!!

Well their dentist should be struck off because he aint no good - joking apart how can you say teething trouble when there is no sign of any sets even in the distant future let alone by December gone as promised, it is an utter shambles and the money should be given back with the service ceased immediately

 

[jones_bangor]

Well their dentist should be struck off because he aint no good - joking apart how can you say teething trouble when there is no sign of any sets even in the distant future let alone by December gone as promised, it is an utter shambles and the money should be given back with the service ceased immediately

I'm assuming the bits are ready. Just putting them together is the hard part.

ATW have spent the cash, I don't think there'd be any to hand back......

 

[TDK]

I'm assuming the bits are ready. Just putting them together is the hard part.

ATW have spent the cash, I don't think there'd be any to hand back......

You can never assume on the railway we did that in our training, I think the public has a right to know that this money has been spent and also on what it has been spent on. There is no evidence that any coaches have been renovated, that the DVT's work with the locos or a date written in stone when this service will start.

 

[Rhydgaled]

You can never assume on the railway we did that in our training, I think the public has a right to know that this money has been spent and also on what it has been spent on. There is no evidence that any coaches have been renovated, that the DVT's work with the locos or a date written in stone when this service will start.

Well, since 67s have appeared on training runs and a DVT has appeared in Cardiff it seemed (aside from the lack of coaching stock) to an outsider like me that the claims of 67s in service from March were realistic. However now you say the DVT has problems, this will likely delay the second (and third? is there a third planned?) DVTs so it doesn't look like 67+DVT service will happen in March anymore. Maybe a single 67 on WAG1, but if the DVT doesn't work right I expect we won't see DVTs on ATW services for a while longer.

Given there are a number of 67 compatible DVTs already, how did they manage to do this one wrong?

 

[TDK]

Well, since 67s have appeared on training runs and a DVT has appeared in Cardiff it seemed (aside from the lack of coaching stock) to an outsider like me that the claims of 67s in service from March were realistic. However now you say the DVT has problems, this will likely delay the second (and third? is there a third planned?) DVTs so it doesn't look like 67+DVT service will happen in March anymore. Maybe a single 67 on WAG1, but if the DVT doesn't work right I expect we won't see DVTs on ATW services for a while longer.

Given there are a number of 67 compatible DVTs already, how did they manage to do this one wrong?

This is only what I have been told and maybe false information however looking at the facts there has not been any training on DVT's/MK3 coaching stock as yet unless it is in the classroom. If they have got it wrong whoever is in charge of the project must have very rosy cheeks as this combination of 67/Mk3/DVT has now been running sucessfully for a long time as the EWS company train had this combination, WSMR did their training using this EWS company train now owned by DB shenker - it just seems that no homework has been done on the project to me.

The training needs are as follows:

1 Handling for the drivers for the loco/DVT/Mk3 Combination
2. Training for the drivers including prep, F & F and assistance procedures
3. training for the guards on the operation of both the DVT's and the coaching stock
4. Passing out all the above for their competence.

You can only realistically do 3 drivers a week for the training and probably 6 guards and this is a huge workload for the trainers assessors - as we have not seen wither the EWS company train or an ATW rake as yet it seems that the training has not yet commenced. Training on just the 67's will allow the staff to operate a WAG service with 67's but not the DVT's this can be done top & tail but ATW will need to get permission to run without a brake van from NR on a temporary basis unless they put a Mk2 brake in the rake.

 

[jones_bangor]

This is only what I have been told and maybe false information however looking at the facts there has not been any training on DVT's/MK3 coaching stock as yet unless it is in the classroom. If they have got it wrong whoever is in charge of the project must have very rosy cheeks as this combination of 67/Mk3/DVT has now been running sucessfully for a long time as the EWS company train had this combination, WSMR did their training using this EWS company train now owned by DB shenker - it just seems that no homework has been done on the project to me.

The training needs are as follows:

1 Handling for the drivers for the loco/DVT/Mk3 Combination
2. Training for the drivers including prep, F & F and assistance procedures
3. training for the guards on the operation of both the DVT's and the coaching stock
4. Passing out all the above for their competence.

You can only realistically do 3 drivers a week for the training and probably 6 guards and this is a huge workload for the trainers assessors - as we have not seen wither the EWS company train or an ATW rake as yet it seems that the training has not yet commenced. Training on just the 67's will allow the staff to operate a WAG service with 67's but not the DVT's this can be done top & tail but ATW will need to get permission to run without a brake van from NR on a temporary basis unless they put a Mk2 brake in the rake.

It does beg the question - why not hire in the EWS company train for driver training!!?? Or am I missing something!?

 

[TDK]

It does beg the question - why not hire in the EWS company train for driver training!!?? Or am I missing something!?

Because it it is very expensive to hire most likely

 

[jones_bangor]

Because it it is very expensive to hire most likely

ATW better get the voltage meters out then.

 

[Michael.Y]

Because it it is very expensive to hire most likely

Wouldn't they technically be hiring them from themselves? (Both have the same parent company, so it's just money moving sideways within the same organisation)

 

[TDK]

Wouldn't they technically be hiring them from themselves? (Both have the same parent company, so it's just money moving sideways within the same organisation)

Put it this way, the 67's are leased by DBS and then hired to ATW, the coaches are owned by DBA and hired to ATW, the DVT's are owned by DBA and hired to ATW obvoiously monies have to be passed from one to another for the hiring of stock in fact ATW lease the 175's and hired one to themselves:roll:

CRCL, WSMR & ATW will/did have to pay hire costs for the vehicles and locos including the company train that will come with a trainer (extra cost) it is a very expensive business.

 

[jones_bangor]

Put it this way, the 67's are leased by DBS and then hired to ATW, the coaches are owned by DBA and hired to ATW, the DVT's are owned by DBA and hired to ATW obvoiously monies have to be passed from one to another for the hiring of stock in fact ATW lease the 175's and hired one to themselves:roll:

CRCL, WSMR & ATW will/did have to pay hire costs for the vehicles and locos including the company train that will come with a trainer (extra cost) it is a very expensive business.

Well at least it's an option if they can't get the 67 + DVT combo working soon.

 

[Minilad]

Passed 67002 twice today. Once in Newport station and then once again between Lydney and Gloucester. A number of bods in the cab so maybe traction training runs

 

[TDK]

Well at least it's an option if they can't get the 67 + DVT combo working soon.

If they are not willing to spend on top and tail they surely won't want to spend on the EWS company train
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Passed 67002 twice today. Once in Newport station and then once again between Lydney and Gloucester. A number of bods in the cab so maybe traction training runs

I do not see the point in doing the traction for a light engine 67, that handling surely will not be adequate, I have driven 67 light loco and also with coaches and DVT and to be honest it is a waste of time and money training the drivers on the 67's on their own