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Wales to enter "circuit break" lockdown from Friday 23 October to Monday 9 November

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DelayRepay

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This seems over the top.

In the last lockdown I bought a new microwave from Tesco. I guess I could have ordered one from Amazon but I wanted one quickly. My old one was broken. Is a new microwave essential? Possibly, if you don't have any other means of heating food. Did I increase the risk of Covid by going to a Supermarket, waiting in the queue, keeping my distance, following the one way system (as was in place at the time)? The only difference was that I put one extra item in my trolley as well as the essential food. And today it would be even less of a risk due to the mask requirement.

If I hadn't been able to get one from Tesco then Amazon or Argos would have got my business so the argument that it's unfair on smaller businesses is not valid, unless you are also going to ban deliveries during the lockdown.
 
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Carlisle

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"Non-essential item in bagging area"
Sounds like some politicians are hungry for the perceived unity of the first lockdown & don’t fully appreciate. the majority might now feel they’ve been there & done that already for at least 3 months & understand it wasn’t really that successful, so can we please move on.
 
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nedchester

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OMG here we go...

Having said that, perhaps the intent behind this is to avoid penalising local shops. One of the criticisms last time was that supermarkets were still able to benefit from things like clothes sales, whereas small shops weren’t. But on the other hand if you urgently need an item of clothing...

Maybe Drakeford has shares in online retailers because that’s what will happen. It will also cause widespread resentment from a population that he needs support from.

Living where I do (near Chester) I can see how porous the border is between Wales and England with multiple crossing points. I can see those crossing points being very busy over the next couple of weeks.
 

Smidster

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I am not going to pretend to be in favour of the "Fire Break" but even so this stuff around supermarkets is just madness and screams of a leader who really has no trust in his citizens to be responsible - Back in March there were not hordes of people going for a day out at the Tesco electronics section and gives store workers and police something else that is completely frivolous to worry about at a time that is already incredibly difficult for them (and for the police cannot help with community cohesion in the long run)

And what about non-essential food? I could make the argument that selling chocolate or biscuits it non-essential - also a Covid risk factor! Maybe just close absolutely everything, lock everyone in the home for two weeks and have Government approved food parcels (Though of course the idea of feeding the starving wouldn't fly in England) delivered for everyone with those who leave the house shot on site. :rolleyes:

And if he is claiming to be trying to protect the High Street all it does it send more people on-line and you will find that once they have done something on-line not many will go back due to cost and convenience.
 

krus_aragon

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I'm detecting a distinct direction in the opinion on this thread. Nevertheless, I'm broadly supportive of these actions.

I don't intend to to argue or refute any of the (numerous) posts above, but I will share some of my thoughts:

  • The Welsh Government, like other governments, have been saying for a long time that they wanted to keep schools open if at all possible. Given that, if they were to implement a short closure, it makes sense to do it now, overlapping with the half-term break.
  • The county-based Local Lockdowns, generally implemented when cases rose above "50 per 100,000 over 7 days", have arguably succeeded in slowing the increase in case rates in many counties, but they haven't been enough to bring them back down below that threshold. (Caerphilly, the first into lockdown, saw their case numbers go right down from ~130 to ~40, but they've since risen again to 130 during October.) See https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1318919521437163520/photo/1 for a convenient graph of recent rolling averages.
  • All but one of the counties of Wales are above that 50 threshold, or approaching it. (Only Ceredigion remains well below.) If the Government hadn't been busy planning for this Firebreak lockdown, they'd have been adding the likes of Monmouthshire, Torfaen, and Anglesey to the Local Lockdown list: we'd have ended up with the vast majority of councils under restrictions.
  • England apparently considers 100 cases per 100,000 to be the threshold for moving from tier 1 to tier 2. This feels high to me, as Wales has been using a threshold of 50, but I understand that observers from the other side of the dyke more used to the 100 threshold may consider 50 to be too low. (Then again, the Wales-wide average is about 150 at the moment.)
  • WG Ministers have said that they won't be able to decide how much this firebreak has had until after it's ended, because of the lag in infections, arrival of symptoms, and hospitalisations. If it's worked, the various rates will be dropping after we've reopened. For that reason, I'm not concerned about a sneaky extension to this period. I do, ohwever, foresee something similar happening in December/January: that's the next time that schools will be closed, and a lot of people will be taking holiday from work anyway. It's just the issue of visiting other family and friends over Christmas that needs to be resolved. A few ministers have already been saying that the "can't rule out" having to do this, so it seems they're laying the groundwork and managing the public's expectations. If that happens, and it buys us time until, say, February half term, then the advent of a vaccine and/or improved weather should help things.
  • I know England's system is quite newly implemented, and still bedding in (with growing pains), but I can't see a strategy in Westminster's actions for getting through this winter. Maybe it's there, but I haven't twigged onto it. (As for Scotland and NI, I don't hear enough detail about their plans on national radio etc., so I can't give an informed opinion there.)
 

Bletchleyite

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One thing about these "short sharp lockdowns" is that I think you will get more compliance. If you leave something in place for a long period, compliance drifts.

Ever been on a plane where it's a bit rough? I've seen two approaches to that. European airlines tend to put the seatbelt signs on when it gets particularly bad (not just light chop) and they enforce it strictly and most people behave. American Airlines, when I used them, put it on for the whole flight, and everyone totally ignored it. I think Air Canada were the same.

One of the many reasons this could work much better than having "level 3" type measures the whole time.
 

DB

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One thing about these "short sharp lockdowns" is that I think you will get more compliance. If you leave something in place for a long period, compliance drifts.

It will be interesting to see, but I'm not convinced this will be the case, other than where people are actually prvented from doing things (e.g. by closing shops).
 

Smidster

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One thing about these "short sharp lockdowns" is that I think you will get more compliance. If you leave something in place for a long period, compliance drifts.

Ever been on a plane where it's a bit rough? I've seen two approaches to that. European airlines tend to put the seatbelt signs on when it gets particularly bad (not just light chop) and they enforce it strictly and most people behave. American Airlines, when I used them, put it on for the whole flight, and everyone totally ignored it. I think Air Canada were the same.

One of the many reasons this could work much better than having "level 3" type measures the whole time.

I think that is true...but only if used once and there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

If it gets you in a position where you have 2 horrible weeks and then a much lower level of restriction than you had before the "fire break" then I think you can get the public on board with that. If it is 17 days of misery than back to where you were yesterday for the rest of Winter (with maybe another fire break in January) then that is much more difficult for the public to get behind.
 

RomeoCharlie71

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One thing about these "short sharp lockdowns" is that I think you will get more compliance. If you leave something in place for a long period, compliance drifts.
I'm sure that this compliance you speak of will quickly drift away if Mr Drakeford decides to extend the "firebreak" (much like what Sturgeon has done up here in Scotland).
 

Bletchleyite

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I think that is true...but only if used once and there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

If it gets you in a position where you have 2 horrible weeks and then a much lower level of restriction than you had before the "fire break" then I think you can get the public on board with that. If it is 17 days of misery than back to where you were yesterday for the rest of Winter (with maybe another fire break in January) then that is much more difficult for the public to get behind.

I would vastly prefer a 2 week "firebreak" every 2-3 months but restrictions like the summer in between than continuous "level 3" restrictions.
 

Yew

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Indeed, the whole premise of firebreaks is that they are time-limited; if this premise is broken, then it's just a lockdown by stealth.

I would vastly prefer a 2 week "firebreak" every 2-3 months but restrictions like the summer in between than continuous "level 3" restrictions.
I don't think that's a realistic option though?
 

yorkie

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I'm detecting a distinct direction in the opinion on this thread. Nevertheless, I'm broadly supportive of these actions.
I am guessing you have a secure job that perhaps involves working from home or for which you will still be paid?

I don't intend to to argue or refute any of the (numerous) posts above, but I will share some of my thoughts:

  • The Welsh Government, like other governments, have been saying for a long time that they wanted to keep schools open if at all possible. Given that, if they were to implement a short closure, it makes sense to do it now, overlapping with the half-term break.
They're still closing schools for an extra week, but I don't see how this is a reason to do it.
  • The county-based Local Lockdowns, generally implemented when cases rose above "50 per 100,000 over 7 days", have arguably succeeded in slowing the increase in case rates in many counties, but they haven't been enough to bring them back down below that threshold. (Caerphilly, the first into lockdown, saw their case numbers go right down from ~130 to ~40, but they've since risen again to 130 during October.) See https://twitter.com/foxy_michael/status/1318919521437163520/photo/1 for a convenient graph of recent rolling averages.
I don't think lockdowns are actually that effective; a lot of evidence has been gathered regarding lockdown effectiveness all over the world, and what they tend to do is delay the inevitable, and even then only to a limited extent.

The lockdown in Victoria, Australia had to be extended many times, despite the weather there being not as cold as our Winters, and despite starting from a relatively low number of cases, and it has had a devastating impact in other areas.

The UK wide lockdown didn't really bring cases down for several weeks, and when the numbers really came down it coincided with good weather. When we were opening things up, cases continued to decline.


  • All but one of the counties of Wales are above that 50 threshold, or approaching it. (Only Ceredigion remains well below.) If the Government hadn't been busy planning for this Firebreak lockdown, they'd have been adding the likes of Monmouthshire, Torfaen, and Anglesey to the Local Lockdown list: we'd have ended up with the vast majority of councils under restrictions.
This is just kicking the can down the road; it's total reliance on a vaccine being available soon, and if you intend to keep numbers low, you are going to have to keep locking down again and again!
  • England apparently considers 100 cases per 100,000 to be the threshold for moving from tier 1 to tier 2. This feels high to me, as Wales has been using a threshold of 50, but I understand that observers from the other side of the dyke more used to the 100 threshold may consider 50 to be too low. (Then again, the Wales-wide average is about 150 at the moment.)
It depends on what your strategy is; if you implement restrictions at a low number, it's easier to keep them low, but it will take much longer to build up immunity (the population under 50 are going to have to build up immunity naturally by infections rather than by vaccinations, based on current vaccination policy) and it's going to mean you have to keep locking down to keep them low.

  • WG Ministers have said that they won't be able to decide how much this firebreak has had until after it's ended, because of the lag in infections, arrival of symptoms, and hospitalisations. If it's worked, the various rates will be dropping after we've reopened. For that reason, I'm not concerned about a sneaky extension to this period.
While the WG have lost all credibility in the eyes of many people, they would lose even more if they extended it, having made it clear that they won't do so. So I agree with you that they won't extend it.

I'm sure they will be exaggerating how successful it was.
  • I do, ohwever, foresee something similar happening in December/January: that's the next time that schools will be closed, and a lot of people will be taking holiday from work anyway. It's just the issue of visiting other family and friends over Christmas that needs to be resolved. A few ministers have already been saying that the "can't rule out" having to do this, so it seems they're laying the groundwork and managing the public's expectations. If that happens, and it buys us time until, say, February half term, then the advent of a vaccine and/or improved weather should help things.
We can't live in this state until February. I do think their plan is to allow people to see friends/family at Christmas but I am not really sure that harsh restrictions before/after this period is really suitable and I am not sure how people of other faiths would view this if Christmas does get special treatment (but it's probably too early to discuss that now as we are pre-empting any potential actions at this point).

  • I know England's system is quite newly implemented, and still bedding in (with growing pains), but I can't see a strategy in Westminster's actions for getting through this winter. Maybe it's there, but I haven't twigged onto it. (As for Scotland and NI, I don't hear enough detail about their plans on national radio etc., so I can't give an informed opinion there.)
The strategy overall appears to be to reduce infections until a vaccine becomes available, but in Wales and Scotland there is a focus on really harsh measures to keep infections really low. I have my doubts about the effectiveness of those measures in their ability to achieve their intended purpose, I also have doubts that the intended purpose is actually morally right or worthwhile, and the question over whether or not our society can recover from such draconian restrictions for such an extended period of time is a very serious threat in my opinion, which the pro-lockdown brigade are not particularly interested in or concerned about. I find that frightening.
 

Dai Corner

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The firebreak reminds me of my schooldays when we were given detention as a punishment. I wonder if that's how the Welsh Government (privately) views it?
 

Bletchleyite

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The firebreak reminds me of my schooldays when we were given detention as a punishment. I wonder if that's how the Welsh Government (privately) views it?

I doubt it, I think he genuinely thinks it will work[1] - and I agree with him.

[1] To bring cases down better than having long-term weaker measures.
 

Yew

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I doubt it, I think he genuinely thinks it will work[1] - and I agree with him.

[1] To bring cases down better than having long-term weaker measures.
Even the most optimistic predictions don't suggest that 2 weeks would buy two months though.
 

Dai Corner

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I doubt it, I think he genuinely thinks it will work[1] - and I agree with him.

[1] To bring cases down better than having long-term weaker measures.

Rather like my teachers genuinely thought detention would improve our behaviour?

Making us order items deemed non-essential online and wait a day or two for them instead of buying them locally at the same time as our bread and milk definitely feels like a punishment to me.
 

Bletchleyite

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Making us order items deemed non-essential online and wait a day or two for them instead of buying them locally at the same time as our bread and milk definitely feels like a punishment to me.

You need to minimise the amount you leave the home. It's as simple as that.

They'd close food shops too if the delivery infrastructure was adequate to allow it.
 

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I doubt it, I think he genuinely thinks it will work[1] - and I agree with him.

[1] To bring cases down better than having long-term weaker measures.

I don’t get how anyone thinks two weeks will work, when back in March it took much longer than that to “put the brakes on” (as JVT put it).

Scotland already seems to be extending.
 

DB

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I don’t get how anyone thinks two weeks will work, when back in March it took much longer than that to “put the brakes on” (as JVT put it).

Scotland already seems to be extending.

And let's remember that back in March it was the tail end of the respiratory virus season, so it's not clear whether the measures actually did much at all or whether the tail-off would have happened anyway. We are now heading back into the respiratory virus season.
 

bramling

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Rather like my teachers genuinely thought detention would improve our behaviour?

Making us order items deemed non-essential online and wait a day or two for them instead of buying them locally at the same time as our bread and milk definitely feels like a punishment to me.

I have a suspicion it’s to address the issue that small places can’t trade but somewhere like Tesco’s can sell the same items, so it for example someone wants a coat they have to defer the purchase and thus the small shop stands a chance of getting the business. If so then there’s a certain logic behind it, even if the whole situation is bonkers.

There’s no doubt that places like Tesco which sell everything, especially in the Extra stores, did a bit too well out of the situation, to the detriment of small shops. That situation wasn’t really satisfactory.
 

DB

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I have a suspicion it’s to address the issue that small places can’t trade but somewhere like Tesco’s can sell the same items, so it for example someone wants a coat they have to defer the purchase and thus the small shop stands a chance of getting the business. If so then there’s a certain logic behind it, even if the whole situation is bonkers.

But equally, they may well just order it online from Amazon.
 

bramling

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But equally, they may well just order it online from Amazon.

Very true. As I say the whole situation is loopy.

(As an aside, I have to say my own Amazon use has gone through the roof recently. Unfortunately their offering really has improved over the last couple of years - delivery is now pretty quick in the majority of cases, and there’s none of the issues like turning up to a shop and find they don’t have what you want or stock is damaged / out of stock. I would still prefer to buy from a shop, but they’re going to have to up their game to stay in business I think.)
 
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Bletchleyite

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Hence my reference to detention!

Rather different reasons. And frankly, anyone who doesn't think staying at home and not interacting with people doesn't stop the virus from spreading then they're in cloud cuckoo land and not worth debating with. The arguments against that that have any viability are economic and mental health related - it clearly, indisputably does work.
 

DB

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Rather different reasons. And frankly, anyone who doesn't think staying at home and not interacting with people doesn't stop the virus from spreading then they're in cloud cuckoo land and not worth debating with. The arguments against that that have any viability are economic and mental health related - it clearly, indisputably does work.

The other main argument is what the purpose is in doing so - it's based on the risky assumption that there will be a fairly effective vaccine available fairly soon.
 

Dai Corner

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Rather different reasons. And frankly, anyone who doesn't think staying at home and not interacting with people doesn't stop the virus from spreading then they're in cloud cuckoo land and not worth debating with. The arguments against that that have any viability are economic and mental health related - it clearly, indisputably does work.

I've never heard of an outbreak being linked to a shop, have you? Hospitals, food processing factories and the occasional pub, yes, but not shops. And I don't accept that buying a pair of socks carries any more risk than buying a loaf of bread, especially if done in the same visit to a shop.
 

Bletchleyite

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The other main argument is what the purpose is in doing so - it's based on the risky assumption that there will be a fairly effective vaccine available fairly soon.

Yes and no. If there proves not to be a vaccine, there will need to be measures for the foreseeable, much as I know you don't like it, at least until the virus evolves to stop causing quite so much trouble.

I've never heard of an outbreak being linked to a shop, have you? Hospitals, food processing factories and the occasional pub, yes, but not shops. And I don't accept that buying a pair of socks carries any more risk than buying a loaf of bread, especially if done in the same visit to a shop.

It's difficult to link outbreaks like that unless you get loads from one place, which you won't for a shop as you don't come into contact with that many people.

But that misses the point - the idea is basically "stay at home unless you'll die if you don't". You'll die if you can't buy food, you'll die if you can't earn money to buy food, and your health will certainly suffer if you don't exercise. The more things you can buy, the more reasons you have to leave home.
 

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Very true. As I say the whole situation is loopy.

(As an aside, I have to say my own Amazon use has gone through the roof recently. Unfortunately their offering really has improved over the last couple of years - delivery is now pretty quick in the majority of cases, and there’s none of the issues like turning up to a shop and find they don’t have what you want or stock is damaged / out of stock. I would still prefer to buy from a shop, but they’re going to have to up their game to stay in business I think.)
I've found Amazon a lot worse since March. Prime delivery is next to useless, customer service is awful, they've less reliably got stuff in stock. I've largely given up buying things altogether if I can't get them on my Sainsbury's delivery.

The trouble is that lockdown itself is a response to a medical problem which is perceived to be extremely threatening. I think it's the wrong response to an overstated problem, but I can see why people might be convinced that it was the right thing to do.

Making arbitrary judgements about what is essential and what isn't, and then locking down access to those things in order to be "fair" to what are for the most part still large chain businesses doesn't really strike me as such an easy sale. It feels more like kneejerk 1970s industrial policy.
 

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Yes and no. If there proves not to be a vaccine, there will need to be measures for the foreseeable, much as I know you don't like it, at least until the virus evolves to stop causing quite so much trouble.

That's where we disagree - there simply can't be measures like this "for the foreseeable" because the economic and other impacts are simply too significant.

And it wouldn't achieve anything anyway - the virus would get to everyone in time, it may just take a bit longer.
 

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That's where we disagree - there simply can't be measures like this "for the foreseeable" because the economic and other impacts are simply too significant.

And it wouldn't achieve anything anyway - the virus would get to everyone in time, it may just take a bit longer.
Precisely.

Nicola Sturgeon confirming today’s new 5 level system will remain until a vaccine, and if that means indefinite rules, so be it (at least that’s how I read what she said)
 
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