Walking into First Class carriages

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Gathursty

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Not sure whether it's a general question or in the fares section mods...

Anyway, I often wonder this on my uni commute. I always buy a standard class ticket and a few minutes before departing the train I walk towards the back of the train so I can just walk straight across into the station building rather than from one end of the platform to the other as a preference. Walking to the back of the train involves going to the First Class carriages. I have no intention on sitting on the seats, just to get to the vestibules. I seem to get a funny reaction by staff on the walk who second guess I'm not a First Class person and some say go back, but a lot of the time there's no staff in these carriages but what is the official line.... Am I allowed to go into First Class in this manner?

If you're wondering, it's Virgin Trains. Feel free to add other TOCs stances on this.
 
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hairyhandedfool

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Official line? No, you cannot go into first class whilst holding a standard class ticket. In some cases it is generally accepted that you can walk through first class to reach additional standard class seating areas whilst the train is moving.

First class tickets give you no more right to a seat than Standard class tickets and so standing in first class (even in the vestibules of a first class coach) requires a first class ticket.
 

wibble

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EMT have labelled some of the First Class vestibules to state that it's for "First Class ticket holders only".
 

calc7

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Not to mention at stations like London Euston, the position of First Class (much nearer the concourse and Tube) is a value-adding aspect for the train company and is well-marketed.
 

jonb

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I've done this a few times on approach to Euston (mostly at the weekends) and have never had any trouble when standing in the vestibules of FC...
 

calc7

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I would expect much less of a problem at weekends as the services are leisure-focused (people paying £15 for a bigger seat, WiFi and a few snacks) as opposed to the business focus of First Class in the weeks which commands a huge price premium.
 

Failed Unit

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I notice on the Reading - London HSTs in the rush hour they have lots of people standing in the 1st vestables. I wonder if the gaurds ever tell them they have lots of standing room in coach A
 

jopsuk

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On units where First Class is the middle section of an intermediate carriage surely thoroughfare has to be permitted, eg to reach toilets?
 

Brucey

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On units where First Class is the middle section of an intermediate carriage surely thoroughfare has to be permitted, eg to reach toilets?

On the SWT 450s, signage actually directs you through 1st class to reach the toilets.
 
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swt_passenger

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I notice on the Reading - London HSTs in the rush hour they have lots of people standing in the 1st vestables. I wonder if the gaurds ever tell them they have lots of standing room in coach A

An FGW guard who posts here has reported saying exactly that on a number of occasions.
 

Failed Unit

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An FGW guard who posts here has reported saying exactly that on a number of occasions.

But does he move them? I have never seen a gaurd check tickets between reading and London. (but I don't travel that often to really be a good judge). I guess it must happen as everyone would be sat in 1st otherwise.
 

yorkie

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But does he move them?
Judge for yourself... ;)
Funnily enough, when clearing out the First Class vestibules .... the first thing that get's said is "You are the only person who does this" or "This has never happened before". But it get's said to all of us! It even gets said by people I saw a few days earlier. Is this a symptom of some mass amnesia?
If there was a delay and someone had a connection, that could be explained and the guard probably wouldn't mind. But some regular commuters do this on a regular basis for no good reason and continue to do it when instructed not to.

A year and a half ago instructions were given out by FGW to enforce the rule.
In FGW, the entire carriage, including doorways and vestibule areas is First Class. Para 39 of the CoC
If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in first class accommodation
without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the
carriage), you will have to pay:
(a) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket
for the accommodation you have used; or
(b) where Condition 4 (b) applies, a Penalty Fare.
We've been told to enforce it now, and although the message is starting to get through (except for one to$$er with a folding bike from Reading in the mornings, who is a slow learner), there were LOTS of arguments in the beginning.
 

Aictos

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EMT have labelled some of the First Class vestibules to state that it's for "First Class ticket holders only".

All East Coast sets are clearly labelled that the vestibules in the First Class carriages are for First Class passengers only.
 

lyesbkz

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All East Coast sets are clearly labelled that the vestibules in the First Class carriages are for First Class passengers only.

And if I remember correctly, there is a sign where the classes change saying "First class ticket holders only beyond this point" or something to that effect.
 

Failed Unit

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In response to Yorkies, thanks for that. I wish I had my ticket checked in first on FGW. As I have taken the trouble to buy it and have stuck to the correct train, it is nice when it gets checked in a strange way. As I said, i suspect it is checked regularly otherwise 1st will just a free for all like it is in Scotland between Croy and Glasgow or Linlithgow and Edinburgh.

Had my ticket checked on SWT the other day (only ever seen 1st checked). He had never heard of my origin so said jokingly "haven't got a clue if that is valid or not". Bet he checked later so now knows where linlithgow is ;)
 

wintonian

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On the SWT 450s, signage actually directs you through 1st class to reach the toilets.

and indeed if you got on a the back of an 8 card 450 and want get off somewhere with short platforms walking through is required to meet the T&C's of you ticket.

I was going to use Shawford as an example of getting of from the front door only, but I suddenly remembered that it can take 450's just not 444's, but you ge the idea.
 

asylumxl

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I expect First Class vestibules to have only the finest carpets, safety signage lined with gold and all handles made from ivory...

Oh no wait, you're just standing next to another smelly ****ter.
 

exile

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And if I remember correctly, there is a sign where the classes change saying "First class ticket holders only beyond this point" or something to that effect.
No, that was the Titanic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In many trains 1st class is IN BETWEEN 2 standard class sections so it's impossible to reach toilets etc without walking through 1st class. Or you may need to walk through 1st class if you wish to contact the conductor eg to buy a ticket or to report an incident. It's only sitting and standing in 1st class that requires a 1st class ticket. Of course I remember the good old days when you could sit in 1st class (in effect) if you ate a meal on board.
 

AlterEgo

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On a train with properly separated First Class (ie: not on a 350 with First in the centre) there is absolutely no reason to walk through First Class. It's incredibly ill-mannered and totally unnecessary. Really, if your day revolves around having a 100m headstart to get to the Tube then I worry about your priorities in life.
 

RJ

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On a train with properly separated First Class (ie: not on a 350 with First in the centre) there is absolutely no reason to walk through First Class. It's incredibly ill-mannered and totally unnecessary. Really, if your day revolves around having a 100m headstart to get to the Tube then I worry about your priorities in life.

Unless you're on a Voyager or Pendo with no working toilets in Standard. Having racked up more Pendo miles than many on here, I have to say it happens from time to time!

That said, many a passenger have demonstrated that they need mollycoddling/babysitting/supervision or a mix of the three by doing so because they're nothing there to stop them. That's the way it is unfortunately!
 

All Line Rover

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On a train with properly separated First Class (ie: not on a 350 with First in the centre) there is absolutely no reason to walk through First Class. It's incredibly ill-mannered and totally unnecessary. Really, if your day revolves around having a 100m headstart to get to the Tube then I worry about your priorities in life.

Even though today I had to walk through First Class on a Super Voyager to obtain an excess fare from the TM?

It's sometimes unavoidable to walk through First Class with a Standard Class ticket, but the key is when I say walk through - i.e. not actually making use of any First Class perks. If you enter First Class for the purpose of being a bit closer to the concourse when you alight, you have not chosen to "walk through" First Class, but to STAND in First Class - you are making use of a First Class "perk."

At the end of the day, I'd expect TM's to use their common sense.
 

Temple Meads

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It's something I've only done once, and that was at Reading, where the only way to be sure of boarding the train before it departed was to get into a First Class coach.

However I walked straight through the First Class coaches into Standard.
 

wintonian

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It's something I've only done once, and that was at Reading, where the only way to be sure of boarding the train before it departed was to get into a First Class coach.

However I walked straight through the First Class coaches into Standard.

I've been instructed at Reading before not to board directly into first class and to board into cattle class and at the time I had a first class ticket. :(
 

LexyBoy

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It's something I've only done once, and that was at Reading, where the only way to be sure of boarding the train before it departed was to get into a First Class coach.

However I walked straight through the First Class coaches into Standard.

I do this practically every other day :oops: In fairness though this is only since trains stop half a mile up platform 7 (née 4); I'm not sacrificing thirty seconds in bed in order to have time to walk along the platform! :lol:
 

SickyNicky

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It's something I've only done once, and that was at Reading, where the only way to be sure of boarding the train before it departed was to get into a First Class coach.

However I walked straight through the First Class coaches into Standard.

You would be amazed (actually, you're probably not) at the number of people who board first class at Paddington for this reason, and then manage to collect a "free" newspaper as they walk through.
 

marks87

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If you enter First Class for the purpose of being a bit closer to the concourse when you alight, you have not chosen to "walk through" First Class, but to STAND in First Class - you are making use of a First Class "perk."
What if you time it perfectly so you walk through First Class and manage to alight the second the door opens, thus gaining the same advantage, but without actually standing? :lol:
 

cuccir

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I think it's pretty clear that, technically, you're breaking the T&Cs of the tickets by being physically present in first class. How is a guard/TM/RPI to know when someone walks through 1st class that they weren't wandering in to use it, then decided to walk through when they saw a member of staff?

Of course, in practice, many people have done it before and I certainly have on TPE 185s, either to get to the toilets or to use the standard class vestibule at the end of the train. I wouldn't expect any guard to have a problem with someone doing this. Where I could imagine people getting in trouble would be if they were doing it to get to the front of a train on an HST, as mentioned previously in this thread. One of the things that EC is charging first class ticket holders for is to be at the front of the train at King's Cross...
 

RJ

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When I did my FC ALR, people on EC services were making their way down to the front of the train from Stevenage and taking a seat. Which was quite annoying as the ambience changed from peaceful to noisy. People blocking up the aisles on Virgin services prevent the on board hosts from shuttling to and from the kitchen whilst clearing up.

As I say, some passengers act like children, doing things like occupying FC when they know they're not meant to and not bothering to buy a ticket if possible before travelling, then don't want to accept any responsibility when they're caught and get done! I honestly can't blame TOCs like FCC for their harsh stance on correcting this kind of behaviour. If adults don't want to behave like adults unless supervised, maybe they will respond to fines and prosecutions instead!
 
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