WAG Express discussion

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Gareth Marston

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it's Padeswood that is used for the coal traffic, not Penyffordd. A trailing connection on the down line, with the empties going to Dee Marsh to run round. The other line at Penyffordd is the stub of the connection to the Mold line, last used early 90's?

With North Wales resaignalling in the pipeline I get a bit concerned about the future of the connection to Mostyn Docks. Not used at the moment but the source/destination of much traffic in the past.
We had a thread that discussed the singling of the Mainde Curve. Cant see any more traffic using it said a Network Rail contributor - new log flow to Kronopsan announced last week will. Those that take out rail infrastructure don't having a particular good crystal ball.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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it's Padeswood that is used for the coal traffic, not Penyffordd. A trailing connection on the down line, with the empties going to Dee Marsh to run round. The other line at Penyffordd is the stub of the connection to the Mold line, last used early 90's?
Well what's the problem with plain-lining Penyffordd if nobody's used it for 20 years and there is no traffic in prospect?

They will still need the SB for Padeswood anyway, won't they?
 

Penmorfa

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Well what's the problem with plain-lining Penyffordd if nobody's used it for 20 years and there is no traffic in prospect?

They will still need the SB for Padeswood anyway, won't they?
No, it's a ground frame released from the box. It could just as easily be released from Croes Newydd. The box is needed to run the passenger service though.
 

The Informer

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We had a thread that discussed the singling of the Mainde Curve. Cant see any more traffic using it said a Network Rail contributor - new log flow to Kronopsan announced last week will. Those that take out rail infrastructure don't having a particular good crystal ball.




I'm the last one to agree on infrastructure being removed.
 
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The Planner

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We had a thread that discussed the singling of the Mainde Curve. Cant see any more traffic using it said a Network Rail contributor - new log flow to Kronopsan announced last week will. Those that take out rail infrastructure don't having a particular good crystal ball.
That'll be me, and that new flow makes sod all difference, unless by some miracle something wants to use the curve in the reverse direction at the same time then it isn't a problem.
 

Gareth Marston

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"Events" show that no one can be certain on any particular course and as we all know once something gets removed the bill for putting it back gets beyond instantly affordable and nothing happens.

BR had a plan in the early/mid 80's to single all the lines approaching Shrewsbury (Wellington,Church Stretton, Gobowen and Wem) which thankfully never happened. No doubt the person(s) proposing it couldn't see the need for double track.

1 extra timber train a week probably wont be the straw that breaks the camels back but get a customer who wants their flow at a different time to today and a couple of extra customers then who knows?
 

merlodlliw

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in this weeks http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

plus New timetable controversy by Charlie Hume who reports

"We'll stay out of this argument, but we have question for regular users: are hot meals of some kind on the loco-hauled service actually made available to standard-class passengers if the staff have the time?"

his quote if the staff have the time is interesting,


Bob
 

The Planner

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1 extra timber train a week probably wont be the straw that breaks the camels back but get a customer who wants their flow at a different time to today and a couple of extra customers then who knows?
30 trains a day use the North to East chord, that is 1¼ trains per hour, things are not going to get in a calamitous state if someone wants a couple of extra trains.
 

Bakers1970

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in this weeks http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm

plus New timetable controversy by Charlie Hume who reports

"We'll stay out of this argument, but we have question for regular users: are hot meals of some kind on the loco-hauled service actually made available to standard-class passengers if the staff have the time?"

his quote if the staff have the time is interesting,


Bob
To put this to bed once and for all... I would suggest that when you are onboard passenger counting in 1st Class you ask the on board staff and I am 100% certain the reply will be "certainly Sir what what would you like"?

A tad incorrectly reporting by the article writer there I'm afraid.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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To put this to bed once and for all... I would suggest that when you are onboard passenger counting in 1st Class you ask the on board staff and I am 100% certain the reply will be "certainly Sir what what would you like"?
I managed to get a bacon roll from the buffet on my last trip south on Gerald, but there was no "hot" menu and it wasn't clear what was available.
 

merlodlliw

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I managed to get a bacon roll from the buffet on my last trip south on Gerald, but there was no "hot" menu and it wasn't clear what was available.
I also travelled on 3rd November in standard & confirm no hot menu on display in the buffet. I asked what was on offer hot to eat & was told,bacon roll or toast, this was on the up.

Bob
 

jones_bangor

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I also travelled on 3rd November in standard & confirm no hot menu on display in the buffet. I asked what was on offer hot to eat & was told,bacon roll or toast, this was on the up.

Bob
Hang on...whenever I've been on Gerald northbound Menus are available in standard, presumably offering what those in First are enjoying (but at a price of course!). That must have been an exception....NOT THE RULE!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
To put this to bed once and for all... I would suggest that when you are onboard passenger counting in 1st Class you ask the on board staff and I am 100% certain the reply will be "certainly Sir what what would you like"?
He he he....envious First Class counting comes to mind? Do the First Class counters do it when travelling with Virgin too?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
67003 has just gone down past Prestatyn light engine, so it looks like crew training has now started on the 67's
Sounds more and more like it'll be a 67 at each end.
 

Gareth Marston

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The price tag will be in excess of £2 million with a pair of 67's. That's the annual lease cost of 8 2 car Class 158 units.

I can think of several areas where more stock is needed in ATW franchise. Passengers at Bridgend last Saturday were refused entry to a 2 car 175 that came in from West Wales so full was it.
 

jones_bangor

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The price tag will be in excess of £2 million with a pair of 67's. That's the annual lease cost of 8 2 car Class 158 units.

I can think of several areas where more stock is needed in ATW franchise. Passengers at Bridgend last Saturday were refused entry to a 2 car 175 that came in from West Wales so full was it.
That much more than running any other train?

Clearly yourself and Merlodlliw are dead against this service.

Personally, I think this sort of service is vital in the nation building that Labour (and Plaid) have been undertaking....North - South links are key.

I wish there were better links and more capacity elsewhere, at least this service shows the way forward instead of Tory (and Libcon) like cuts, and delivers the mainly socialist people in Wales what they want.
 
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Gareth Marston

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That much more than running any other train?

Clearly yourself and Merlodlliw are dead against this service.

Personally, I think this sort of service is vital in the nation building that Labour (and Plaid) have been undertaking....North - South links are key.

I wish there were better links and more capacity elsewhere, at least this service shows the way forward instead of Tory (and Libcon) like cuts, and delivers the mainly socialist people in Wales what they want.
Not dead against just aware of the reality of the opportunity costs this service represents. Leasing 16 extra 158 carriages or 26 if 150 can do one hell of a lot more. Follow the money. Yeah 20 years ago BR didn't have monopoly money charges for LHCS but the reality is the railway does now and as soon as you do one thing the comparisons with what you could be doing with that £ soon start. I've always lived in the real world not in socialist or Thatcherite idealism's. Gerald is a very expensive play toy. All very well if you have the money.

My take on north to south is that John Davies had it right years ago 3 Express DMU's a day - at the right time are sufficient for the actual market. Not 10 increasingly all stops DMU's and Gerald.
 

Rhydgaled

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I managed to get a bacon roll from the buffet on my last trip south on Gerald, but there was no "hot" menu and it wasn't clear what was available.
Hang on...whenever I've been on Gerald northbound Menus are available in standard, presumably offering what those in First are enjoying (but at a price of course!). That must have been an exception....NOT THE RULE!!
Neither the exception nor the rule I think. Last time I used the northbound (I've never caught the southbound), back in the summer holidays, I asked to see a menu and was told the menus had been thrown off at Holyhead (I assume the previous evening) and not replaced with new ones. I seem to remember I was offered (verbally, but it still wasn't very clear what was available) toasties, wedges or something else but nothing that sounded like a full meal (I was hopeing for Fish and Chips). Not sure if it First class passengers had more luck or were just as unable to get a full meal as me in standard.

Sounds more and more like it'll be a 67 at each end.
Via Wrexham? Top&Tail is daft if it isn't.

The price tag will be in excess of £2 million with a pair of 67's. That's the annual lease cost of 8 2 car Class 158 units.
But that £2m would include maintenance, track access etc. wouldn't it? so you can't really compare that with just the leasing cost of a multiple unit. I agree that alot more needs to be done on other routes now though, and the sooner the WAG expresses stop using franchise units (ie. the WAG2 175) the better.

Personally, I think this sort of service is vital in the nation building that Labour (and Plaid) have been undertaking....North - South links are key.

I wish there were better links and more capacity elsewhere, at least this service shows the way forward instead of Tory (and Libcon) like cuts, and delivers the mainly socialist people in Wales what they want.
I agree with you that a couple of north-south express trains (not going in the same direction like now though) is a good idea. BUT these expresses shouldn't be wasting franchise units and the stock used should work Swansea/Holyhead-Manchester services to free up 158s and 175s between the Swansea-Holyhead runs.

The real scandal is Iuean Air, they should put that money into Cambrian main-line hourly and, if it will strech far enough, express class 158 services between Cardiff and Carmarthen/Milford/Fishguard (including current daytime boat train) via the Swansea District Line. That article quoted in NW-Rail news should have been critising the air-link escaping the cuts, not the train. BBC news TV reports on the recent climate change confrence seemed to be implying that Europe was trying to pursuade the USA and China to sign up, but our governments hardly set a good example do they? Nope, they are subsidising the less-enviromentally friendly modes of transport like air and road! There's Iuean Air for one, but Westminster are at least as guilty, as one example the fuel-duty reduction in Mr Osborne's autum statement was apparently costing over twice as much as the reduction from RPI+3% to RPI+1% on rail fares. If they want to be green, why couldn't they have made rail fares RPI+0 instead and given a smaller (or no) reduction in fuel duty for motorists? I won't start on road-building, I've wandered far enough from the topic already.
 

The Informer

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"Events" show that no one can be certain on any particular course and as we all know once something gets removed the bill for putting it back gets beyond instantly affordable and nothing happens.

BR had a plan in the early/mid 80's to single all the lines approaching Shrewsbury (Wellington,Church Stretton, Gobowen and Wem) which thankfully never happened. No doubt the person(s) proposing it couldn't see the need for double track.

1 extra timber train a week probably wont be the straw that breaks the camels back but get a customer who wants their flow at a different time to today and a couple of extra customers then who knows?
The only reason the singling didn't happen was because British Steel played an ace card.It was all very political.


 

Rhydgaled

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My take on north to south is that John Davies had it right years ago 3 Express DMU's a day - at the right time are sufficient for the actual market. Not 10 increasingly all stops DMU's and Gerald.
I'd agree that two or three express services (LHCS though, not DMU) without the "10 increasingly all stops DMU's" would probably be about right for Holyhead - Cardiff/Swansea direct trains myself (at least without building a proper Welsh north-south line). However, how would you deliver the current frequency along the north Wales coast and the marches line without the 10 slower services? I'd suggest spliting the 10 normal Holyhead - Cardiffs in twain at Chester and extending each half to Manchester, but I very much doubt the fleet would strech to doing that. So perhaps, those 10 services are the only way of providing the current frequency over the route with the limited rolling stock resources.
 

merlodlliw

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That much more than running any other train?

Clearly yourself and Merlodlliw are dead against this service.

Personally, I think this sort of service is vital in the nation building that Labour (and Plaid) have been undertaking....North - South links are key.

I wish there were better links and more capacity elsewhere, at least this service shows the way forward instead of Tory (and Libcon) like cuts, and delivers the mainly socialist people in Wales what they want.
1. I am not against the service, I object to the Premier Class.
2.Your response is Political, I shall not respond to politics
3.I have never seen a morning hot menu on the Up Service
4.Do you think WAGAIR is also the way forward,out of interest.

Bob
 
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Squaddie

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1. I am not against the service, I object to the Premier Class.
So do we have any accurate figures regarding how much more it is costing to provide the Premier Class service, once additional revenue is taken into account? It may turn out to pay for itself, in which case there is absolutely no reason not to provide it.
 

jones_bangor

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1. I am not against the service, I object to the Premier Class.
2.Your response is Political, I shall not respond to politics
3.I have never seen a morning hot menu on the Up Service
4.Do you think WAGAIR is also the way forward,out of interest.
1. Well I don't use Premier class - I wish I could afford it!
2. Well it's a political aspiration that created the service N.B. - and yes I'm glad I'm not a Tory!! You love to paint the picture that the people of Wales are against this service - I contend that they are NOT!
3. You can have a plate full of fried delights on the Up in standard
4. No, don't use WAGAIR, but don't really care to be honest.
 
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jones_bangor

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Not dead against just aware of the reality of the opportunity costs this service represents. Leasing 16 extra 158 carriages or 26 if 150 can do one hell of a lot more.

My take on north to south is that John Davies had it right years ago 3 Express DMU's a day - at the right time are sufficient for the actual market. Not 10 increasingly all stops DMU's and Gerald.
No, for a Government with a "green agenda" 3 x DMUs is not adequate. The market 15 years ago was pre-devolution, Cardiff is now at least equal to London in terms of decision making for the people of Wales. Changing landscapes need changing priorities, not heads in the sand!!

Leasing extra 158's /150's is all very well in theory - you find that many for lease!!

At least Mk2 LHCS offers "here and how" capacity, something that could be utilised elsewhere instead of letting them rot in sidings / be used for enthusiasts' trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
With an average load of 3/4 fare payers? Pay for itself? Come on.
Hang on....your one or two journeys do not represent average usage!!

I don't use Premier Class, but this service is about offering equivalance with other IC routes such as Holyhead-London and Carmarthen-Swansea-Cardiff-London.....
 
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Gareth Marston

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No, for a Government with a "green agenda" 3 x DMUs is not adequate. The market 15 years ago was pre-devolution, Cardiff is now at least equal to London in terms of decision making for the people of Wales. Changing landscapes need changing priorities, not heads in the sand!!

Leasing extra 158's /150's is all very well in theory - you find that many for lease!!

At least Mk2 LHCS offers "here and how" capacity, something that could be utilised elsewhere instead of letting them rot in sidings / be used for enthusiasts' trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hang on....your one or two journeys do not represent average usage!!

I don't use Premier Class, but this service is about offering equivalance with other IC routes such as Holyhead-London and Carmarthen-Swansea-Cardiff-London.....
3 proper express DMU's (Class 170's with buffets and Premium section)were what was proposed around 10 years, most of the bidders for the Wales and Border franchise came up with similar before goal posts were moved.
 

jones_bangor

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3 proper express DMU's (Class 170's with buffets and Premium section)were what was proposed around 10 years, most of the bidders for the Wales and Border franchise came up with similar before goal posts were moved.
Moved by politicians - and rightly so. You can't run a country with 3 services from the North to South each day.
 

TDK

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3 proper express DMU's (Class 170's with buffets and Premium section)were what was proposed around 10 years, most of the bidders for the Wales and Border franchise came up with similar before goal posts were moved.
Class 170's are over 1m per coach - cost is the factor
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
1. I am not against the service, I object to the Premier Class.
Bob
It's a good service but should be provided by ATW and not WAG if it is for passengers and not WAG members, Chiltern provide a premier service and this is paid for by them.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It may turn out to pay for itself, in which case there is absolutely no reason not to provide it.
At the cost of the tax payer for a service that can be provided by the TOC without the extra profitable injection of cash from the WAG
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
67003 has just gone down past Prestatyn light engine, so it looks like crew training has now started on the 67's
The training started a while back and there are enough Crewe drivers who sign the 67's already to run a service with 67's top & tail
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That much more than running any other train?

Clearly yourself and Merlodlliw are dead against this service.

Personally, I think this sort of service is vital in the nation building that Labour (and Plaid) have been undertaking....North - South links are key.

I wish there were better links and more capacity elsewhere, at least this service shows the way forward instead of Tory (and Libcon) like cuts, and delivers the mainly socialist people in Wales what they want.
So your comments and the defence of this service are political? The money spent and proposed to be spent on this service is a waste of resources that could be spent elswhere to improve an existing poor service for the general passenger, first class is against the left wing views is is not as I thought the red left wing views were a classless society?
 

merlodlliw

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No, for a Government with a "green agenda" 3 x DMUs is not adequate. The market 15 years ago was pre-devolution, Cardiff is now at least equal to London in terms of decision making for the people of Wales. Changing landscapes need changing priorities, not heads in the sand!!

Leasing extra 158's /150's is all very well in theory - you find that many for lease!!

At least Mk2 LHCS offers "here and how" capacity, something that could be utilised elsewhere instead of letting them rot in sidings / be used for enthusiasts' trains.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Hang on....your one or two journeys do not represent average usage!!

I don't use Premier Class, but this service is about offering equivalance with other IC routes such as Holyhead-London and Carmarthen-Swansea-Cardiff-London.....
Is WAGAIR part of the green agenda?
VT & FGW are franchise services, moving people where they want to go,the WAG Exs are open access, actually Ieuan copied W/S.
I am not aware of VT or FGW leaving daily working trains in a siding for six hours like WAG1 & 2.

As for Equivalance, is this a new name for carrying fresh air,many of my colleagues have travelled on Gerald, like me they see 2s/3s in First or none,
where up here between Chester & Manchester(ATW/WG franchise trains) are
standing room only, at Oxford Rd last week a colleague was refused entry on the 1650 it was so full.

Bob
 

Rhydgaled

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So do we have any accurate figures regarding how much more it is costing to provide the Premier Class service, once additional revenue is taken into account? It may turn out to pay for itself, in which case there is absolutely no reason not to provide it.
I'd be interested to know that too, if they just microwaved the hot meals (ie. no chef) then it probablly wouldn't cost that much more to run than a plain rake of standard class mark3s, so the expensive supplement might make it pay.

3.I have never seen a morning hot menu on the Up Service
First time I used it northbound, there were breakfast menus left on some tables in standard from the morning run. Perhaps it is just pot luck whether hot food is available or not?

No, for a Government with a "green agenda" 3 x DMUs is not adequate. The market 15 years ago was pre-devolution, Cardiff is now at least equal to London in terms of decision making for the people of Wales. Changing landscapes need changing priorities, not heads in the sand!!

Leasing extra 158's /150's is all very well in theory - you find that many for lease!!

At least Mk2 LHCS offers "here and how" capacity, something that could be utilised elsewhere instead of letting them rot in sidings / be used for enthusiasts' trains.
Agreed, LHCS is available, DMUs (except a 150 or two, no good for long distance or express services) are not. I think it is almost criminal that all this overcrowding is not being sorted when there are dozens of stored 47s (and other locos, mostly electric) and coaches just sitting around. I do think however that, going via England as the route does, that 3x express services (provided they are suitablly equiped with LHCS) is sufficent, provided only one change of train with good connections is available the rest of the day.

3 proper express DMU's (Class 170's with buffets and Premium section)were what was proposed around 10 years, most of the bidders for the Wales and Border franchise came up with similar before goal posts were moved.
Class 170, proper express DMU? NO, just NO! A 158 is a proper regional express DMU, as is a 175 I guess, and 22x and 180 units are also express units. A 170 is more like an outer-suburban unit, widely misused as a regional express unit.
 

Gareth Marston

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Moved by politicians - and rightly so. You can't run a country with 3 services from the North to South each day.
No the SRA/DfT in London got cold feet about paying for it and came up with the idea that rail use was going into decline and the no growth franchise. Welsh politicians co signed the franchise agreement based on this expert opinion.

Are you really saying that the way the current franchise was let to get more trains from North to South?
 
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