WAG Express discussion

[Bakers1970]

Is WAGAIR part of the green agenda?
VT & FGW are franchise services, moving people where they want to go,the WAG Exs are open access, actually Ieuan copied W/S.
I am not aware of VT or FGW leaving daily working trains in a siding for six hours like WAG1 & 2.


Bob

Whilst I do not want to get deeply involved, I think I must point out that your quote referring to "leaving trains In sidings for six hours like WAG1" is totally incorrect.
The whole maintenance regime is set up and managed in the downtime between the return journey..All this is set up at Cardiff Canton due to the limited facilities at Holyhead This includes all exams servicing, cleaning and coach remarshalling.... And believe me in a 5 hr turnaround it is very very tight some days.
Hope this helps

 

[merlodlliw]

Whilst I do not want to get deeply involved, I think I must point out that your quote referring to "leaving trains In sidings for six hours like WAG1" is totally incorrect.
The whole maintenance regime is set up and managed in the downtime between the return journey..All this is set up at Cardiff Canton due to the limited facilities at Holyhead This includes all exams servicing, cleaning and coach remarshalling.... And believe me in a 5 hr turnaround it is very very tight some days.
Hope this helps

I do find a five hour service Mon to Fri, on such a short run to be unusual, this can not apply to the 175(WAG2) which also has a six hour rest in Cardiff as well.
I am not an engineer, but can not understand why it takes five hours for service after only some 400 miles run up & Down. Surely cleaning/watering & coach remarshalling is also carried out at Holyhead as well.

Bob

 

[telstarbox]

158's /150's

158s and 150s - why the apostrophes?

 

[Essexman]

I'm on WAG1 tonight.
8 in premier class.
Exceelent dinner - roast duck then profitteroles.
THis is the way to travel!

 

[jones_bangor]

No the SRA/DfT in London got cold feet about paying for it and came up with the idea that rail use was going into decline and the no growth franchise. Welsh politicians co signed the franchise agreement based on this expert opinion.

Are you really saying that the way the current franchise was let to get more trains from North to South?

The no growth franchise was exactly the reason the innovative solution of the WG Express came into being - and could be applied elsewhere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

s for Equivalance, is this a new name for carrying fresh air,many of my colleagues have travelled on Gerald, like me they see 2s/3s in First or none,where up here between Chester & Manchester(ATW/WG franchise trains) are standing room only, at Oxford Rd last week a colleague was refused entry on the 1650 it was so full.

The overcrowding on that route is primarily between Manchester - Chester - the train progressively empties up to Chester. What's required is longer trains, but why should Welsh Government pay to sort this out? Surely it should be DfT who should stump up? Or are you suggesting WG Express be ended, and the money used to the benefit of Cheshire commuters? I see the case for improvements to an intra-Regional link like West Wales - Manchester - these really do need to be sorted (LHCS again? even 2 x 158's would be better)- but are the travails of English commuters for Wales to sort out?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm on WAG1 tonight.
8 in premier class.
Exceelent dinner - roast duck then profitteroles.
THis is the way to travel!

I wish!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

158s and 150s - why the apostrophes?

Personal choice!!??

 

[Penmorfa]

The overcrowding on that route is primarily between Manchester - Chester - the train progressively empties up to Chester. What's required is longer trains, but why should Welsh Government pay to sort this out? Surely it should be DfT who should stump up?

It's primarily between Oxford Road and Newton le Willows, I always make a point of boarding at Piccadilly.

Or are you suggesting WG Express be ended, and the money used to the benefit of Cheshire commuters? I see the case for improvements to an intra-Regional link like West Wales - Manchester - these really do need to be sorted (LHCS again? even 2 x 158's would be better)- but are the travails of English commuters for Wales to sort out?

I think you're being simplistic is thinking that Arriva Trains Wales is just for trains within Wales, it operates services over the National Rail network, some of which are entirely within England.

 

[jones_bangor]

I think you're being simplistic is thinking that Arriva Trains Wales is just for trains within Wales, it operates services over the National Rail network, some of which are entirely within England.

I absolutely accept that, and I've no issues with that - but I'm making the point that if "extra" money were to be found to say run 2 x 175s between Manchester and Chester, with only the front 2/3 coaches going on to Llandudno and the rest making a return to Manchester, then the DfT should provide the finance, not Cardiff Bay.

 

[Penmorfa]

I absolutely accept that, and I've no issues with that - but I'm making the point that if "extra" money were to be found to say run 2 x 175s between Manchester and Chester, with only the front 2/3 coaches going on to Llandudno and the rest making a return to Manchester, then the DfT should provide the finance, not Cardiff Bay.

But with Liverpool - Manchester electrification likely to lead to lead to more capacity on that line, overcrowding to/from Newton le Willows should be less of a problem. I've never seen a 3 car 175 full and standing leaving Chester for Manchester. Where I do quite often see overcrowding is west of Chester, particularly with 158's

 

[Gareth Marston]

But with Liverpool - Manchester electrification likely to lead to lead to more capacity on that line, overcrowding to/from Newton le Willows should be less of a problem. I've never seen a 3 car 175 full and standing leaving Chester for Manchester. Where I do quite often see overcrowding is west of Chester, particularly with 158's

General rule of thumb on today's railway if its a 2 car unit it will be overcrowded at some point.

 

[The Informer]

I'm on WAG1 tonight.
8 in premier class.
Exceelent dinner - roast duck then profitteroles.
THis is the way to travel!

Haha...love it!

 

[daikilo]

Whilst I do not want to get deeply involved, I think I must point out that your quote referring to "leaving trains In sidings for six hours like WAG1" is totally incorrect.
The whole maintenance regime is set up and managed in the downtime between the return journey..All this is set up at Cardiff Canton due to the limited facilities at Holyhead This includes all exams servicing, cleaning and coach remarshalling.... And believe me in a 5 hr turnaround it is very very tight some days.
Hope this helps

The combination of a 57 with 4/5 coaches does not need a 5-hr servicing after ever 10-12hr round trip. It may need one every few weeks/months.

 

[Bakers1970]

The combination of a 57 with 4/5 coaches does not need a 5-hr servicing after ever 10-12hr round trip. It may need one every few weeks/months.

Did I say its does have to ?? NO!!
What i did offer is ... the activities that do take place during the turnaround...

Please do not insult my intelligence with un-informed remarks!!

 

[merlodlliw]

The overcrowding on that route is primarily between Manchester - Chester - the train progressively empties up to Chester. What's required is longer trains, but why should Welsh Government pay to sort this out? Surely it should be DfT who should stump up? Or are you suggesting WG Express be ended, and the money used to the benefit of Cheshire commuters? I see the case for improvements to an intra-Regional link like West Wales - Manchester - these really do need to be sorted (LHCS again? even 2 x 158's would be better)- but are the travails of English commuters for Wales to sort out?
......................................................................................................
Ministers at WG fell over themselves to take over the Wales & Borders no growth franchise,the franchise effects commuters from North East Wales who work in Manchester

 

[jones_bangor]

Ministers at WG fell over themselves to take over the Wales & Borders no growth franchise,the franchise effects commuters from North East Wales who work in Manchester

Sold a pup, but that still returns to my original point, WG shouldn't be expected to find the solution in this particular case.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The overcrowding on that route is primarily between Manchester - Chester - the train progressively empties up to Chester. What's required is longer trains, but why should Welsh Government pay to sort this out? Surely it should be DfT who should stump up? Or are you suggesting WG Express be ended, and the money used to the benefit of Cheshire commuters? I see the case for improvements to an intra-Regional link like West Wales - Manchester - these really do need to be sorted (LHCS again? even 2 x 158's would be better)- but are the travails of English commuters for Wales to sort out?

In this case, the answer is Yes because the WG has taken over the management of the Wales & Borders franchise from DfT, and the money to fund it.

You may know that recently another 158 was inserted into the Holyhead-Birmingham services east of Shrewsbury, to address overcrowding at Wellington, Telford etc into Birmingham.
This is part of the W&B/ATW operation just as much as say Cardiff-Swansea.
Strengthening Chester-Manchester IS part of the WG remit, and not just because there might be Welsh residents on board.
If new money had to be found, I expect there will be a debate between WG and DfT and maybe more funds would flow to WG, but all of this is off the agenda in the current climate.

From Manchester, the peak hour trains are packed to Newton le Willows, fill up again at Warrington and again at Chester if they are going further west.
I have stood up all the way from Manchester to Flint before now.

 

[jones_bangor]

In this case, the answer is Yes because the WG has taken over the management of the Wales & Borders franchise from DfT, and the money to fund it.

You may know that recently another 158 was inserted into the Holyhead-Birmingham services east of Shrewsbury, to address overcrowding at Wellington, Telford etc into Birmingham.
This is part of the W&B/ATW operation just as much as say Cardiff-Swansea.
Strengthening Chester-Manchester IS part of the WG remit, and not just because there might be Welsh residents on board.
If new money had to be found, I expect there will be a debate between WG and DfT and maybe more funds would flow to WG, but all of this is off the agenda in the current climate.

From Manchester, the peak hour trains are packed to Newton le Willows, fill up again at Warrington and again at Chester if they are going further west.
I have stood up all the way from Manchester to Flint before now.

I agree with that - DfT should really cough up, but maybe the money should flow via WG to ATW.

Yes, I've "sampled" the mad-dash for seats at BNS for the Holyhead bound train!!

 

[TDK]

I agree with that - DfT should really cough up, but maybe the money should flow via WG to ATW.

Yes, I've "sampled" the mad-dash for seats at BNS for the Holyhead bound train!!

The most profitable ATW route is Manchester Pic to Cardiff with most of the funds coming from the Manchester to Crewe section, if they were told to only operate in Wales they would lose a huge chunk of revenue.

 

[jones_bangor]

The most profitable ATW route is Manchester Pic to Cardiff with most of the funds coming from the Manchester to Crewe section, if they were told to only operate in Wales they would lose a huge chunk of revenue.

The service on this route is not good - the ideal train on this route would be a 180 (ok, ok, it ain't happening!!), but failing that a couple of the refurbished 158s running as a 4-car would at least add capacity - perhaps the 175s could be redeployed on Holyhead - Birmingham?

N.B. I should have added that only 2 of the 4 car 158s would need to go west from Swansea / Carmarthen.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The expensive choo choo - the Arriva Blue 67001 was on driver training heading into Newport down the marches this lunchtime. A 67 at either end of 4 coaches that are relatively lightly used compared to the regular services on the line on a near 5 hr trip surely the most £££££ overkill on any train in UK?

 

[jones_bangor]

The expensive choo choo - the Arriva Blue 67001 was on driver training heading into Newport down the marches this lunchtime. A 67 at either end of 4 coaches that are relatively lightly used compared to the regular services on the line on a near 5 hr trip surely the most £££££ overkill on any train in UK?

At least it will now call at Wrexham

 

[merlodlliw]

At least it will now call at Wrexham

If it replaces WAG2, it will be a complete waste of stock,if it runs at the same time.

If it replaces Geralds 57 & runs via Wrexham as a one off open access,Ieuans
idea of imitating W/S will come to life,that is if it runs at a sensible time,but I fear it will still have this silly six hour hangover in Cardiff.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

,but I fear it will still have this silly six hour hangover in Cardiff.

But where shall it go...if there was a "mirror" service, they could both make a return trip in the six-hour window...........the Southbound could form the 1033 Holyhead departure, and the 1121 Northbound may be suitable.....

 

[Gareth Marston]

The proliferation of lightly used off peak services is one of the reasons behind the cost explosion since privitisation, are we seriously suggesting another 2 off peak trains on the Marches route?

BR in 1991 had 19 trains a day between Cardiff and Abergavenney with 5 in the peak. today its 29 with still only 5 in the peak cant see how making it 26 off peak does anything but add cost.

 

[jones_bangor]

The proliferation of lightly used off peak services is one of the reasons behind the cost explosion since privitisation, are we seriously suggesting another 2 off peak trains on the Marches route?

BR in 1991 had 19 trains a day between Cardiff and Abergavenney with 5 in the peak. today its 29 with still only 5 in the peak cant see how making it 26 off peak does anything but add cost.

My suggestion involved replacing existing franchised DMU runs with the LHCS.

 

[bnm]

Yes, I've "sampled" the mad-dash for seats at BNS for the Holyhead bound train!!

There's a train from Barnes to Holyhead?

 

[merlodlliw]

But where shall it go...if there was a "mirror" service, they could both make a return trip in the six-hour window...........the Southbound could form the 1033 Holyhead departure, and the 1121 Northbound may be suitable.....

Its all in the past, but W/S or any of the current open access Companies do or did not have six hour lie ins in the middle of the day, I make the comparator as the WAG Exs are run as open access & not franchise trains.
I have nothing against LHS, In my opinion it will always be superior, but use the stock for shifting people & not for politics.

On another point I met the 1230ish Wrexham to Cardiff yesterday, a two car 175 a good 50 to 60 got off, but it departed without spare seats.

 

[TDK]

But where shall it go...if there was a "mirror" service, they could both make a return trip in the six-hour window...........the Southbound could form the 1033 Holyhead departure, and the 1121 Northbound may be suitable.....

The WAG MP's won't want to travel at this time of the day so why should it run just for the comfort of ordinary passengers - that is why they have 15x's & 175's

 

[Gareth Marston]

The WAG MP's won't want to travel at this time of the day so why should it run just for the comfort of ordinary passengers - that is why they have 15x's & 175's

AS I've said before you don't find AM's on it for the simple reason their in Cardiff from Monday AM till Thursday PM.

 

[TDK]

AS I've said before you don't find AM's on it for the simple reason their in Cardiff from Monday AM till Thursday PM.

This may be fact but when the service was initially introduced was it not for the the AM's? You may find this was the original intention for the service Gareth as it was them who decided they wanted a WSMR style service from North to South Wales after travelling on WSMR stock unfortunatley they did not do their homework regarding paths and logistics as originally they approached WSMR to undertake the task with a wad of cash!

 

[Rhydgaled]

If it replaces WAG2, it will be a complete waste of stock,if it runs at the same time.

If it replaces Geralds 57 & runs via Wrexham as a one off open access,Ieuans
idea of imitating W/S will come to life,that is if it runs at a sensible time,but I fear it will still have this silly six hour hangover in Cardiff.

But where shall it go...if there was a "mirror" service, they could both make a return trip in the six-hour window...........the Southbound could form the 1033 Holyhead departure, and the 1121 Northbound may be suitable.....

Something that has come up on another topic:

The morning service is always very quiet - 2 or 3 people usually (from Shrewsbury!), rarely more than 5.

The evening service, on the other hand, can be very busy from time to time.

Does that refer only to First or is standard also very quiet in the mornings, esspecially north of Shrewsbury? If it does also apply to standard, perhaps several LHCS sets should just replace franchise workings (Manchester - Swansea/Carmarthen and Manchester - Llandudno trains), with two coming off franchise workings towards the end of the day to operate open-access 16:15-16:30ish express departures from both Cardiff/Swansea and Holyhead. In the morning, if the loadings south of Shrewsbury on WAG1 at the moment are worthwhile and you can get a set into Wrexham General's bay platforms (the old WSMR depot) overnight it could run a morning express from there to Cardiff/Swansea, instead of current WAG 1 from Holyhead.

Hopefully the LHCS can take over enough workings to allow all the busiest remaining 2-car 175 services to be upped to 3-car and improved service frequencies elsewhere using the 2-car 175s freed up or 158s displaced by those 175s.