Wales is to ban travel from COVID hotspots

ainsworth74

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I am sure JRM is aware of what is constitutional or not.
JRM? The man who enabled an illegal prorogation of Parliament? Perhaps he does know what's constitutional or not but I doubt he gives a stuff one way or the other unless it helps him and his colleagues with their own agenda. Otherwise I rather suspect the constitution can do one as far as he's concerned.
 
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Dai Corner

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I think more should be made of those "phantom warnings" - "you were near someone who tested positive, but not for long enough to isolate, but maybe you should be thinking about how you are living to try to reduce these"? Gamify it a bit?
I live in what is apparently a high risk area and have the NHS app on my phone. I've gone about my life visiting shops, pubs and restaurants usually by bus but haven't had a single warning. I'm surprised that you, living in a low-risk area, have had several. I'm sceptical about the app to be honest.
 

John Luxton

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I do however wonder if they were people who were walking past outside, as Bluetooth will go through glass, albeit at limited signal strength. My house is on one of the busy "walk to school" routes.
Some people have had the bluetooth switched off since mid May when the word went around the anti lockdown groups it might be used in some sort of app and certain phone numbers have been blocked too! :D

To be honest I don't really use Bluetooth anyway.

Even in the car I almost always plug my phone in so it recharges thus Bluetooth isn't required even to communicate with my hand's free facility.

John

JRM? The man who enabled an illegal prorogation of Parliament? Perhaps he does know what's constitutional or not but I doubt he gives a stuff one way or the other unless it helps him and his colleagues with their own agenda. Otherwise I rather suspect the constitution can do one as far as he's concerned.
I have admired JRM for years and would have liked to have seen him as PM. But it this way he may have made a mistake over the prorogation of parliament - but I would rather trust him than the Welsh Dictators - as depicted in by a graphic sent out by UKIP. - No I am not a UKIP supporter but it sums Drakeford and Gething up well.

Furthermore the MP for Pembrokeshire a popular tourist hotspot made interesting comments after Drakeford suggest that locals snitch on visitors :

"Mr Drakeford was criticised by Preseli Pembrokeshire MP Stephen Crabb for comments on Times Radio where the first minister said people in the "far west of Wales" would be "on the lookout for people who shouldn't be in those areas".
Mr Crabb tweeted that Pembrokeshire had been "rammed with visitors from all over the UK in August who overwhelmingly enjoyed their stays while respecting guidelines", claiming there had been "no impact on community transmission of the virus". "Drakeford is wrong to whip up anti visitor (English) sentiment," he wrote."
 

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WelshBluebird

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I have admired JRM for years and would have liked to have seen him as PM. But it this way he may have made a mistake over the prorogation of parliament - but I would rather trust him than the Welsh Dictators - as depicted in by a graphic sent out by UKIP. - No I am not a UKIP supporter but it sums Drakeford and Gething up well.
Talk about melodramatic.
If you are going to claim Drakeford and Gething as dictators then surely you must also make the same claim for Boris and his friends too!

Furthermore the MP for Pembrokeshire a popular tourist hotspot made interesting comments after Drakeford suggest that locals snitch on visitors
Not sure I'd take Stephen Crabb as any kind of reference to pay much attention to tbh.
He resigned from government because he was found to be sending sexually explicit text messages to someone who he had interviewed for a job yet before it was Tory party policy voted against same sex marriage because of his "Christian" values.
Given his position in the Tory party he is just using this as a way to raise politician points against the Labour run Welsh government. I suspect if you look into it, he probably hasn't criticized Boris for his handling of any of this!
 

John Luxton

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Talk about melodramatic.
If you are going to claim Drakeford and Gething as dictators then surely you must also make the same claim for Boris and his friends too!
Not sure I'd take Stephen Crabb as any kind of reference to pay much attention to tbh.
He resigned from government because he was found to be sending sexually explicit text messages to someone who he had interviewed for a job yet before it was Tory party policy voted against same sex marriage because of his "Christian" values.
Given his position in the Tory party he is just using this as a way to raise politician points against the Labour run Welsh government. I suspect if you look into it, he probably hasn't criticized Boris for his handling of any of this!
BoJo is not much better than Drakeford to be honest, despite me being a Conservative. I just find the whole handling of Covid against traditional conservative principals to be honest.

But restricting movement of people just reminds me of Eastern Europe pre 1989 and at least BoJo appears reluctant to go that far.

Living close to the border I spend most of my leisure time divided between Wales (75%) and Cornwall and Devon (25%) therefore I follow Welsh politics quite closely and tend to watch news from BBC Wales rather than England. My impression of Drakeford is not great and as for Stephen Crabb tell me of one politician who doesn't have a skeleton in the cupboard which can be dragged out by their opponents. If visitors to Wales had been responsible for spreading Covid how come some of the worst outbreaks are in non Tourist areas of the Valleys and around Wrexham? Crabb has a point.

For the last six years I have usually gone to Pembrokeshire for a few days. I didn't this summer dur to reports of large numbers of tourists and had deferred my plans to after the autumn half term when I thought it would be quieter. As I presume Drakeford will be expecting Hotels to police his plans under draconian punishment I imagine my chances of getting there are now slim to non-existent and Wales loss will probably be Devon / Cornwall's economic gain next month.

However, much Drakeford might lean on Welsh businesses to reject custom from "hotspots" it will not prevent border incursions for day trips as it didn't between March and early July. Just a case of planning routes carefully and avoiding certain locations. :D
 

adc82140

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But he's been restricting our movements in one way or another since March?
But there's a big difference between being told you cannot leave your town and there being nothing open or available that's worth visiting, so it's not worthwhile leaving.

In the event of a further lockdown, the other part of my support bubble lives 55 miles away, so I'll continue going up and down the M3 come what may.
 

Darandio

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But there's a big difference between being told you cannot leave your town and there being nothing open or available that's worth visiting, so it's not worthwhile leaving.
Maybe so. But to suggest that Boris Johnson has been reluctant to go as far as restricting movement is fanciful at best.
 

Bikeman78

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When I look at my own position in my road not one person has had Covid 19. None of my neighbours and near neighbours I speak to knows anyone who has Covid 19.
I know of three people that have had it. They all felt rough for two or three days then got better. Given that I live with one of them I've probably "had it" as well.

An acquaintance of mine enthusiastically downloaded the app arguing it was his moral duty to do so despite my scepticism about keeping big brother in his pocket. Once he kept getting phantom warnings he deleted it.

No I am not being monitored like that either.

What people fail to realise is Covid is being used as excuse for increasing state control of the people. Of course it is dressed up as being in the interests of public health - but I fear this country is on the slippery slope unless the people wake up to what is going on.

I am not a conspiracy theorist - but one does wonder if some of the ideas being peddled by various groups have at least some grain of truth in them?

John
I've not had any warnings but then I've done nothing but go to work since I downloaded the app.
 

island

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The regulations have been published and took effect at 18:00hrs today.

It is illegal, subject to an assortment of exemptions, for residents of a tier 2 or tier 3 area in England, a protected area in Scotland, or the entirety of Northern Ireland to enter Wales, or for anyone resident in Wales to leave Wales with the intent to travel to any of the foregoing areas.

I will leave it as an exercise to the reader to evaluate how enforceable this is.
 

Yew

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Can you make it illegal to leave, surely the crime would by definition be comitted outside of wales?
 

island

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Can you make it illegal to leave, surely the crime would by definition be comitted outside of wales?
The offence is to leave Wales for the purpose of travelling to one of those areas. The Heddlu have the right to turn anyone back who says that is where they are going.
 

John Luxton

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The offence is to leave Wales for the purpose of travelling to one of those areas. The Heddlu have the right to turn anyone back who says that is where they are going.
It is quite obvious one only needs to be creative with one reasons for travel! Being honest will be what catches most people out. Perhaps stretching the truth is better.
 

Mag_seven

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Can I remind posters that this thread is to discuss the Welsh travel ban.

Discussion of the England and Wales tracing app can be found here.

Thanks :)
 

LNW-GW Joint

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With Cheshire (West and East) now being in Tier 2, that effectively closes the north Wales border in both directions for leisure travel.
Next week we get the Welsh circuit breaker which presumably will enforce even more restrictions for 2-3 weeks.
The back roads are going to be busy!
 

John Luxton

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With Cheshire (West and East) now being in Tier 2, that effectively closes the north Wales border in both directions for leisure travel.
Next week we get the Welsh circuit breaker which presumably will enforce even more restrictions for 2-3 weeks.
The back roads are going to be busy!
However, there is the anomaly of the A485/A5 A550/A5 road routes and the Chester to Shrewsbury rail route.

The shortest way from Merseyside to Shropshire and further south is via the above routes.

I use the A485/A5 quite regularly or the A550 / A5 to access not only Wales but also Shropshire and the South West of England (I avoid the M6/M5 drag) which also sees me drive down the Wye Valley the road down which alternates between Wales and England at between Monmouth and the Severn Bridge.

The BBC news web site report showed the Bigsweir Bridge in the Wye Valley when they reported the restrictions.

Therefore I imagine there are going to be many people travelling through Wales from England to get to places in England.

Same with the train board the train at Chester and passengers from Merseyside and Cheshire end up mixing with passengers from Wrexham / Ruabon / Chirk.

This is where the rules become silly.

During the continued Welsh Lockdown I made a few trips to Snailbeach and travelled by the A485/A5 outbound returning A5/A550 through these areas. I did it that way round as there had been high profile images of stop checks posted at Queensferry Bridge. Therefore at that location I would have been exiting Wales. Reality confirmed that they were certainly not a regular occurrence and were probably stage more to generate the fear factor.

I then realised that there was no one checking anyone.

Likewise there was no one standing on Chirk aqueduct checking boaters and walkers!

Anyway as my spring holiday plans had been messed up I thought I would head for two hotels in south Wales that I normally frequent in early November - but had held off booking things to see how things develop. Well in one crazy move Dripford and Nothing have just deprived the Welsh economy of around £1k from just this this punter.

I will almost certainly be heading off for Dartmoor instead but I will be driving through Wales (and past one of the hotels I would have stayed at at Tintern) to get there! - Mad!

So much for the United Kingdom!

In reality a few people will get caught - there will be some high profile announcements in the media - just to keep the fear factor going - if the virus doesn't worry you then the fine might.

Well for me neither does.

As was said in the House of Commons the other day by JRM this travel ban is unconstitutional.

John
 

nedchester

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You can make a journey through Wales from England to England.

Tomorrow I’m going from Chester to Bridgnorth. A483 / A5 passes in and out of Wales on its way towards Shrewsbury.

I can’t see the police stopping anyone along there.
 

island

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With Cheshire (West and East) now being in Tier 2, that effectively closes the north Wales border in both directions for leisure travel.
Not really, the ban is based on where you reside, so someone coming from further east travelling through Cheshire is unaffected.
 

317 forever

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So if Wales is being locked away from the rest of the UK, how will it work with cross border train services? For example, would anyone travelling on a direct train from Shrewsbury to Chester be required to sit in a separate carriage from someone making a local journey from Chirk to Wrexham, or would English passengers just be required to go via Crewe instead?
That reminds me. A couple of years ago I travelled home to Stockport from Exeter via Newport as it was cheaper than via Birmingham. I did not wilfully stop off at Newport, but there was an engineering replacement bus from Newport to Cwmbran. Welsh police could have a field day with this sort of thing now!

Why? Unless you're a spotter of DVLA registrations you won't know where each one comes from. In any case many used cars are bought via national dealer networks. Mine was bought in Bournemouth, but was transported down from Scotland somewhere, carried a Scottish originated plate, and now carries my personal Northern Irish plate.
Someone suspicious in Wales could report bus companies such as Cardiff Bus and Stagecoach driving ADL buses that were registered in Falkirk as this is a Scottish hotspot. :lol:

No, I don't like all this Wales/England/Scotland/NI nonsense. I was born in Glasgow to a Cumbrian mother and Brummie father. I'm British.
When devolution happened I thought it was a big mistake that would only lead inexorably towards jingoism and the break up of the union. That leaves us all poorer.
Brexit and Covid are hammering more nails into the coffin.
At the end of the days we're ball people. O don't give a stuff what language they speak, what colour their skin is or which side of some notional border they live. We're all just people with largely the same hopes and dreams.

I think all this nationalistic nonsense is causing that to be forgotten.

I guess I'm getting old, I don't like the way the world is going and yearn for the simpler times of my younger days.
I think devolution was perfectly reasonable, but that a flaw has emerged in the model of devolution implemented. Basically it said "devolve everything except A, B, C, D &E which will be reserved to central government". As nobody foresaw the pandemic, the civil servants and governments of the day overlooked the desirability to keep pandemic-handling as a reserved matter to be decided by central government.
 
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John Luxton

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I think devolution was perfectly reasonable, but that a flaw has emerged in the model of devolution implemented. Basically it said "devolve everything except A, B, C, D &E which will be reserved to central government". As nobody foresaw the pandemic, the civil servants and governments of the day overlooked the desirability to keep pandemic-handling as a reserved matter to be decided by central government.
Yes I think you a right.

Though I live in England close to the Welsh border I have always been sympathetic to the idea of Welsh devolution.

Basically whilst Wales can control its own health policy they should not have control over any form of movement restrictions being it health or for any other reason.

For that a UK wide policy should be controlled from Westminster until the devolved powers become sovereign nations if ever.

Strange thing is I never considered myself a unionist - but my views have changed considerably since Covid arrived with Wales, Scotland, NI and England all pursuing different policies and nationalist factions trying to play one off against the other.

For all of us frustrated English wanting to go into Wales there are many citizens of Wales who have had travel plans disrupted too by being either in a lockdown area or being prevented from travelling to many Tier 2 and 3 places in England or sailing over to Ireland or driving up to locations in Scotland.

I know in some nationalist areas Drakeford's policies have been well received but in the more populated areas of the south and north which tend to favour mainstream UK politics I wonder if this will see Labour get the order of the boot come the next Assembly elections?

Furthermore the population of the Isle of Man which has always had a separate government are trapped.

If they leave they have to quarantine for 14 days. Contravention of their rules is the harshest in the British isles with anyone breaking them getting 14 days in HMP Jurby! There have been people jailed for just going to the shops! Their government is being overtly repressive and needs taking to task. What might get you a token fine in Wales gets two weeks in jail on the Isle of Man and the natives seem only to willing to inform too.

Last week some railway workers allowed in to do work for a couple of days on the Manx Electric Railway on the understanding that they went from ship to accommodation did their work and then returned back to UK. They stopped off at Tesco apparently en-route to their accommodation and received two weeks in jail.

What a way to treat people

John
 
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317 forever

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Yes I think you a right.

Though I live in England close to the Welsh border I have always been sympathetic to the idea of Welsh devolution.

Basically whilst Wales can control its own health policy they should not have control over any form of movement restrictions being it health or for any other reason.

For that a UK wide policy should be controlled from Westminster until the devolved powers become sovereign nations if ever.

Strange thing is I never considered myself a unionist - but my views have changed considerably since Covid arrived with Wales, Scotland, NI and England all pursuing different policies and nationalist factions trying to play one off against the other.

For all of us frustrated English wanting to go into Wales there are many citizens of Wales who have had travel plans disrupted too by being either in a lockdown area or being prevented from travelling to many Tier 2 and 3 places in England or sailing over to Ireland or driving up to locations in Scotland.

Furthermore the population of the Isle of Man which has always had a separate government are trapped. If they leave they have to quarantine for 14 days. Contravention of their rules is the harshest in the British isles with anyone breaking them getting 14 days in HMP Jurby! There have been people jailed for just going to the shops!

I know in some nationalist areas Drakeford's policies have been well received but in the more populated areas of the south and north which tend to favour mainstream UK politics I wonder if this will see Labour get the order of the boot come the next Assembly elections?

John
We could have a scenario where the Conservatives make progress in Wales next year for being more libertarian, but Labour make progress in England in 2024 for being more competent.

What is also bizarre about devolved assemblies banning visits from Covid hotspots elsewhere is that in international terms we are the same country but in national terms we are different countries.
 

John Luxton

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We could have a scenario where the Conservatives make progress in Wales next year for being more libertarian, but Labour make progress in England in 2024 for being more competent.

What is also bizarre about devolved assemblies banning visits from Covid hotspots elsewhere is that in international terms we are the same country but in national terms we are different countries.
Could well happen as you suggest. Quite a lot of Wales is blue as it is. I wonder if Wales will end up in court over these restrictions. JRM claims they are unconstitutional. That needs investigating as I don't think anyone ever imagined this sort of scenario ever happening.
 

krus_aragon

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I wonder if Wales will end up in court over these restrictions. JRM claims they are unconstitutional.
I'd be surprised if that were to happen: I felt his comments were akin to bluster.

I would be interested in an explanation of why he felt this current restriction warranted speaking out against, but kept quiet about the situation in spring/summer. Back then, all residents of England could travel anywhere throughout their country, but no more than five miles* into Wales (when the Welsh were told to travel no more than five miles from their home). I don't recall any constitutional objections back then.

*excepting good reasons/special cases, then and also now
 

adc82140

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April was different. The whole of Wales was subject to a 5 mile limit, and by default that meant that anyone from England, or indeed anywhere else in the world could only travel 5 miles from the border/port/Airport. This was to comply with the law in Wales, which applied to everyone. This time they are trying to say that people from certain parts of England cannot enter areas not subject to local lockdowns, despite everyone else not being subject to travel restrictions. If they want to introduce a 5 mile limit countrywide again, then Rees Mogg et al have no grounds for complaint. But I bet the residents of rural parts with low Covid incidence would.
 

krus_aragon

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This time they are trying to say that people from certain parts of England cannot enter areas not subject to local lockdowns, despite everyone else not being subject to travel restrictions. If they want to introduce a 5 mile limit countrywide again, then Rees Mogg et al have no grounds for complaint. But I bet the residents of rural parts with low Covid incidence would.
Equally, residents of Conwy, Denbighshire, Flintshire and Wrexham, plus numerous counties down south, can't enter areas not subject to local lockdowns (excepting reasonable excuses). They can't even visit each others' counties, or leave Wales! I don't recall Mr Rees-Mogg complaining about the constitutionality of that when it was introduced.

At the bottom of this, we have one administration that believes that areas with local lockdowns should have legal restrictions on moving in and out of them, whereas another administration doesn't. If both administrations had imposed movement restrictions on lockdown areas (or neither), we wouldn't have this problem.

Perhaps Mr. Rees-Mogg's government declined to do that in England because it believes any such action to be unconstitutional. If so, I'd love to hear the rationale and details, but I haven't stumbled across any such explanations made public yet.

Either way, with nationwide restrictions expected in Wales within a matter of days, this argument will soon be overcome by events.

(One thing that certainly wouldn't be unconstitutional would be for Westminster to take unilateral action and pass an act "notwithstanding the Government of Wales Act 2006 etc." to get its own way and override the Senedd's actions. Westminster is still the sovereign parliament, after all. It would, however, be a massive breach of convention and really put the cat among the pigeons!)
 

A Challenge

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I know in some nationalist areas Drakeford's policies have been well received but in the more populated areas of the south and north which tend to favour mainstream UK politics I wonder if this will see Labour get the order of the boot come the next Assembly elections?
The problem there is who would replace them? If they voting on the basis of not liking the Welsh Labour party because of mishandling coronavirus, they won't want to vote for the Conservatives either - and if they are trying to vote Welsh Labour because of links with the UK they wouldn't vote for Plaid Cymru either.
 

Dai Corner

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The problem there is who would replace them? If they voting on the basis of not liking the Welsh Labour party because of mishandling coronavirus, they won't want to vote for the Conservatives either - and if they are trying to vote Welsh Labour because of links with the UK they wouldn't vote for Plaid Cymru either.
Abolish the Welsh Assembly Party, Brexit Party, UKIP or Lib Dems as things stand at the moment.
 

neilmc

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I'm in the Tier 1 island of Cumbria so I could currently go to the rural areas of Wales without breaking any rules in either country. However, given the general nastiness and paranoia around, I most certainly will not and in fact I can see no reason why I would ever set foot in Wales again for the rest of my life. Same goes for the Isle Of Man of course.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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We could have a scenario where the Conservatives make progress in Wales next year for being more libertarian, but Labour make progress in England in 2024 for being more competent.

What is also bizarre about devolved assemblies banning visits from Covid hotspots elsewhere is that in international terms we are the same country but in national terms we are different countries.
It's the same in many other countries.
Canada and Australia both have province/state controls (their local gov is more devolved than ours).
France is much the same with local lockdowns. Germany, like most federal states, has controls at Land/state level.
Federal is a dirty word at Westminster, but we are heading rapidly in that direction to keep any sort of Union together.

Wales is stuck with a large lefty Lab/Plaid bloc in its urban areas which is unlikely to be shifted, even if much of Wales geographically is Con/Lib.
Having said that the current Drakeford WG has a Lib Dem as Education Minister (Kirsty Williams, who is much more popular than Gavin Williamson).
 

John Luxton

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I'm in the Tier 1 island of Cumbria so I could currently go to the rural areas of Wales without breaking any rules in either country. However, given the general nastiness and paranoia around, I most certainly will not and in fact I can see no reason why I would ever set foot in Wales again for the rest of my life. Same goes for the Isle Of Man of course.
Obviously you are not into narrow gauge railways ruling out Wales and the IoM is a non starter for me. To be honest I don't see the people themselves as being a problem apart from a vocal minority who appear to populate the newspaper comments columns, particularly in Wales. Living close to the Welsh border means that I follow the news both sides and engage in comments sections their papers.

There are quite a few people from Wales telling some of the hot heads to cool it because of the negative images they are creating.

I would imagine most of the animosity comes from people who are either retired or work in safe jobs and are not part of the tourist economy.

John
 

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