Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[Parallel]

The October 2016 issue of Modern Railways has an article on the Conwy Valley Line. Interestingly, in the context of your post, it apparently has been given an increased promotional budget and, apparently, a new line logo.

That's good. The 'no growth' franchise in hindsight has left problems this end of the franchise. There again, it's a lose - lose situation as if more growth had been planned, there may not have been the capacity to match it.

ATW/WG don't go enough to promote railway lines in my opinion. If you go onto GWR's twitter page, website or even onboard their trains, you see posters and pictures advertising the Tarka line, St Ives line, Looe line etc and the branding (i.e. Logos) for other lines that aren't marketed as much is still strong, like the Heart of Wessex line. A lot of people probably don't even know the Conwy Valley line exists!

The problem is that trains on the route are too infrequent to do much with, and Sunday services are very poor. They could market walks between stations, or something like the Tarka ale trail but, realistically, you'd need double the amount of trains to make it worthwhile - And I believe there is capacity for this on the line with trains passing at North Llanrwst?

As for the coast portion of the Cambrian. It is largely seasonal. Most trains have two coaches all year around but they do get full in the summer months with tourists and hiking clubs. Many school kids also use them to/from Harlech or Tywyn. One thing that didn't make sense was when the evening Barmouth terminator was extended to Pwllheli, yet missed out most of the stations between Llanaber to Porthmadog, though this seems to have been rectified now. The Cambrian Coast is probably one of my favourite lines in the country due to scenery and being run by refurbished 158s - but the branding is weak. You can see on the old station signs, i.e. the ones at Pensarn that Barmouth Bridge was used as a logo at some point, but I don't even know if there is one anymore. 1tp2h is decent given the context, though there is the infrastructure to run 1tph I believe, passing at Tywyn, Barmouth, Harlech and Porthmadog. Not saying I would though, apart from maybe high summer.

 

[Philip]

On what basis? 185s are heavy and that makes them slow and expensive as commuter trains.

The door layout, a higher quality internal fit-out (IMO), tables which are fully secured so as not to vibrate, power sockets, better acceleration and more reliable (despite the 175s being a lot more reliable than they were). The weight is only an issue on lines which have MU and SP speeds. Do the North Wales Coast and the Beeston and Frodsham lines have these restrictions in any places?

 

[pemma]

The route will soon have extra services with the Chester-Manchester Victoria-Calder Valley Northern service, probably run by 158s.
The timings and stopping pattern are not clear yet, but oddly we might end up with the W&B service being the stopper and the Northern being the fast.
But there ought to be effectively 2tph North Wales-Manchester instead of 1tph if they get the connections right at Chester.

It's not currently clear when the service will start. It was supposed to be this December but now looks like it's been postponed until at least 2018 so there's a chance it could be 195 operated from the outset.

The stopping pattern west of Victoria is pretty much confirmed - most stations will be missed out except at peak times. However, the peak time services making the extra calls will go to/from Ellesmere Port not Chester. That means unless ATW diverts their services to Victoria that Chester won't have a morning peak arrival in Victoria or an evening peak departure from Victoria but will still have the ATW peak time extras to/from Piccadilly.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The door layout, a higher quality internal fit-out (IMO), tables which are fully secured so as not to vibrate, power sockets, better acceleration and more reliable (despite the 175s being a lot more reliable than they were). The weight is only an issue on lines which have MU and SP speeds. Do the North Wales Coast and the Beeston and Frodsham lines have these restrictions in any places?

No, not on Chester-Crewe/Manchester/Holyhead.
But they do exist on Marches routes (Crewe/Chester-Shrewsbury-Ludlow).
60mph Chester-Shrewsbury (vs 70MU).
70mph Crewe-Shrewsbury (vs 90MU).

 

[HH]

The door layout, a higher quality internal fit-out (IMO), tables which are fully secured so as not to vibrate, power sockets, better acceleration and more reliable (despite the 175s being a lot more reliable than they were). The weight is only an issue on lines which have MU and SP speeds. Do the North Wales Coast and the Beeston and Frodsham lines have these restrictions in any places?

The weight is an issue because it affects acceleration/deceleration. And costs.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Going back to the 185s; if the 3-car 175s are inadequate then a 185 will be also, and the 175 is a higher standard of train.

If you're classing both the 175 and 185 as intercity trains then I'd agree that the 175 is better.

I wasn't classing either as intercity. I class the 175s as 'regional express' trains, which is a higher standard of train than the classs 185s which I class as 'outer suburban' trains.

As for 'if the 3-car 175s are inadequate then a 185 will be also', I was refering to this part of my post:

The problem with the 175s, as I see it, is the main regional expresss routes they work are getting rather too busy for 2-car units and even the 3-car sets struggle in places.

Ie. if a 3-car 175 is too short, then so is a 185.

However, as a commuter train (and a train in general), I'd say the 185 wins. North Wales to Manchester isn't really an intercity route, there is of course a fair bit of tourist traffic, but I'd class it as commuter due to the large number of stops. They're all getting a 'good-as-new' refurb soon and if you convert the first class bit to standard seating, then I think you have a very decent train for this route, without the possibility of a 2-car unit turning up, as at present.

Interesting thought; Manchester - N. Wales being commuter/outer-suburban. I suppose since the service currently is normally the Llandudno stopper then you might be right. Personally, I was thinking the Manchesters should run fast to Holyhead, making them a true regional express service. The Llandudno stoppers would then come from Liverpool instead of Manchester, and might be an outer-suburban service suitable for 185s, but would that need a 4-car train?

On what basis? 185s are heavy and that makes them slow and expensive as commuter trains.

They are expensive no matter what you use them on; but are they actually slow? I thought they were uber-powerful to deal with the gradients they face on TPE, which should make them pretty fast I would have thought.

The route will soon have extra services with the Chester-Manchester Victoria-Calder Valley Northern service, probably run by 158s.

The timings and stopping pattern are not clear yet, but oddly we might end up with the W&B service being the stopper and the Northern being the fast.
But there ought to be effectively 2tph North Wales-Manchester instead of 1tph if they get the connections right at Chester.

I thought the Chester Northern Connect service was going to be class 195s. If they are going to use 158s on it, then maybe it would be reasonable for the Northern service to be the fast and W&B running stoppers. Otherwise, with 175s at W&B and 195s at Northern, I think W&B should be the fast service.

It's not currently clear when the service will start. It was supposed to be this December but now looks like it's been postponed until at least 2018 so there's a chance it could be 195 operated from the outset.

The stopping pattern west of Victoria is pretty much confirmed - most stations will be missed out except at peak times. However, the peak time services making the extra calls will go to/from Ellesmere Port not Chester. That means unless ATW diverts their services to Victoria that Chester won't have a morning peak arrival in Victoria or an evening peak departure from Victoria but will still have the ATW peak time extras to/from Piccadilly.

I don't like the sound of that; Northern outer-suburban units running fast and W&B regional express 175s doing the stops; such poor planning.

As for the coast portion of the Cambrian. It is largely seasonal. Most trains have two coaches all year around but they do get full in the summer months with tourists and hiking clubs shame there seems to be no prospect of some of the 3-car 158s/159s coming to Wales, they could do with running 3-car + 2-car on the Cambrian sometimes with the 3-car portion going to Aberystwyth at term start/end dates and Pwllheli in high summer. Many school kids also use them to/from Harlech or Tywyn. One thing that didn't make sense was when the evening Barmouth terminator was extended to Pwllheli, yet missed out most of the stations between Llanaber to Porthmadog, though this seems to have been rectified now. The Cambrian Coast is probably one of my favourite lines in the country due to scenery and being run by refurbished 158s I think it's great too - but the branding is weak. You can see on the old station signs, i.e. the ones at Pensarn that Barmouth Bridge was used as a logo at some point they had the Barmouth bridge logo at Aberystwyth at one point as well (might still be there, I'm not sure), but I don't even know if there is one anymore. 1tp2h is decent given the context, though there is the infrastructure to run 1tph I believe, passing at Tywyn, Barmouth, Harlech and Porthmadog. Not saying I would though, apart from maybe high summer I was actually rather pleased to see that limited-stop service, because I think the long-term aim for the line should be an hourly service as far as Porthmadog, with the Birmingham-Pwllheli service every two hours being a stopper and the others being limited-stop Porthmadog-Newtown runs (the idea being to extend those to Bangor and Brecon if possible). Unfortunately when I tried to timetable it an hourly service seemed to only be possible if all trains terminated at Dovey Junction, with no through running to Birmingham and Newtown (the latter also conflicted with the mainline services due to there only being one passing loop between Machynlleth and Newtown, which is of course already used by the Birmingham services).

A few points there, see notes I've added to the quote.

 

[Gareth Marston]

As an outcome we need to see Birmingham to North Wales services back to going via Stafford and the current franchise fleet of 158 concentrated on the ex Central Trains section with most reformed into 3 car sets.

Shrewsbury to BHM INTL should be minimum of 5 car sets more in peaks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting thought; Manchester - N. Wales being commuter/outer-suburban. I suppose since the service currently is normally the Llandudno stopper then you might be right.

What kind of usage is typical for that service? Do you get, for example, many commuters from (say) Shotton to Manchester? That might explain why that one is the "stopper".

If it isn't heavily used that way one option would be portion working. I think a lot more can be done with that concept. Perhaps you could have the following running onto the Coast:

2 hourly Euston-Holyhead fast
2 hourly Birmingham-Holyhead fast via Stafford (in the alternate hour with the above on the same clockface timings west of Chester, may not be possible to be the same west of Crewe due to Euston-Chester short workings)

Hourly Manchester and Liverpool (join/split at Chester) to Holyhead semi-fast

Hourly Crewe to Llandudno stopper in the opposite half-hour to the Crewe departure of the first set of trains above.

Interworked Holyhead-Llandudno stopper and Blaenau-Llandudno stopper. Aim to be 2-hourly clockface though some variation may be needed to give a useful peak service down the branch and to local stations near Holyhead.

Give them all S- or IC-numbers and make it all look like the Swiss local service concept.

Birmingham-Chester via Shrewsbury would start/terminate at Chester not run onto the Coast.

And don't waste money on connecting Cardiff and the Coast for pure political reasons other than maybe one daily direct train pair. That does not reflect actual travel demand.

 

[Philip]

Is there capacity between Crewe and Stafford to run an extra hourly train through there?

Ideally I'd like to see a half hourly service between Bangor and Chester; one carrying onto Crewe, the other to Manchester. If there is space to start both from Holyhead, amongst the proposed bi-hourly Anglesey stopper, and the Virgins, then even better. To compromise a bit whilst still pleasing the politicians, perhaps the Crewe service could then carry on to Cardiff via Shrewsbury?

As for the rolling stock...chances the 175s will stay, but I'd like to see new 4 or 5 coach mk5 rakes (with class 68) ordered to work all long distance Marches services. Then a fleet of 22 class 185s should easily be enough to work all local North Wales services, along with the interurban/regional express services to Liverpool and Manchester, plus probably a handful extra for strengthening.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Shrewsbury to BHM INTL should be minimum of 5 car sets more in peaks.

Had a university / old lag railway gathering last night -and got the 0943 from Borth to Wolves, - 4 car - decent loads to Salop then the train left full with some standing and anyone on at Wellington / Telford stood. Baled out at Wolves fora PNB at the Great Weastern but another 100+ boarded a full train. The main line is excellent - and the WiFi now on the 158's or at least the 2 I used) , worked a treat. Excellent staff and a high level of cleanliness internally. Well done ATW and staff.

Talking of the coast with an ex Traffic Manager (OK way back) who said BR used to run some Summer only extras Machynlleth to Barmouth only - as north of there - and especially Portmadog to Pwllheli is fairly dead. Any comments on this ?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What kind of usage is typical for that service? Do you get, for example, many commuters from (say) Shotton to Manchester? That might explain why that one is the "stopper".

Most trains pick up steadily eastbound to Chester, where there is usually a 50% changeover (less on London trains).
People head off for other destinations or locally. There are several sub-flows.
Coast-Wrexham/Shrewsbury (hourly) through traffic is quite small (although there is a sizeable Chester-Wrexham flow, collected from MAN/LIV/CRE).

North Wales also has daily/weekly/seasonal peaks which are different to typical commuter routes, with some ferry traffic thrown in (not much, except in main holiday periods).
There is a significant long-distance flow from all parts which you don't see elsewhere.
Not to mention Chester races when the place is flooded with good-timers.
The reverse flow, westwards into Wales, has a surprisingly high mid-day peak.

The service is also skewed by the depot at Chester.
This is particularly noticeable in the evening when ATW trains westward terminate at Chester rather than running through.
The last through train from Manchester to the coast is the 1750.

Is there capacity between Crewe and Stafford to run an extra hourly train through there?

Lots, especially now the Slows are 100mph.
The problem that way is Wolverhampton-Birmingham.

 

[Parallel]

Talking of the coast with an ex Traffic Manager (OK way back) who said BR used to run some Summer only extras Machynlleth to Barmouth only - as north of there - and especially Portmadog to Pwllheli is fairly dead. Any comments on this ?

I'd agree that Pwllheli to Porthmadog is fairly quiet. The train rarely leaves Pwllheli busy and very few people seem to board at Abererch and Penychain. There's usually a few people boarding/alighting at Criccieth. Between Porthmadog and Harlech things tend to pick up a little bit. A fair few people usually board at Harlech, and (particularly in summer) things can get very busy after Llanbedr/Dyffryn Ardudwy/Talybont stations. Then many alight at Barmouth, replaced by more boarding.

Stranger things have happened though. Last summer I got on at Llandecwyn, there were very few seats free, and after Harlech it was full and standing. The guard then had to stop at every station because they couldn't get through to check tickets and we arrived into Dovey Junction about 10 mins down. Considering how rural the line and some of the stations are, I'd say it does pretty well for itself.

 

[jhy44]

It seems a bit pointless running Holyhead-Birmingham trains via Stafford and Crewe - there is already a good fast Birmingham-Crewe service (LM & VTWC) with plenty of capacity, and using electric trains.

Why have diesel trains funded by the Welsh government running under the wires in England? It's already usually quicker to change given the slow Wrexham routing of the direct trains, and it's not at all inconvenient.

It would be fine to simply have Holyhead-Crewe trains which are timed to connect cross-platform with a BHM bound train. Then the units can be redeployed elsewhere.

Has it never been suggested to split the borderlands line at Shotton, electrify to Shotton, then let MR run a half-hourly local Liverpool-Shotton and let Arriva continue their hourly Shotton-Wrexham? The Liverpool-Shotton section should be a well-used Liverpool commuter line, it seems so odd to have it paired with what is a pretty minor rural Welsh route.

And for the love of god can we please get at least half-hourly trains on the Valleys on a Sunday regardless of whatever Metro developments happen or not. It's an absolute joke that Penarth has a train every 2 hours into Cardiff on a Sunday. There's nothing else quite like that sort of reduction on a Sunday in any other city in this country. It's quicker to WALK if you miss a train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's nothing else quite like that sort of reduction on a Sunday in any other city in this country. It's quicker to WALK if you miss a train.

Manchester-Marple was 2-hourly on a Sunday until quite recently. It's now hourly, but that's still not good enough for an urban S-Bahn service in England's 2nd/3rd city (depending who you ask ).

 

[PHILIPE]

It seems a bit pointless running Holyhead-Birmingham trains via Stafford and Crewe - there is already a good fast Birmingham-Crewe service (LM & VTWC) with plenty of capacity, and using electric trains.

Why have diesel trains funded by the Welsh government running under the wires in England? It's already usually quicker to change given the slow Wrexham routing of the direct trains, and it's not at all inconvenient.

It would be fine to simply have Holyhead-Crewe trains which are timed to connect cross-platform with a BHM bound train. Then the units can be redeployed elsewhere.

Has it never been suggested to split the borderlands line at Shotton, electrify to Shotton, then let MR run a half-hourly local Liverpool-Shotton and let Arriva continue their hourly Shotton-Wrexham? The Liverpool-Shotton section should be a well-used Liverpool commuter line, it seems so odd to have it paired with what is a pretty minor rural Welsh route.

And for the love of god can we please get at least half-hourly trains on the Valleys on a Sunday regardless of whatever Metro developments happen or not. It's an absolute joke that Penarth has a train every 2 hours into Cardiff on a Sunday. There's nothing else quite like that sort of reduction on a Sunday in any other city in this country. It's quicker to WALK if you miss a train.

Very often increasing Sunday services depends on funding being made available from whatever source. ATW are very reluctant to fund anything additional themselves and just stick to the Franchise contract. There are occasions, though, when there are increases such as increasing current Sunday services on the Rhymney Valley Line which have just taken place but by squeezing existing diagrams.

 

[Philip]

Another thought, this time for the Crewe-Shrewsbury shuttle, is there potential to extend this to Chester via Middlewich and Northwich? If Middlewich Station is reopened and the line speed increased, it could create some useful connections between towns in West and South Cheshire and North Shropshire. Direct hourly or bi-hourly trains between Whitchurch, Wrenbury, Nantwich, Crewe, Sandbach, Middlewich, Northwich and Chester.

 

[PHILIPE]

I notice there have been many posts on the thread suggesting varying or additional services and re-openings but, how ever plausible they may be, is consideration being given to finding a never ending supply of units to work them.

 

[gareth950]

And for the love of god can we please get at least half-hourly trains on the Valleys on a Sunday regardless of whatever Metro developments happen or not. It's an absolute joke that Penarth has a train every 2 hours into Cardiff on a Sunday. There's nothing else quite like that sort of reduction on a Sunday in any other city in this country. It's quicker to WALK if you miss a train.

I get the feeling that the Penarth service is just seen as an add on to the Bargoed/Rhymney services by ATW. If there's ever any disruption on the Rhymney line, Penarth services are almost immediately cancelled and curtailed at Central.
Often during engineering work over holiday periods or on Sundays the advice from ATW (as with the City line) is simply 'use Cardiff Bus'.

 

[Gareth Marston]

I notice there have been many posts on the thread suggesting varying or additional services and re-openings but, how ever plausible they may be, is consideration being given to finding a never ending supply of units to work them.

It's the replacement franchise were talking about where we hopefully move away from the excuses made in reaction to the present franchise not perpetuate them. No growth is so 2003

 

[miami]

Another thought, this time for the Crewe-Shrewsbury shuttle, is there potential to extend this to Chester via Middlewich and Northwich? If Middlewich Station is reopened and the line speed increased, it could create some useful connections between towns in West and South Cheshire and North Shropshire. Direct hourly or bi-hourly trains between Whitchurch, Wrenbury, Nantwich, Crewe, Sandbach, Middlewich, Northwich and Chester.

Another train crossing the lines at crewe? it will be faster to change to a Crewe-Chester train.

 

[HH]

They are expensive no matter what you use them on; but are they actually slow? I thought they were uber-powerful to deal with the gradients they face on TPE, which should make them pretty fast I would have thought.

There's a difference between fast and having good acceleration/deceleration, which is the problem with 185s. So, what they don't want to be doing is a lot of stopping and starting, like you get on commuter services...

Because they're expensive it's easier to justify them on services that generate a lot of revenue and require their quality, although I suspect they are not going to be top of many lists. In some respects they are akin to an evolutionary dead end.

 

[6Gman]

Tram Trains might be a good idea.

Yes, that'd kill off the Holyhead - Cardiff market for good.

 

[craigybagel]

On what basis? 185s are heavy and that makes them slow and expensive as commuter trains.

Door layout. Much better for commuter work than the end vestibules on 175s. You can squeeze more people on as well that way. I've been able to still do revenue on a Class 150 with over 200 people on it. On a 2 car 175 with that many people on and with an extra 6 metres of train to fit people on you still can't even open the cab door.

Not as comfortable for passengers mind......

 

[HH]

Door layout. Much better for commuter work than the end vestibules on 175s.

That sounds like you don't want either, rather than that the 185 is a good solution.

There's a lot more to rolling stock decisions than good door position, although that is a factor.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes, that'd kill off the Holyhead - Cardiff market for good.

Thought it was dead already.

 

[craigybagel]

That sounds like you don't want either, rather than that the 185 is a good solution.

There's a lot more to rolling stock decisions than good door position, although that is a factor.

I was merely pointing out why 185s are better than 175s for commuter work. As far as what I want, it's hard to say since I don't sign 185s but spend about 80% of my working life on 175s, so it's not fair for me to compare them on a personal level. If I could have more intermediate 175 cars so all 2 car services could go to 3 cars and all 3 could go to 4 I'd be very happy but that's not going to happen. That said, I don't think anyone does know what IS going to happen - all we can do is guess wildly.

Thought it was dead already.

I never knew it was alive to begin with

 

[craigybagel]

There's a difference between fast and having good acceleration/deceleration, which is the problem with 185s. So, what they don't want to be doing is a lot of stopping and starting, like you get on commuter services...
.

185s have excellent acceleration, far superior to anything in the ATW fleet at present. It's just that they're also extremely thirsty, so they rarely get to show off that feature.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thought it was dead already.

Was it, WAG aside, ever alive to start with? That particular service pattern is a political construct that has nothing to do with where people actually want to go.

Wales is not like Scotland - it's not self contained, and relies heavily on the nearby English cities.

 

[Philip]

175s have also had their H-D brake disabled for a good few years now. Unless it's reinstated is it better that they go on limited stop services in the long run, to save the brake pads? The 185s for that matter have a working H-D brake which I don't think has given many, if any problems

 

[pemma]

I don't like the sound of that; Northern outer-suburban units running fast and W&B regional express 175s doing the stops; such poor planning.

The Manchester to North Wales route is one the 175s were ordered for and the only original 175 route that they remain on.

The only real differences between the 175s and 195s will be the door arrangement and the latter having more modern facilities e.g. having USB charging points and electronic seat reservation displays. The 175s also have very wide single doors which are wider than double doors on some trains.