Wales & Borders Franchise Consultation

[Bletchleyite]

Haven't the ex-TPE 3 car 158s at SWT been modified so they are are more similar to the 159/0s then the remaining 3 car 158s with other operators?

Yes, but such modifications can always be reversed.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Yes, I have on a number of occasions. What's preposterous about it? Flatten it and build a new, modern, pre-cast concrete type one from scratch. That's what the Swiss do. You'd have to close the line and run a bus shuttle from Newtown to Aber and <somewhere on the Coast> (or a temporary road access to Dovey Jn if the farmer was amenable to such) but it'd take what, a couple of months?

You could as an alternative staff and provide buildings at Dovey Jn, but that would have less value.

Or you just run every train through to/from Brum and the importance as an interchange reduces to being between Aber and the Coast only, which is my preferred option.

The gains for the disruption are minimal.What do you do for the train crew depot whilst construction take place bearing in mind the amount of railway land left is small.

 

[Suraggu]

Now I know Wales deserves new rolling stock, but with other franchises recieving Stadler and CAF DMU's I can see a huge cascade of DMU's to Wales.

Plus with ongoing strong rumours of South Western Rail franchise to order new EDMU's there will be plenty of 3 car Class 159 fleet going spare.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The gains for the disruption are minimal.What do you do for the train crew depot whilst construction take place bearing in mind the amount of railway land left is small.

A Portakabin? Another site, e.g. Portakabins on a nearby field? Lots of options there; that need not be a barrier.

I should make it clear, though, that my preference is very much a timetable change to run all trains through to/from Brum, or at the very least Shrewsbury in the early morning/late evening. Only Aber <-> coast passengers should be changing, and often it'll make sense for this to be at Dovey Jn anyway. Demand is reaching the point that a double unit throughout is very much justified, and as I noted 5-car from Brum splitting at Mach (which could be done by sticking a non-ERTMS half-158 between the two halves of an existing one) would fit the line well.

Some good fares deals on those Coast through services (Advances etc) and you should manage to get a load of holiday traffic to boost the line's business case.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In particular, the attached (highlighted) is an absolute comedy show that is throwing away weekend break holiday traffic. A missed connection by two minutes on what could be a prime Friday evening after-work weekend break train that carries, in my experience, one man and his proverbial dog and pushbike even when there are events on like Race the Train in Tywyn. A clown couldn't have thought that one up.

1743 off Euston, 1909 off Brum on a Friday evening, ideally running through from Brum? I reckon you'd as good as fill that in summer with a bit of promotion.

 

[HH]

The door position really isn't that important. It's how you lay the interior out.

Tell that to the people travelling up the HML in the winter! One of the biggest complaints is that the 170s let in too much cold air.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tell that to the people travelling up the HML in the winter! One of the biggest complaints is that the 170s let in too much cold air.

That would be solved by fitting vestibule doors, as some 170s had as built (though with Adtranz's shocking build quality they barely ever actually worked). It has little to do with door *position*.

 

[Llanigraham]

Yes, I have on a number of occasions. What's preposterous about it? Flatten it and build a new, modern, pre-cast concrete type one from scratch. That's what the Swiss do. You'd have to close the line and run a bus shuttle from Newtown to Aber and <somewhere on the Coast> (or a temporary road access to Dovey Jn if the farmer was amenable to such) but it'd take what, a couple of months?

You could as an alternative staff and provide buildings at Dovey Jn, but that would have less value.

Or you just run every train through to/from Brum and the importance as an interchange reduces to being between Aber and the Coast only, which is my preferred option.

Which goes to prove that whilst you might have traveled through it you haven't actually looked at typography of the station and it's surroundings.
1/ It is built on a ledge, with an industrial estate on a flood plain to the north.
2/ The southern side is the ATW Depot and Machy SCC. Where are they going to go?
3/ Part of the station is built over the A487 which is the only access to Machy from the North without a very long and narrow diversion. How will you deal with that?
4/ I think the actual station building is Listed by CADW, and is used by various bodies as offices. Where are they to be rehoused?
5/ Have you actually looked at the ground and road conditions in the Dovey Junction Station area, or the fact that next to it is a Nature Reserve?
and finally
6/ What on earth have the Swiss got to do with it? You seem totally preoccupied by a governmental and social system that is in no way comparable to the UK.

 

[Llanigraham]

In particular, the attached (highlighted) is an absolute comedy show that is throwing away weekend break holiday traffic. A missed connection by two minutes on what could be a prime Friday evening after-work weekend break train that carries, in my experience, one man and his proverbial dog and pushbike even when there are events on like Race the Train in Tywyn. A clown couldn't have thought that one up.

1743 off Euston, 1909 off Brum on a Friday evening, ideally running through from Brum? I reckon you'd as good as fill that in summer with a bit of promotion.

From experience, the Coast section is held.
Next?

 

[Bletchleyite]

From experience, the Coast section is held.
Next?

You mean that is an untimetabled connection?

If so, put it in the timetable! It isn't just a local train for local people. If it is a connection, it needs to go in the journey planners.

 

[Llanigraham]

You mean that is an untimetabled connection?

If so, put it in the timetable! It isn't just a local train for local people. If it is a connection, it needs to go in the journey planners.

I haven't a clue what an "untimetabled connection" is, and to be honest, not particularly interested, but what I can tell you is that when I have been on that train because I've parked at Machy, the Coast has been held.
Perhaps it is because staff around here care and have their own "rules".

Are you going to answer the questions about your proposals for Machy station?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I haven't a clue what an "untimetabled connection" is, and to be honest, not particularly interested, but what I can tell you is that when I have been on that train because I've parked at Machy, the Coast has been held.
Perhaps it is because staff around here care and have their own "rules".

Having those "rules" means the problem won't ever get solved. If that is supposed to be a connection, the timetable needs adjusting so it is a connection. Doing otherwise is throwing away potential passengers.

Are you going to answer the questions about your proposals for Machy station?

I will answer them later when I have time to look at more detail about the location.

 

[PHILIPE]

The late trains from Machynlleth along the coast are advertised connections. The minimal connection time at Machynlleth is 4 minutes. Apart from the last train, all the others are through portions from Birmingham to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli, splitting at Machynlleth.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The late trains from Machynlleth along the coast are advertised connections. The minimal connection time at Machynlleth is 4 minutes. Apart from the last train, all the others are through portions from Birmingham to Aberystwyth and Pwllheli, splitting at Machynlleth.

No, it's not.

Look at the attachment on my posting - the logical connection (from Shrewsbury) misses. There is a connection from an earlier train but that involves sitting at Mach for approaching an hour. I know it does, because I've done it.

It's ludicrous, basically making the train completely unattractive to passengers on weekend breaks. Throwing potential traffic away.

Now, there might be a local arrangement that the connection doesn't miss. But that's useless to a passenger using the journey planner, and an almighty risk because it's the last connection.

Now, ideally the Shrewsbury service would be extended back to Birmingham and run as two units. But even if that isn't possible, the minimum that needs to happen is that Pwllheli train to be retimed just 6 minutes later then it will connect.

 

[PHILIPE]

No, it's not.

Look at the attachment on my posting - the logical connection (from Shrewsbury) misses. There is a connection from an earlier train but that involves sitting at Mach for approaching an hour. I know it does, because I've done it.

It's ludicrous, basically making the train completely unattractive to passengers on weekend breaks. Throwing potential traffic away.

Now, there might be a local arrangement that the connection doesn't miss. But that's useless to a passenger using the journey planner, and an almighty risk because it's the last connection.

Now, ideally the Shrewsbury service would be extended back to Birmingham and run as two units. But even if that isn't possible, the minimum that needs to happen is that Pwllheli train to be retimed just 6 minutes later then it will connect.

Do you understand such factors as traincrews maximum length of hours in a turn of duty. This train should ideally leave Machynlleth earlier but it can't go from Machynlleth without enough fuel to go to Pwllheli where it stables overnight, and do the next day's turn of duty. Many things are done for a good reason which, to the outsider, may be difficult to comprehend. The 1909 from Birmingham Intl has a portion for Chester and also, when the service was increased a couple of years ago, this was done against a background of no additional units so everything is absolutely stretched to the limits.

 

[craigybagel]

Do you understand such factors as traincrews maximum length of hours in a turn of duty. This train should ideally leave Machynlleth earlier but it can't go from Machynlleth without enough fuel to go to Pwllheli where it stables overnight, and do the next day's turn of duty. Many things are done for a good reason which, to the outsider, may be difficult to comprehend. The 1909 from Birmingham Intl has a portion for Chester and also, when the service was increased a couple of years ago, this was done against a background of no additional units so everything is absolutely stretched to the limits.

There is indeed a traincrew related reason as to why the Pwllheli service leaves at the time that it does.

 

[Llanigraham]

There is indeed a traincrew related reason as to why the Pwllheli service leaves at the time that it does.

Quite; shame that people cannot accept that.

No, it's not.

Look at the attachment on my posting - the logical connection (from Shrewsbury) misses. There is a connection from an earlier train but that involves sitting at Mach for approaching an hour. I know it does, because I've done it.

It's ludicrous, basically making the train completely unattractive to passengers on weekend breaks. Throwing potential traffic away.

Now, there might be a local arrangement that the connection doesn't miss. But that's useless to a passenger using the journey planner, and an almighty risk because it's the last connection.

Now, ideally the Shrewsbury service would be extended back to Birmingham and run as two units. But even if that isn't possible, the minimum that needs to happen is that Pwllheli train to be retimed just 6 minutes later then it will connect.

Talk about clutching at straws!!
I don't know of many people who are going to be arriving at their weekend break after 1900.

Please accept that some of us who live in the area do know what happens and why.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Quite; shame that people cannot accept that.







Talk about clutching at straws!!

I don't know of many people who are going to be arriving at their weekend break after 1900.

Really? I'm thinking of the potentially very significant flow from London and the SE here.

And no, I don't accept that poor timetabling should be allowed to continue. A way should be found to try to improve the situation. ATW may even find that it improves the economics of a very lightly loaded train.

 

[PHILIPE]

Really? I'm thinking of the potentially very significant flow from London and the SE here.

And no, I don't accept that poor timetabling should be allowed to continue. A way should be found to try to improve the situation. ATW may even find that it improves the economics of a very lightly loaded train.

As has been pointed out to you, Timetabling can sometimes be influenced by other factors, which you seem unable to understand. What would you rather have, the current Timetable or the old one with 8 less trains a day between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth ?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Really? I'm thinking of the potentially very significant flow from London and the SE here.

And no, I don't accept that poor timetabling should be allowed to continue. A way should be found to try to improve the situation. ATW may even find that it improves the economics of a very lightly loaded train.

We have to remember this is against the background of a long running campaign to increase services on the Cambrian mainline stretching back nearly 20 years. The Curent franchise agreement does not provide for it and AtW would have been happy to see it out to the end of the franchise without adding any new services.

The Welsh Government had stonewalled and tried to make it somebody else's responsibility for years when faced with campaigning. However at one meeting they tried to fob off the Line Liaison Commitee with money for a study into demand on the Cambrian for extra trains. WG expected a few hundred responses and saying thank you it will inform the next franchise. Instead they got 6500 responses and found themselves backed into a corner when faced with overwhelming evidence they couldn't fob off.

WG reluctantly agreed to fund some extra services without acquiring any more rolling stock. The whole thing is therefore a bodge up done to try and save £. The connection or non connection you've been so heated about is just one of the problems of the inadequately resourced extra trains on the Cambrian.

At least we didn't get what the Heart of Wales did with their bodge up - a 10% drop in usage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As has been pointed out to you, Timetabling can sometimes be influenced by other factors, which you seem unable to understand. What would you rather have, the current Timetable or the old one with 8 less trains a day between Shrewsbury and Aberystwyth ?

The old one had the same kind of "poor connection" issue with that train.

 

[anthony263]

Hopefully we will see the new franchise incorporate new services with new/displaced dmu's I wont be surprised to see us get some of these class 319's flex units as well as some possibly displaced class 158's.

I also believe that Northerns class 144's will appear on shot term to bolster the valley lines fleet

 

[PHILIPE]

Hopefully we will see the new franchise incorporate new services with new/displaced dmu's I wont be surprised to see us get some of these class 319's flex units as well as some possibly displaced class 158's.

I also believe that Northerns class 144's will appear on shot term to bolster the valley lines fleet

Any additional units which would see use on the Cambrian would have to be ERTMS fitted. I wonder if the additional costs would influence any decision.

 

[anthony263]

Depends if its cheaper to retrofit the ETRMs on any cascaded 158's or maybe equip the 175's or order brand new units

 

[Gareth Marston]

Any additional units which would see use on the Cambrian would have to be ERTMS fitted. I wonder if the additional costs would influence any decision.

No as the ATW Fleet Curent covers diagrams in S Wales and North Wales to Manchester diagrams if extra stock is brought in to these areas the 158's can go go to The ex Central Trains routes.

 

[craigybagel]

No as the ATW Fleet Curent covers diagrams in S Wales and North Wales to Manchester diagrams if extra stock is brought in to these areas the 158's can go go to The ex Central Trains routes.

Only up to a point though. If my maths are correct - at any one time during the day you'll have 3 158s somewhere between Shrewsbury and Holyhead, and 3 in the south. That gives you an extra 6 158s to play with if they exclusively worked Cambrian-Birmingham (notwithstanding the alterations you'd have to do to the diagrams to free them up). Is 6 extra units enough to do everything that the Cambrian needs?

 

[Gareth Marston]

Only up to a point though. If my maths are correct - at any one time during the day you'll have 3 158s somewhere between Shrewsbury and Holyhead, and 3 in the south. That gives you an extra 6 158s to play with if they exclusively worked Cambrian-Birmingham (notwithstanding the alterations you'd have to do to the diagrams to free them up). Is 6 extra units enough to do everything that the Cambrian needs?

You need 2 extra units to resource the hourly service to Aberystwyth properly instead of squeezing existing diagrams as now. If you concentrated them all on the ex Central Trains lines your looking at being able to reform two thirds of them into 3 car sets and still running hourly from West Midlands to Chester and Cambrian with portions joining and splitting at Shrewsbury.

 

[miami]

Now, there might be a local arrangement that the connection doesn't miss. But that's useless to a passenger using the journey planner, and an almighty risk because it's the last connection.

Lets assume the connection can be held for 5 minutes without any problems (As seems to be the normal pattern). If it were in the journey planner as an official connection, and the incoming train was 10 minutes late, the connection would be failed. You then have a large number of people stranded in the middle of nowhere (or carried to Aberwystwyth) needing taxis, at great expense.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lets assume the connection can be held for 5 minutes without any problems (As seems to be the normal pattern). If it were in the journey planner as an official connection, and the incoming train was 10 minutes late, the connection would be failed. You then have a large number of people stranded in the middle of nowhere (or carried to Aberwystwyth) needing taxis, at great expense.

So? It's hardly an unusual situation.

The argument regarding traincrew scheduling (that things are so tight it's not possible within hours) is a valid one, though I do wonder what happens if that train is for whatever reason delayed[1]. That argument isn't.

[1] If it couldn't be delayed 6 minutes per the timetable so it would connect, what if it's 7 minutes late for some reason e.g. unit issues? Is it cancelled if it's delayed at all?

 

[craigybagel]

So? It's hardly an unusual situation.

The argument regarding traincrew scheduling (that things are so tight it's not possible within hours) is a valid one, though I do wonder what happens if that train is for whatever reason delayed[1]. That argument isn't.

[1] If it couldn't be delayed 6 minutes per the timetable so it would connect, what if it's 7 minutes late for some reason e.g. unit issues? Is it cancelled if it's delayed at all?

Not that this is necessarily the case in this example (I only know parts of the reasoning behind it, and even if I knew the full story it's not for me to share) but what you're allowed to do as a permanent everyday plan and what you're allowed to do as a contingency in times of disruption do sometimes differ where timetabling and traincrew planning is concerned.