• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Warrington Bank Quay - Llandudno Junction via Crewe

Status
Not open for further replies.

Y Ddraig Coch

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2013
Messages
1,288
I am travelling to and from Glasgow from Llandudno junction in a few weeks. Cheapest way for me to do this was

Std open return Llandudno Junction-Warrington Bank Quay

then two advance tickets to and from Warrington Bank Quay / Glasgow

On looking at my return train to LLJ on the Sunday from WBQ, it is a bus service to Chester.

I hate buses. Even if it is only an hour.

I tried looing at the ATOC routeing guide but it I still am not sure.

Is my std open return ticket from Warrington to Llandudno Junction valid for me to go via Crewe? I will do this is if it avoids a bus journey and is a valid route.


Thanks in advance :)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,536
Location
Redcar
National Rail Enquiries is quite happily offering itineraries via Crewe using a flexible ticket.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,553
Location
Mold, Clwyd
Even a Warrington-Chester Any Permitted ticket is valid via Crewe.
Useful when the Virgin-ATW connection has failed.
Or at least, you can avoid having to stare at/sniff the Unilever soap works for an hour, even if you end up on the same train west of Chester.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2013
Messages
1,288
Even a Warrington-Chester Any Permitted ticket is valid via Crewe.
Useful when the Virgin-ATW connection has failed.
Or at least, you can avoid having to stare at/sniff the Unilever soap works for an hour, even if you end up on the same train west of Chester.


Yes, Unilever would probably raise the price of my ticket by 15% if I stayed on the platform too long!!

This is good news though for future reference. A return to Crewe from Llandudno Junction is £30.10. A return to Warrington £24.60 so all non advance trips to Crewe will now be booked to Warrington and just get off at Crewe . £6.00 saved. :)
 

Merseysider

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
22 Jan 2014
Messages
5,388
Location
Birmingham
I suspect we will soon be seeing a review of map permissions in the Warrington/Crewe area... :roll:
 

Y Ddraig Coch

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2013
Messages
1,288
Quite. Posting loopholes on here is not sensible. We know full well that they are read and fixed quickly.

Seriously? Someone from the relevant department trawls round on here for loopholes? I'm surprised.

Or is it just conspiracy theories?
 

Merseysider

Established Member
Fares Advisor
Joined
22 Jan 2014
Messages
5,388
Location
Birmingham
Seriously? Someone from the relevant department trawls round on here for loopholes? I'm surprised.

Or is it just conspiracy theories?
There's no trawling necessary when loopholes are openly advertised. Train companies have commercial interests to protect.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'conspiracy theories'. That's a very odd comment.
 

185143

Established Member
Joined
3 Mar 2013
Messages
4,486
There's no trawling necessary when loopholes are openly advertised. Train companies have commercial interests to protect.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'conspiracy theories'. That's a very odd comment.

Going via Crewe isn't THAT unreasonable-given how frequently VTWC are late and the conmection at Warrington is missed!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,531
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I suspect we will soon be seeing a review of map permissions in the Warrington/Crewe area... :roll:

Which is a silly side-effect of regulated fares.

What they should do is:-

1. Introduce a "route Frodsham" ticket at the present price.
2. Increase the Any Permitted fares to be equal to the fare from Crewe.

But I doubt fares regulation will permit it, so we get passenger-unfriendly restrictions instead.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2013
Messages
1,288
There's no trawling necessary when loopholes are openly advertised. Train companies have commercial interests to protect.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'conspiracy theories'. That's a very odd comment.

Openly advertised....yes on here, which means for someone to realise, as I just have they would need to be trawling through these forums.

Conspiracy theories, not an odd comment, I was just asking basically, does it actually happen, people check on here for loopholes and fix them or is it just people think that's what happens. ie conspiracy theories.
 

LNW-GW Joint

Veteran Member
Joined
22 Feb 2011
Messages
19,553
Location
Mold, Clwyd
This is good news though for future reference. A return to Crewe from Llandudno Junction is £30.10. A return to Warrington £24.60 so all non advance trips to Crewe will now be booked to Warrington and just get off at Crewe . £6.00 saved. :)

Beware your ticket is not restriction 8A - no break of journey.
The off-peak return SVR is so restricted.
Specifically to stop you doing what you just said.
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,531
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
8A isn't specifically for that purpose, it's to differentiate from an Anytime. But it certainly has that effect.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Openly advertised....yes on here, which means for someone to realise, as I just have they would need to be trawling through these forums.

Conspiracy theories, not an odd comment, I was just asking basically, does it actually happen, people check on here for loopholes and fix them or is it just people think that's what happens. ie conspiracy theories.

I think there is plenty of evidence that they do look in here for loopholes to block. I have no real issue with them being blocked if an appropriate routed ticket via the more expensive route was added.

One that I find quite ridiculous along similar lines is that there is no through ticket - none whatsoever - from Ormskirk to Preston on a Sunday. In BR days it was considered reasonable to go via Liverpool on a Sunday as Ormskirk-Preston has no Sunday service, I did it many times, it just wasn't reasonable to break your journey at Wigan while doing so as that would have avoided the higher fare. It is not now Permitted nor is there an easement that I know of. This is silly. They should make the present fares "route Rufford" and add an Any Permitted, with via Liverpool being Permitted by an easement, at the price of Ormskirk to Wigan which is valid that way.

But the railway prefers to say "can't" rather than to implement an actual fix that would be both to their benefit and to that of the passenger.
 
Last edited:

adrock1976

Established Member
Joined
10 Dec 2013
Messages
4,450
Location
What's it called? It's called Cumbernauld
Neil

In your Ormskirk - Preston Sundays example above, I would not bother with "Route Rufford" fares, as it is only one day of the week that the direct and shortest route journey cannot be made.

I would suggest introducing an easement along the lines of "Passengers travelling between Ormskirk and Preston on "Route: Any Permitted" may travel via Liverpool Group and St Helens Central on Sundays Only. Break of journey not allowed except to change trains"
 

Y Ddraig Coch

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2013
Messages
1,288
Beware your ticket is not restriction 8A - no break of journey.
The off-peak return SVR is so restricted.
Specifically to stop you doing what you just said.

Looking at the NRCOC online 8a seems to refer to international travel?

But 16 states

"16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the Ticket Seller must make this clear when you buy your ticket. "

So based on the above I can end /break a journey at an intermediate station unless the ticket seller makes it clear I cannot.

The ticket seller , online ticket seller in this case makes no such statement and actually sells tickets via Crewe at the same price as a regular LLJ-WBQ return. So I don't see there being any issues.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2013
Messages
1,288
ok, thanks for the info.

How do I find out if that specific rule applies to my ticket?

Edited upon further reading....


Actually it says

"Break of journey is not permitted except to change trains at an intermediate station or to access station facilities."

which I would be doing changing trains at Crewe, which we have already established is a valid route.

So still all good do we think?
 
Last edited:

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,531
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
which I would be doing changing trains at Crewe, which we have already established is a valid route.

So still all good do we think?

Yes.

The reference to break of journey was for the poster who said that when travelling to Crewe he would buy a ticket to Warrington and stop/start short - if BoJ is not permitted this arguably isn't either.

However, as TOCs read here I would expect to see via Crewe blocked for tickets to Warrington very soon. Once this happens (to close any loophole) you won't be OK any more.
 

ainsworth74

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Global Moderator
Joined
16 Nov 2009
Messages
27,536
Location
Redcar
ok, thanks for the info.

How do I find out if that specific rule applies to my ticket?

Easiest way is to use brfares.com enter the origin and destination then in the results click on the relevant ticket and it will show you more detail on that specific ticket including the restriction code and what it means.
 

kieron

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2012
Messages
3,047
Location
Connah's Quay
Openly advertised....yes on here, which means for someone to realise, as I just have they would need to be trawling through these forums.

Conspiracy theories, not an odd comment, I was just asking basically, does it actually happen, people check on here for loopholes and fix them or is it just people think that's what happens. ie conspiracy theories.
What seems more likely to me is that train companies have people whose jobs involve finding out what's happening on social media (including looking at sites like this one), and people who consider what changes should be made to the routeing guide as part of their jobs. These aren't the same people, but they talk to each other, and so things written on here can sometimes affect the behaviour of companies.
 

lemonic

Member
Joined
17 Sep 2010
Messages
497
What seems more likely to me is that train companies have people whose jobs involve finding out what's happening on social media (including looking at sites like this one), and people who consider what changes should be made to the routeing guide as part of their jobs. These aren't the same people, but they talk to each other, and so things written on here can sometimes affect the behaviour of companies.

Actually, some Pricing Managers do read this forum every day at work and so it is no coincidence that loopholes get removed so quickly.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

Established Member
Joined
1 Nov 2013
Messages
1,288
With tomorrow being Friday, that is normally the day that "minor modifications" to the Routeing Guide are made.

I will be waiting eagerly for tomorrow's update in due course :)

My lesson has been learnt......all new "finds" will be kept to myself or PM'd to someone.

To any pricing managers reading this......do your own work!!! :)
 

ashworth

Established Member
Joined
10 Sep 2008
Messages
1,285
Location
Notts
Actually, some Pricing Managers do read this forum every day at work and so it is no coincidence that loopholes get removed so quickly.

It must be true. There used to be dozens of fantastic fares available through loopholes all over the country, but most of the best ones, many which have been available for years, have disappeared over the past few years.
Unfortunately, I do blame posts in this forum for the removal of many of them. Many of these loopholes were only known about and used by a handful of people, but publising them here resulted in them being used by more and more people.

There was one that I had used regularly for years which enabled me to get a return from some stations in the East Midlands to The North West at half the standard price. Someone then, much to my annoyance, mentioned it here about 4 years ago and it disappeared within days! There was also a fare between the East and West Midlands that I regularly used which also disappeared about 2 years ago, again within days of being mentioned here.

I still know of, and regularly use a few loopholes, but I now keep them completely to myself.
 

kieron

Established Member
Joined
22 Mar 2012
Messages
3,047
Location
Connah's Quay
Actually, some Pricing Managers do read this forum every day at work and so it is no coincidence that loopholes get removed so quickly.
I didn't know that. I suppose it doesn't take all that long if you're only skimming it for something specific.
With tomorrow being Friday, that is normally the day that "minor modifications" to the Routeing Guide are made.

I will be waiting eagerly for tomorrow's update in due course :)
These things usually take longer than a day, apparently. The route has now been removed for tickets between Warrington and stations between Chester and Holyhead, though.
 

All Line Rover

Established Member
Joined
17 Feb 2011
Messages
5,221
It is remarkable that ATOC manages to get consent from the DfT, which must also consult Transport Focus before making its decision, in such a short timeframe.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top