• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Was I overcharged?

Status
Not open for further replies.

221129

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
6,520
Location
Sunny Scotland
Last night I was travelling from London Waterloo - Exeter St Davids on SWT when at Honiton my plans changed and I had to go forward to Tiverton Parkway.

I found the guard on the train and asked for the extra ticket but his machine was broken. I arrived into EXD at 2041 2 minutes early, and there was a train to TVP at 2045 and 2050.

This is where it gets confusing for me, I went over to catch the 2045 service which isn't an official connection and I waited in the vestibule between Coach A and B for the guard. This was an HST and with not too long before atations I actively sought him out with card in hand. However he refused to give me a railcard discount and said that he should be giving me a penalty (didn't think TMs could do that?) Anyway, He charged me £5.40 for the Off Peak Day Single. Which I believe should have been £3.30.

So Was he right or was I overcharged?
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Zoidberg

Established Member
Joined
27 Aug 2010
Messages
1,270
Location
West Midlands
From

http://www.16-25railcard.co.uk/help/faqs/validity/

Can I use my Railcard to buy my ticket on the train rather than at a station?

A: Only if there is no ticket office, or the ticket office is closed and there is no ticket machine available to buy your discounted ticket at the station at which you began your journey. If this is the case you can buy your discounted ticket from ontrain staff.

Otherwise, if ticket facilities were available at the station you could be charged the full price Standard Single fare.
 

Idiotic

Member
Joined
8 Sep 2011
Messages
48
In my eyes I believe you should have purchased your ticket before you boarded that train. Although you made effort on the original train there was still opportunity to buy your extension at the station especially when you didn't catch your official connection. However he seems to have been lenient in some sort of way and has sold you a off peak day single instead of a anytime single.
 

TheEdge

Established Member
Joined
29 Nov 2012
Messages
4,489
Location
Norwich
But I believe I didn't have opportunity to buy previously.

Yes you did. Exeter St Davids, 9 minutes to the next official connection, plenty of time to buy from the machines or ticket office.

Case closed.
 

221129

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
6,520
Location
Sunny Scotland
I was under the impression you don't have to delay your journey to buy a ticket at an interchange station? If I knew for certain that I could have gone out and still made the 9 minute connection I would have done. However by the time I would have gone through the barriers (Needed to be done manually) and through the crowded concourse I would likely have missed said connection. Then an hour to the next train.

But I don't intend to complain I was just interested is all. Also A bit annoyed that he misled me, and the fact I was (albeit slightly) penalised for being honest!
 
Last edited:

TheEdge

Established Member
Joined
29 Nov 2012
Messages
4,489
Location
Norwich
I was under the impression you don't have to delay your journey to buy a ticket at an interchange station? If I knew for certain that I could have gone out and still made the 9 minute connection I would have done. However by the time I would have gone through the barriers (Needed to be done manually) and through the crowded concourse I would likely have missed said connection. Then an hour to the next train.

But I don't intend to complain I was just interested is all. Also A bit annoyed that he misled me, and the fact I was (albeit slightly) penalised for being honest!

I find it hard to believe Exeter was all that heaving at 20:40 on a Thursday night. Given the fact you came in on an SWT service I assume you arrived on 1, right next to the gates and then the machines and windows themselves are just on the other side of the gates. Not that far.
 

221129

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
6,520
Location
Sunny Scotland
As I said I was just trying to find out whether as a passenger you HAVE to delay your journey at an interchange point if there have been no facilities prior. And how I am also A bit annoyed that he misled me, and the fact I was (albeit slightly) penalised for being honest!
 

CC 72100

Established Member
Joined
23 Jan 2012
Messages
3,777
However by the time I would have gone through the barriers (Needed to be done manually) and through the crowded concourse I would likely have missed said connection. Then an hour to the next train.

The guys on the train side of the barrier have a ticket machine - they need it for people coming from the unstaffed branch stations so surely they'd have been able to help you?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I find it hard to believe Exeter was all that heaving at 20:40 on a Thursday night. Given the fact you came in on an SWT service I assume you arrived on 1,

They normally arrive on 3, but a bit of positioning on the train so that you're next to the bridge can mean that within 30 seconds you're at the gateline.
 

323235

Established Member
Joined
8 Dec 2007
Messages
2,076
Location
North East Cheshire
If you are boarding from a staffed station such as Exeter I believe you should allow the minimum connection time and a buy before boarding. If you were travelling from an unstaffed station you should still allow the minimum interchange time between connections although you don't need to delay your journey to buy a ticket. As far as I can tell your ticket validity ceased at Exeter St Davids.

I don't think you have any grounds for a complaint as the guard was charging you correctly. If you had asked for a ticket from an unstaffed station further afield i.e. St James' Park then the rules would allow you to buy with discount.
 
Last edited:

island

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2010
Messages
15,982
Location
0036
I think the guard acted incorrectly here. He should have charged you an extra 10p for an undiscounted Anytime fare as you chose not to use ticketing facilities that were available at the station. Your ticket held had expired on arrival at EXD so you were no different to any other passenger who arrived at the station wanting to go to wherever (ticket gates notwithstanding). Suggestions about minimum connecting time, not having to further delay your journey, etc. etc. are neither here nor there as you were not connecting at EXD, but ending one journey and commencing a second.
 
Last edited:

MikeWh

Established Member
Associate Staff
Senior Fares Advisor
Joined
15 Jun 2010
Messages
7,865
Location
Crayford
Surely your journey changed at the time you attempted to excess your original ticket. It's not your fault that the guard couldn't sell the onward excess. Minimum connection times refer to the railways liability to carry you in the event of delays. Taking an earlier train is fine as it is at your risk. I'd complain.
 

ASharpe

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2013
Messages
999
Location
West Yorkshire
According this website's fares guide the only excess the first guard should have sold you was to the highest priced undiscounted ticket. (I think there could be grey area if you had a break of journey at an unstaffed station.)

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1185790&postcount=2

Once you arrived at Exeter your ticket had no further validity and you boarded your next train without a ticket and were dealt with fairly in my opinion.



I don't agree that you ever need to delay your journey to buy a ticket at an intermediate station. But you should not pass up an opportunity pay at the start, end or a reasonable opportunity elsewhere.

Edit to add:
I have bought OD excesses on board several times and been discounted. However when I have been unable I have always bought a new ticket for the extra distance I wanted to go.
 
Last edited:

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
We know as a fact that you and the Company had a contract, and that was for travel on a journey to Exeter. That contract ended. In the process of getting you there on that journey, there was no "connection" required, and no question of a "minimum connection time".

Any uncertainty seems to arise over the point at which your new contract might be deemed to have begun. It could begin with a ticket, or, in the absense of a ticket, it could begin with your ticketless travel. It is hard to see that it begins when you attempt to buy a ticket on board an earlier train when that attempt fails. As you had been unsuccessful in obtaining that new ticket for the new journey to Tiverton, then it is equally hard to understand what "connection" is to be made and therefore how a "minimum connection time" applies, nor how any "delay to your journey at an interchange" applies.

Following the principle that a ticket should be obtained before travel wherever possible, and knowing that your journey using the ticket from London had been completed, then it seems that the next most straightforward thing to have done at Exeter is to go to the ticket office there and buy a ticket to Tiverton.

I will admit that if I found myself in a similar situation, I would consider locating the guard on the Tiverton HST as it came into Exeter station and asking if they'd be willing to sell you the ticket you wanted, explaining that I'd just alighted from another train when my plans had changed.
 
Last edited:

najaB

Veteran Member
Joined
28 Aug 2011
Messages
30,692
Location
Scotland
So Was he right or was I overcharged?
I agree with those who have said that you had an opportunity to buy at Exeter station, so you weren't entitled to any railcard discount buying on board.
 

34D

Established Member
Joined
9 Feb 2011
Messages
6,042
Location
Yorkshire
We know as a fact that you and the Company had a contract, and that was for travel on a journey to Exeter. That contract ended. In the process of getting you there on that journey, there was no "connection" required, and no question of a "minimum connection time".

Any uncertainty seems to arise over the point at which your new contract might be deemed to have begun. It could begin with a ticket, or, in the absense of a ticket, it could begin with your ticketless travel. It is hard to see that it begins when you attempt to buy a ticket on board an earlier train when that attempt fails.

Could the guard on board the first train have authority to enter into a contract without accepting consideration there and then?

I think he could have. But did he?
 

DaveNewcastle

Established Member
Joined
21 Dec 2007
Messages
7,387
Location
Newcastle (unless I'm out)
Could the guard on board the first train have authority to enter into a contract without accepting consideration there and then?

I think he could have. But did he?
Good question! (S)He could have done, yes. But it appears that in this instance, (s)he didn't (and it would be hazardous to do without some written evidence - sending a passenger onto another train with no more authority than a word puts everyone, especially the passenger, in an unsupportable position).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top