Was I overcharged?

Discussion in 'Disputes & Prosecutions' started by 221129, 24 Apr 2015.

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  1. 221129

    221129 Established Member

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    Last night I was travelling from London Waterloo - Exeter St Davids on SWT when at Honiton my plans changed and I had to go forward to Tiverton Parkway.

    I found the guard on the train and asked for the extra ticket but his machine was broken. I arrived into EXD at 2041 2 minutes early, and there was a train to TVP at 2045 and 2050.

    This is where it gets confusing for me, I went over to catch the 2045 service which isn't an official connection and I waited in the vestibule between Coach A and B for the guard. This was an HST and with not too long before atations I actively sought him out with card in hand. However he refused to give me a railcard discount and said that he should be giving me a penalty (didn't think TMs could do that?) Anyway, He charged me £5.40 for the Off Peak Day Single. Which I believe should have been £3.30.

    So Was he right or was I overcharged?
     
  2. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Established Member

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    From

    http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/validity/

     
  3. 221129

    221129 Established Member

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    But I believe I didn't have opportunity to buy previously.
     
  4. Zoidberg

    Zoidberg Established Member

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    Perhaps you missed an opportunity where you changed trains.
     
  5. Idiotic

    Idiotic Member

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    In my eyes I believe you should have purchased your ticket before you boarded that train. Although you made effort on the original train there was still opportunity to buy your extension at the station especially when you didn't catch your official connection. However he seems to have been lenient in some sort of way and has sold you a off peak day single instead of a anytime single.
     
  6. TheEdge

    TheEdge Established Member

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    Yes you did. Exeter St Davids, 9 minutes to the next official connection, plenty of time to buy from the machines or ticket office.

    Case closed.
     
  7. 221129

    221129 Established Member

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    I was under the impression you don't have to delay your journey to buy a ticket at an interchange station? If I knew for certain that I could have gone out and still made the 9 minute connection I would have done. However by the time I would have gone through the barriers (Needed to be done manually) and through the crowded concourse I would likely have missed said connection. Then an hour to the next train.

    But I don't intend to complain I was just interested is all. Also A bit annoyed that he misled me, and the fact I was (albeit slightly) penalised for being honest!
     
    Last edited: 24 Apr 2015
  8. TheEdge

    TheEdge Established Member

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    I find it hard to believe Exeter was all that heaving at 20:40 on a Thursday night. Given the fact you came in on an SWT service I assume you arrived on 1, right next to the gates and then the machines and windows themselves are just on the other side of the gates. Not that far.
     
  9. 221129

    221129 Established Member

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    As I said I was just trying to find out whether as a passenger you HAVE to delay your journey at an interchange point if there have been no facilities prior. And how I am also A bit annoyed that he misled me, and the fact I was (albeit slightly) penalised for being honest!
     
  10. CC 72100

    CC 72100 Established Member

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    The guys on the train side of the barrier have a ticket machine - they need it for people coming from the unstaffed branch stations so surely they'd have been able to help you?
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    They normally arrive on 3, but a bit of positioning on the train so that you're next to the bridge can mean that within 30 seconds you're at the gateline.
     
  11. 323235

    323235 Established Member

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    If you are boarding from a staffed station such as Exeter I believe you should allow the minimum connection time and a buy before boarding. If you were travelling from an unstaffed station you should still allow the minimum interchange time between connections although you don't need to delay your journey to buy a ticket. As far as I can tell your ticket validity ceased at Exeter St Davids.

    I don't think you have any grounds for a complaint as the guard was charging you correctly. If you had asked for a ticket from an unstaffed station further afield i.e. St James' Park then the rules would allow you to buy with discount.
     
    Last edited: 24 Apr 2015
  12. island

    island Established Member

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    I think the guard acted incorrectly here. He should have charged you an extra 10p for an undiscounted Anytime fare as you chose not to use ticketing facilities that were available at the station. Your ticket held had expired on arrival at EXD so you were no different to any other passenger who arrived at the station wanting to go to wherever (ticket gates notwithstanding). Suggestions about minimum connecting time, not having to further delay your journey, etc. etc. are neither here nor there as you were not connecting at EXD, but ending one journey and commencing a second.
     
    Last edited: 24 Apr 2015
  13. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Surely your journey changed at the time you attempted to excess your original ticket. It's not your fault that the guard couldn't sell the onward excess. Minimum connection times refer to the railways liability to carry you in the event of delays. Taking an earlier train is fine as it is at your risk. I'd complain.
     
  14. asharpe

    asharpe Member

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    According this website's fares guide the only excess the first guard should have sold you was to the highest priced undiscounted ticket. (I think there could be grey area if you had a break of journey at an unstaffed station.)

    http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1185790&postcount=2

    Once you arrived at Exeter your ticket had no further validity and you boarded your next train without a ticket and were dealt with fairly in my opinion.



    I don't agree that you ever need to delay your journey to buy a ticket at an intermediate station. But you should not pass up an opportunity pay at the start, end or a reasonable opportunity elsewhere.

    Edit to add:
    I have bought OD excesses on board several times and been discounted. However when I have been unable I have always bought a new ticket for the extra distance I wanted to go.
     
    Last edited: 24 Apr 2015
  15. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

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    We know as a fact that you and the Company had a contract, and that was for travel on a journey to Exeter. That contract ended. In the process of getting you there on that journey, there was no "connection" required, and no question of a "minimum connection time".

    Any uncertainty seems to arise over the point at which your new contract might be deemed to have begun. It could begin with a ticket, or, in the absense of a ticket, it could begin with your ticketless travel. It is hard to see that it begins when you attempt to buy a ticket on board an earlier train when that attempt fails. As you had been unsuccessful in obtaining that new ticket for the new journey to Tiverton, then it is equally hard to understand what "connection" is to be made and therefore how a "minimum connection time" applies, nor how any "delay to your journey at an interchange" applies.

    Following the principle that a ticket should be obtained before travel wherever possible, and knowing that your journey using the ticket from London had been completed, then it seems that the next most straightforward thing to have done at Exeter is to go to the ticket office there and buy a ticket to Tiverton.

    I will admit that if I found myself in a similar situation, I would consider locating the guard on the Tiverton HST as it came into Exeter station and asking if they'd be willing to sell you the ticket you wanted, explaining that I'd just alighted from another train when my plans had changed.
     
    Last edited: 25 Apr 2015
  16. najaB

    najaB Veteran Member

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    I agree with those who have said that you had an opportunity to buy at Exeter station, so you weren't entitled to any railcard discount buying on board.
     
  17. 221129

    221129 Established Member

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  18. 34D

    34D Established Member

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    Could the guard on board the first train have authority to enter into a contract without accepting consideration there and then?

    I think he could have. But did he?
     
  19. DaveNewcastle

    DaveNewcastle Established Member Fares Advisor

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    Good question! (S)He could have done, yes. But it appears that in this instance, (s)he didn't (and it would be hazardous to do without some written evidence - sending a passenger onto another train with no more authority than a word puts everyone, especially the passenger, in an unsupportable position).
     
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