Walking through first class

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I run the risk of asking a question that's already been discussed, but here we go:

Is there an official (TOC/DfT) and enforceable position on passengers (sorry - we're all customers now) with standard class tickets, walking through first class? I'm particularly thinking of Virgin West Coast services arriving at Euston. Quite often I've gathered my bits/bobs about 5 minutes before arrival and walked through to the front of the train to wait in the vestibule of coach J or K. Never been challenged or stopped - and getting to the front of the four first class carriages before the starting gun is fired at Euston is quite useful.

My general view has been that if you're going to do this, you should do it before most people are starting to ready themselves for arriving at Euston, as neither party wants to be in the way of the other. I've been a standard and first passenger, but anecdotal observation would say that most first passengers aren't bothered about such 'passers-by', whilst a small number have a look of 'how bl**dy dare you!'.
 
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Bletchleyite

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It's rude because you will get in the way of people getting their things and getting ready to get off the train - no matter if it's First or Standard. If you want to sit near the front, take/reserve/pay for a seat near the front. Or spend the additional few minutes to walk down the platform on alighting. Never understood why anyone was in so much of a rush.
 

Agent_c

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My understanding is technically you're now travelling in an area of the train you don't have a ticket for, so is technically verboten.
 

swt_passenger

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It's definitely covered in the conditions of carriage:

If you have a standard class ticket and you travel in first class accommodation without permission (which includes occupying seats or standing in any part of the carriage), you will have to pay:
(i) the difference between the price of that ticket and the price of the first class ticket for the accommodation you have used; or
(ii) where Condition 4 (b) applies, you may be charged a Penalty Fare.

There have been reports of TOCs enforcing this, is it FGW maybe? They went to the trouble of marking the lobby at the first class end of their buffet cars with a yellow stripe IIRC...
 
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What about when the first class compartment is in the middle, such as on LM's 350s? Surely it's quite legitimate to walk through the compartment to, say, find an empty seat/standing space, or a toilet?
 

island

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Walking through without stopping is fine.

Remaining in 1st without a proper ticket is not.

Common sense can be applied.
 

ainsworth74

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As always when this crops up if you walking through first class to access another standard class part of the train (i.e. on a 350 or 185) then that's absolutely 100% fine. In all other situations then it is against the rules and could lead to being asked to pay for a first class ticket (though a more likely outcome is being asked to move back to standard or nothing being done at all).
 

HMS Ark Royal

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Nobody brought me up on this on Saturday - I was stood at the end of the first class coach of a crosscountry service... Indeed, the guard simply checked my ticket, asked what I was doing that day and then moved on.
 

Phil.

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I run the risk of asking a question that's already been discussed, but here we go:

Is there an official (TOC/DfT) and enforceable position on passengers (sorry - we're all customers now) with standard class tickets, walking through first class? I'm particularly thinking of Virgin West Coast services arriving at Euston. Quite often I've gathered my bits/bobs about 5 minutes before arrival and walked through to the front of the train to wait in the vestibule of coach J or K. Never been challenged or stopped - and getting to the front of the four first class carriages before the starting gun is fired at Euston is quite useful.

My general view has been that if you're going to do this, you should do it before most people are starting to ready themselves for arriving at Euston, as neither party wants to be in the way of the other. I've been a standard and first passenger, but anecdotal observation would say that most first passengers aren't bothered about such 'passers-by', whilst a small number have a look of 'how bl**dy dare you!'.

Speak for yourself mate. As a person travelling on a train I am on passage, ergo I am a passenger.
 

swt_passenger

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Walking through without stopping is fine.

Remaining in 1st without a proper ticket is not.

Common sense can be applied.

Hence the bye-laws using that specific word 'remain', having now looked them up as well:

19. Classes of accommodation, reserved seats and sleeping berths
Except with permission from an authorised person, no person shall remain in any seat, berth or any part of a train where a notice indicates that it is reserved for a specified ticket holder or holders of tickets of a specific class, except the holder of a valid ticket entitling him to be in that particular place.
 

SeanG

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It's definitely covered in the conditions of carriage:



There have been reports of TOCs enforcing this, is it FGW maybe? They went to the trouble of marking the lobby at the first class end of their buffet cars with a yellow stripe IIRC...

Perhaps XC need to do this on the Voyagers to stop people standing in the 1st class vestibule to reap the benefits of the free Wi-Fi
 

Agent_c

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Nobody brought me up on this on Saturday - I was stood at the end of the first class coach of a crosscountry service... Indeed, the guard simply checked my ticket, asked what I was doing that day and then moved on.

Don't confuse a lack of enforcement with permission. If you were pulled over for doing 100 in a 60 zone today, saying you did it yesterday without anyone complaining won't endear you to the police....
 

Quakkerillo

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I can understand that standing in the vestibule/seating area isn't accepted, however, the balconies where the doors are should be acceptable, as it is is most countries in Europe. I can't see - as long as you don't block people entering/exiting the train, or passing through access - why this would be a problem.

I have myself walked through 3 first-class carriages to the front of an AGA train from Norwich at London Liverpool street, after I had been severely delayed by a near-hit of a person at Bury St Edmunds, and further delayed by track issues near Colchester.
The only way I would still be able to arrive at my destination without being an hour delayed was by running to Moorgate within 6 minutes (I managed it) and catching a connecting train there.

It may technically have been against the rules, but I don't feel like I've done something bad. I was an hour delayed, and because I did this, I ended up only being 30 minutes late - yet a bit exhausted.
 
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Master29

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Perhaps XC need to do this on the Voyagers to stop people standing in the 1st class vestibule to reap the benefits of the free Wi-Fi

May be if they didn`t have such a big vestibule area the temptation wouldn`t be there, but I take your point. It is taking liberties.
 
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Nobody brought me up on this on Saturday - I was stood at the end of the first class coach of a crosscountry service... Indeed, the guard simply checked my ticket, asked what I was doing that day and then moved on.

Lucky you! The one (and only) time I did that, not knowing that it wasn't allowed, I was treated like utter crap by the typically moody XC droid. Mind, I'd probably be moody if I was stuck on a packed voyager all day.
 

HMS Ark Royal

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Don't confuse a lack of enforcement with permission. If you were pulled over for doing 100 in a 60 zone today, saying you did it yesterday without anyone complaining won't endear you to the police....

Lucky you! The one (and only) time I did that, not knowing that it wasn't allowed, I was treated like utter crap by the typically moody XC droid. Mind, I'd probably be moody if I was stuck on a packed voyager all day.

Well it was a crowded service, so maybe the guard was showing discretion... Either way, it was odd to be a crosscountry 221 for the first time after they'd been set created
 

Mag_seven

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Have there not been a few occasions recently of inspections having been carried out on passengers with standard class tickets alighting from the first class area on AGA services arriving at Liverpool St?
 

bavvo

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So what are the rules if you have a first class ticket and walk through the standard class carriages at the country end terminus?
 

Romilly

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First class tickets are valid in standard class as well as in first class.
 

Eeveevolve

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So technically most of a class 185 users have to use the cramped toilet instead of walking through first class to get to the bigger toilet past first class?? ;)

In all my travels on 185s, I have never had a problem walking through to get to the loo.
 

ainsworth74

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So technically most of a class 185 users have to use the cramped toilet instead of walking through first class to get to the bigger toilet past first class?? ;)

In all my travels on 185s, I have never had a problem walking through to get to the loo.

No, no they do not. As stated up thread as long as you do not remain in 1st class there is no problem.
 
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It's rude because you will get in the way of people getting their things and getting ready to get off the train - no matter if it's First or Standard.

I was quite keen to point out that I always seek to avoid inconveniencing anyone else, by choosing to start by 'journey through the train' just before people start getting up and sorting themselves out:

My general view has been that if you're going to do this, you should do it before most people are starting to ready themselves for arriving at Euston, as neither party wants to be in the way of the other.

It's a finely judged thing which doesn't always work, but most the time I do keep out of anyone else's way I'm pleased to say. A few times I've looked into the next carriage and seen a few folks up and readying themselves - in which case I curtail my passage through the train at whichever vestibule I happen to be in at the time. I have seen some who are less concerned and seem at ease to ask people to move in a somewhat gruff manner, which I think is uncalled for.
 

Agent_c

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No, no they do not. As stated up thread as long as you do not remain in 1st class there is no problem.

Is the toilet first class though, and does using it constitute remaining there?

(purely hypothetical, I'm sure no TOC would go to the insane length of issuing a UFN for a legitimate use of a toilet... The bad press writes itself).
 

221129

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Is the toilet first class though, and does using it constitute remaining there?

(purely hypothetical, I'm sure no TOC would go to the insane length of issuing a UFN for a legitimate use of a toilet... The bad press writes itself).

Well no as it is in Standard class...
 

LowLevel

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GNER used to have a door in the buffet car to prevent the issue. Yes it is a pain in the arse because why should first class passengers who know they're going to be by the stops have to join a queue of standard class passengers to get out of their own carriage? Not to mention the clowns that hang around in the doorways to mooch the wifi or because they can't be arsed to move (looking at you Luton or Bedford folk) and keep activating the pressure pads on HSTs/mk3s.

Supply the staff with brooms to get rid :oops: :p
 
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