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WAG Express discussion

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Greenback

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I don't think I suggested it was a simple matter.

Fair point!

What I was suggesting was that there is demand for travel between Liverpool and Wales and that if the curve at Halton were to be doubled (or bi-directional) then you wouldn't go to that expense just to provide Chester with a fifth train an hour into Liverpool, you'd do so to provide a direct Liverpool service to Wrexham/ Rhyl etc.

There is probbaly some demand for travel between Liverpool and North Wales, yes. But there were not many through trains in BR days for whatever reason. Is there any evidence on whether through services would attract a lot more traffic on to the railway that is currently put off by a change of train?

I don't want to sound too negative, as I am not a massive fan of the WAG Express and I do think that services from the North Wales Coast should be more geared to places other than Cardiff and Birmingham.

At the same time, I would suggest that Liverpool has declined in importance compared to Manchester, and I would question whether through trains to Liverpool would make any more commercial sense in reality than the through trains to Cardiff.
 
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D1009

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Perhaps there was, however timetables of the 1950's have little relevance to today's railway.

My point being that the Halton Curve route has never been important to North Wales. In todays scenario: Merseyrail offers 4 trains an hour from Chester to Liverpool. As well as serving 4 stations in Liverpool, it also serves 2 major ones in Birkenhead.

A reopened route to Liverpool via the curve will only offer, at best, an hourly service, this will most certainly not be operated by Arriva. It will be a Chester - Liverpool service. It's reopening offers no benefits and has little relevance to North Wales at all.

I concur, the vast majority of people travelling between the North Wales coast and Liverpool have changed at Chester, even before Chester-Rock Ferry was electrified. I suppose the point is that if the Halton curve were reinstated, could a case be made today for a through service using it.

To come back on topic, as far as the section of line between Holyhead and Llandudno Jn is concerned, I don’t think the current destinations of the services reflect where most of the people actually want to go. There certainly is a case for at least one or two of the trains to run to Manchester.

I would hope that if and when the WAG express service runs via Wrexham, then the 0511 Holyhead to Birmingham could be diverted via Crewe and Stafford to improve its journey time.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I don't think that is entirly correct. Investment in rail infrastructure is NOT devolved. WAG can spend money on rail, for example the class 158 refurbishment, but I don't know where that money came from. If rail infrastructure spending was devolved, WAG would be given a slice of taxaition revenue for that by Westminister, but it is not devolved. This is why they are having to have discussions with the Westminister government over electrification to Swansea and the ValleyLines, if rail infrastructure spending was devolved it would be WAG's responsibility to pay for electrification in Wales.

This is true.
The recent Rail Review details that DfT retains UK-wide responsibility for rail strategy and all cross-border services, which are the ones were are talking about.
The WG gets to manage much of the spend and is perfectly entitled to lobby for changes, but I think some of this responsibility is for ATW routes in England as well as Wales.
ie the WG interest/responsibility does not end at Saltney or Rodney's Pillar.

On routes to Liverpool, maybe people forget the daily peak-time through trains from North Wales to Birkenhead Woodside, avoiding Chester on the triangle (non-stop Rhyl to Hooton).
That gave a much shorter journey time to Liverpool (via ferry or underground) than the Runcorn route, which was mostly used in the summer.

I think ATW would have little problem running to Liverpool from Crewe if they wanted to, as this was a regular route until privatisation.
 

Gwenllian2001

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I don't think that is entirly correct. Investment in rail infrastructure is NOT devolved. WAG can spend money on rail, for example the class 158 refurbishment, but I don't know where that money came from. If rail infrastructure spending was devolved, WAG would be given a slice of taxaition revenue for that by Westminister, but it is not devolved. This is why they are having to have discussions with the Westminister government over electrification to Swansea and the ValleyLines, if rail infrastructure spending was devolved it would be WAG's responsibility to pay for electrification in Wales.

I admit that this a complicated issue but I think you will find that the Railways Act 2005 provides for payments towards infrastructure by the Welsh Government. The re-opening to Ebbw Vale was financed from various sources including European Objective One, Steel Regeneration Fund, The County Council and The Welsh Government. A similar situation applied to the Vale of Glamorgan line. The Welsh Government is also responsible for the payment to Arriva Trains Wales as a result of the 2005 Railways Act.

If the proposed extension of services from Aberdare to Hirwaun goes ahead, that too will be financed by the Welsh Government.

As for the 'WAG Express', I can only express my gratitude for a 'proper train'. Such a change from the horrible 142 cast offs we have to put up with on local services.
 

ainsworth74

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As for the 'WAG Express', I can only express my gratitude for a 'proper train'. Such a change from the horrible 142 cast offs we have to put up with on local services.

Not that 142s actually run services comparable with Holyhead - Cardiff (also don't forget that it isn't just ATW that has to put up with 142s).
 

Gareth

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At the same time, I would suggest that Liverpool has declined in importance compared to Manchester, and I would question whether through trains to Liverpool would make any more commercial sense in reality than the through trains to Cardiff.

Oh right, that old chestnut. If Manchester's more important that Liverpool then that's purely because it's Whitehall's designated regional capital for its North West administrative region. The whole 'nations and regions' crap has totally screwed Liverpool and not allowed it to compete with Manchester and even smaller places such as Cardiff. That wasn't always the case and it need not always be the case. Liverpool deserves better. And a good start to turning it around would be to establish links with nearby towns in North Wales that more distant cities, such as Manchester, Birmingham & Cardiff. But hey, they have BBC regional news programmes so they're all clearly so important.
 

Greenback

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Oh right, that old chestnut. If Manchester's more important that Liverpool then that's purely because it's Whitehall's designated regional capital for its North West administrative region. The whole 'nations and regions' crap has totally screwed Liverpool and not allowed it to compete with Manchester and even smaller places such as Cardiff. That wasn't always the case and it need not always be the case. Liverpool deserves better. And a good start to turning it around would be to establish links with nearby towns in North Wales that more distant cities, such as Manchester, Birmingham & Cardiff. But hey, they have BBC regional news programmes so they're all clearly so important.

It may be old,. it may be chestnut coloured, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Swansea was once far more important than Cardiff. It isn't any more. Perhaps it would have been if different decisions were made in the past. who knows? Same with Liverpool.

Anyway, this is all getting very off topic.
 

Michael.Y

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Anyway, this is all getting very off topic.

Pardon the cynicism, but what IS the topic here? A LHS train service from Holyhead to Cardiff? Wales vs England? North West England vs South East Wales? Tories vs Labour/Plaid? Liverpool vs Manchester?

It's got a bit lost along the way methinks.
 

Greenback

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Pardon the cynicism, but what IS the topic here? A LHS train service from Holyhead to Cardiff? Wales vs England? North West England vs South East Wales? Tories vs Labour/Plaid? Liverpool vs Manchester?

It's got a bit lost along the way methinks.

Yes, it probably has. But there were once several threads running about the WAG Express, and it was requested that they be merged. There should only be discussions about the ATW Premier service.

Perhaps it is time to close this one now?
 

Wolfie

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You answered my question as I suspected. Take from Wales and give to England. If there were no Welsh Assembly, I suspect we'd have lost our 175s to bolster TPE or some other deserving route in England already*. These would probably have been replaced with some worn our rubbish in exchange.

* e.g. Let's imagine Governor General Redwood's take on this.

Damages the Welsh cause? What do you mean by that, that we're refusing to be subservient push-overs for our English masters? And how dare we have the temerity to run 2 extra trains a day between North Wales and the capital Cardiff.

I have been watching your comments, as another Salopian with generally pro-Welsh views, with increasing bemusement.

All I will say is that your attitude prompts a response in similarly pejorative terms. I will thus say that the Welsh are not too subservient to refuse to allow English taxpayers to pay for the sad vain-glorious WAG follies! Go independent, and see how Wales a post-industrial state with very few obvious sources of income, would fare.....
 
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