Warrington Bank Quay - Llandudno Junction via Crewe

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Y Ddraig Coch, 25 Oct 2016.

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  1. Y Ddraig Coch

    Y Ddraig Coch Member

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    I am travelling to and from Glasgow from Llandudno junction in a few weeks. Cheapest way for me to do this was

    Std open return Llandudno Junction-Warrington Bank Quay

    then two advance tickets to and from Warrington Bank Quay / Glasgow

    On looking at my return train to LLJ on the Sunday from WBQ, it is a bus service to Chester.

    I hate buses. Even if it is only an hour.

    I tried looing at the ATOC routeing guide but it I still am not sure.

    Is my std open return ticket from Warrington to Llandudno Junction valid for me to go via Crewe? I will do this is if it avoids a bus journey and is a valid route.


    Thanks in advance :)
     
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  3. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    National Rail Enquiries is quite happily offering itineraries via Crewe using a flexible ticket.
     
  4. Y Ddraig Coch

    Y Ddraig Coch Member

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    Many Thanks.
     
  5. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    Even a Warrington-Chester Any Permitted ticket is valid via Crewe.
    Useful when the Virgin-ATW connection has failed.
    Or at least, you can avoid having to stare at/sniff the Unilever soap works for an hour, even if you end up on the same train west of Chester.
     
  6. Y Ddraig Coch

    Y Ddraig Coch Member

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    Yes, Unilever would probably raise the price of my ticket by 15% if I stayed on the platform too long!!

    This is good news though for future reference. A return to Crewe from Llandudno Junction is £30.10. A return to Warrington £24.60 so all non advance trips to Crewe will now be booked to Warrington and just get off at Crewe . £6.00 saved. :)
     
  7. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    I suspect we will soon be seeing a review of map permissions in the Warrington/Crewe area... :roll:
     
  8. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Quite. Posting loopholes on here is not sensible. We know full well that they are read and fixed quickly.
     
  9. Y Ddraig Coch

    Y Ddraig Coch Member

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    Seriously? Someone from the relevant department trawls round on here for loopholes? I'm surprised.

    Or is it just conspiracy theories?
     
  10. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    There's no trawling necessary when loopholes are openly advertised. Train companies have commercial interests to protect.

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'conspiracy theories'. That's a very odd comment.
     
  11. 185143

    185143 Established Member

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    Going via Crewe isn't THAT unreasonable-given how frequently VTWC are late and the conmection at Warrington is missed!
     
  12. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Which is a silly side-effect of regulated fares.

    What they should do is:-

    1. Introduce a "route Frodsham" ticket at the present price.
    2. Increase the Any Permitted fares to be equal to the fare from Crewe.

    But I doubt fares regulation will permit it, so we get passenger-unfriendly restrictions instead.
     
  13. Y Ddraig Coch

    Y Ddraig Coch Member

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    Openly advertised....yes on here, which means for someone to realise, as I just have they would need to be trawling through these forums.

    Conspiracy theories, not an odd comment, I was just asking basically, does it actually happen, people check on here for loopholes and fix them or is it just people think that's what happens. ie conspiracy theories.
     
  14. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

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    Beware your ticket is not restriction 8A - no break of journey.
    The off-peak return SVR is so restricted.
    Specifically to stop you doing what you just said.
     
  15. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    8A isn't specifically for that purpose, it's to differentiate from an Anytime. But it certainly has that effect.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    I think there is plenty of evidence that they do look in here for loopholes to block. I have no real issue with them being blocked if an appropriate routed ticket via the more expensive route was added.

    One that I find quite ridiculous along similar lines is that there is no through ticket - none whatsoever - from Ormskirk to Preston on a Sunday. In BR days it was considered reasonable to go via Liverpool on a Sunday as Ormskirk-Preston has no Sunday service, I did it many times, it just wasn't reasonable to break your journey at Wigan while doing so as that would have avoided the higher fare. It is not now Permitted nor is there an easement that I know of. This is silly. They should make the present fares "route Rufford" and add an Any Permitted, with via Liverpool being Permitted by an easement, at the price of Ormskirk to Wigan which is valid that way.

    But the railway prefers to say "can't" rather than to implement an actual fix that would be both to their benefit and to that of the passenger.
     
    Last edited: 26 Oct 2016
  16. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

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    Neil

    In your Ormskirk - Preston Sundays example above, I would not bother with "Route Rufford" fares, as it is only one day of the week that the direct and shortest route journey cannot be made.

    I would suggest introducing an easement along the lines of "Passengers travelling between Ormskirk and Preston on "Route: Any Permitted" may travel via Liverpool Group and St Helens Central on Sundays Only. Break of journey not allowed except to change trains"
     
  17. Y Ddraig Coch

    Y Ddraig Coch Member

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    Looking at the NRCOC online 8a seems to refer to international travel?

    But 16 states

    "16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket. "

    So based on the above I can end /break a journey at an intermediate station unless the ticket seller makes it clear I cannot.

    The ticket seller , online ticket seller in this case makes no such statement and actually sells tickets via Crewe at the same price as a regular LLJ-WBQ return. So I don't see there being any issues.
     
  18. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    The NRCoC have been superseded by the National Rail Conditions of Travel. 8A is a restriction code not a part of the Conditions of Travel (or Carriage) and details of the restriction can be found here.
     
  19. Romilly

    Romilly Established Member

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  20. Y Ddraig Coch

    Y Ddraig Coch Member

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    ok, thanks for the info.

    How do I find out if that specific rule applies to my ticket?

    Edited upon further reading....


    Actually it says

    "Break of journey is not permitted except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities."

    which I would be doing changing trains at Crewe, which we have already established is a valid route.

    So still all good do we think?
     
    Last edited: 27 Oct 2016
  21. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Yes.

    The reference to break of journey was for the poster who said that when travelling to Crewe he would buy a ticket to Warrington and stop/start short - if BoJ is not permitted this arguably isn't either.

    However, as TOCs read here I would expect to see via Crewe blocked for tickets to Warrington very soon. Once this happens (to close any loophole) you won't be OK any more.
     
  22. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    Easiest way is to use brfares.com enter the origin and destination then in the results click on the relevant ticket and it will show you more detail on that specific ticket including the restriction code and what it means.
     
  23. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    What seems more likely to me is that train companies have people whose jobs involve finding out what's happening on social media (including looking at sites like this one), and people who consider what changes should be made to the routeing guide as part of their jobs. These aren't the same people, but they talk to each other, and so things written on here can sometimes affect the behaviour of companies.
     
  24. lemonic

    lemonic Member

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    Actually, some Pricing Managers do read this forum every day at work and so it is no coincidence that loopholes get removed so quickly.
     
  25. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

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    With tomorrow being Friday, that is normally the day that "minor modifications" to the Routeing Guide are made.

    I will be waiting eagerly for tomorrow's update in due course :)
     
  26. Y Ddraig Coch

    Y Ddraig Coch Member

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    My lesson has been learnt......all new "finds" will be kept to myself or PM'd to someone.

    To any pricing managers reading this......do your own work!!! :)
     
  27. ashworth

    ashworth Established Member

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    It must be true. There used to be dozens of fantastic fares available through loopholes all over the country, but most of the best ones, many which have been available for years, have disappeared over the past few years.
    Unfortunately, I do blame posts in this forum for the removal of many of them. Many of these loopholes were only known about and used by a handful of people, but publising them here resulted in them being used by more and more people.

    There was one that I had used regularly for years which enabled me to get a return from some stations in the East Midlands to The North West at half the standard price. Someone then, much to my annoyance, mentioned it here about 4 years ago and it disappeared within days! There was also a fare between the East and West Midlands that I regularly used which also disappeared about 2 years ago, again within days of being mentioned here.

    I still know of, and regularly use a few loopholes, but I now keep them completely to myself.
     
  28. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    I didn't know that. I suppose it doesn't take all that long if you're only skimming it for something specific.
    These things usually take longer than a day, apparently. The route has now been removed for tickets between Warrington and stations between Chester and Holyhead, though.
     
  29. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Point proven that they do read here :)
     
  30. Y Ddraig Coch

    Y Ddraig Coch Member

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    my mouth is well and truly shut from this moment forward regarding any more little "finds"
     
  31. All Line Rover

    All Line Rover Established Member

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    It is remarkable that ATOC manages to get consent from the DfT, which must also consult Transport Focus before making its decision, in such a short timeframe.
     
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