• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Was the ITSO system ever meant to be rolled out across the entire network?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,074
Location
Powys
I quite often travel from Tyndrum to/from Glasgow - the smartcards can't load tickets that are to / from Tyndrum whether upper or lower. Had a discussion with a couple of ticket offices about why this doesn't work and it has always been this way and it seems the problem is the smart card must be point to point and the actual ticket would be 'Glasgow Terminuses' to 'Tyndrum Stations'.

Exactly highlights one of the problems I would have; I could end my journey to London at 3 different terminii.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Fawkes Cat

Established Member
Joined
8 May 2017
Messages
2,943
I quite often travel from Tyndrum to/from Glasgow - the smartcards can't load tickets that are to / from Tyndrum whether upper or lower. Had a discussion with a couple of ticket offices about why this doesn't work and it has always been this way and it seems the problem is the smart card must be point to point and the actual ticket would be 'Glasgow Terminuses' to 'Tyndrum Stations'.

Exactly highlights one of the problems I would have; I could end my journey to London at 3 different terminii

But this doesn't sound like an insoluble problem. I agree that it hasn't been solved yet - but that doesn't mean that it cannot or will not be solved.

Somewhere up-thread, someone suggested that a lot of Oyster's early problems were a result of trying to just move a paper-based ticketing system to be card-based. It's going to be the same with a national system: the good news is that a card-based system will be able to do things that paper can't (introduce daily caps for paper tickets anyone? No, thought not.) but the bad news is that some things that paper tickets cope with easily may become difficult.
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
Exactly highlights one of the problems I would have; I could end my journey to London at 3 different terminii.
That's not an inherent problem of the ITSO system. It's just poor implementation. Exactly the same as when mag stripe tickets are incorrectly rejected by ticket barriers.
 

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,074
Location
Powys
But this doesn't sound like an insoluble problem. I agree that it hasn't been solved yet - but that doesn't mean that it cannot or will not be solved.

Somewhere up-thread, someone suggested that a lot of Oyster's early problems were a result of trying to just move a paper-based ticketing system to be card-based. It's going to be the same with a national system: the good news is that a card-based system will be able to do things that paper can't (introduce daily caps for paper tickets anyone? No, thought not.) but the bad news is that some things that paper tickets cope with easily may become difficult.

And I thought the idea was to make life simpler (and cheaper) for the passenger? Obviously not!

No-one has yet been able to explain how any of these "systems" are going to make it easier, quicker and possibly cheaper for the occasional passenger making a journey from (say) Caersws to London than the current bit of card or roll of paper, or even on their mobile phone.

And no I'm not being a Luddite. I just want a simple and easy to understand system, and from what has been posted here this is NOT it.
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
No-one has yet been able to explain how any of these "systems" are going to make it easier, quicker and possibly cheaper for the occasional passenger making a journey from (say) Caersws to London than the current bit of card or roll of paper, or even on their mobile phone.
  • I buy a ticket on my mobile phone as I stroll along the road towards Caersws station.
  • Then, I immediately download the ITSO-compatible ticket to the Google Pay app on my mobile phone.
  • When the conductor comes through checking tickets, I simply tap my phone on the conductor's reader without needing to a) unlock my phone, b) open an app or c) try to the conductor's reader to scan a barcode on my phone's screen.
  • When exiting the barriers at London Euston, I simply tap my phone on the reader pad - again without needing to unlock my phone.
So much easier than fiddling around with bits of card or rolls of paper.
  • Or, if for example, I know that my battery is low, I might choose to transfer the ITSO-compliant ticket onto an ITSO smartcard that I already have (such as a TfW Concessionary Pass, or perhaps even a works ID card/library card that is compatible with ITSO tickets).
  • Or I might choose to collect the ticket by tapping my ITSO card onto the station's card reader.
  • Or failing that, I could visit the station's TVM and get it to print out cardboard ITSO card for that journey - just as Glasgow Subway have been doing for years.
Different options to suit different people. And all possible with ITSO. All it takes is the will to have it implemented... properly.
 

CeeJ

Member
Joined
25 Jun 2017
Messages
157
The lack of interoperability is the biggest gripe about ITSO for me, particularly around London where not only can you not use PAYG as would on Oyster but most Oyster-supporting TVMs don't support ITSO cards. Interoperability is improving somewhat, with EMR now supporting other ITSO cards - though you can only load weekly/monthly season ticket on to them (but I presume that will change).

On a positive note, having lost my pre-booked paper train tickets (which could have been fulfilled by ITSO, but not supported by either Greater Anglia/Southeastern) I used the TVM at Clacton to load a single ticket on to my Southeastern Key, it was pretty simple.

I really like the idea of loading single-use tickets on ITSO using a smartphone to store in an Apple/Google Pay Wallet, easier to tap your phone like a card payment than to faff with the on-screen QR code.
 

Fawkes Cat

Established Member
Joined
8 May 2017
Messages
2,943
No-one has yet been able to explain how any of these "systems" are going to make it easier, quicker and possibly cheaper for the occasional passenger making a journey from (say) Caersws to London than the current bit of card or roll of paper, or even on their mobile phone.

Can I refer you to my post #29 of 0843 on 31 December? In your example you would

1) arrive at Caersws
2) tap in
3) get on a train
4) get off that train wherever you needed to change
5) repeat steps (3) and(4) until you arrived in London
6) tap out
7) go about your business in London
8) At the end of the day, your bank account would be charged the Caersws to London fare - currently £164 (and presumably something different tomorrow). I don’t see any reason why an off-peak or super off-peak fare (as low as £41.70) couldn’t be charged if departure and arrival times meant that no peak train could have been used.


If you didn’t fancy paying £164, then prior to starting your trip, you would buy a ticket over the internet, so there’s

0) buy ticket before travelling: cost (per Brfares.com) may be £12 or more.

but at the end of your journey, there’s no step (8) - the railway already have your money.

So passengers who currently plan their travel in advance will see virtually no change - they will still pre-book their ticket but instead of getting a ticket or email to show they will have to bring and show their credit card. Casual walk-up travellers who don’t check fares beforehand could be surprised by how much they pay - but that’s not really a change from now.
 

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,074
Location
Powys
  • I buy a ticket on my mobile phone as I stroll along the road towards Caersws station.
  • Then, I immediately download the ITSO-compatible ticket to the Google Pay app on my mobile phone.
  • When the conductor comes through checking tickets, I simply tap my phone on the conductor's reader without needing to a) unlock my phone, b) open an app or c) try to the conductor's reader to scan a barcode on my phone's screen.
  • When exiting the barriers at London Euston, I simply tap my phone on the reader pad - again without needing to unlock my phone.
So much easier than fiddling around with bits of card or rolls of paper.
  • Or, if for example, I know that my battery is low, I might choose to transfer the ITSO-compliant ticket onto an ITSO smartcard that I already have (such as a TfW Concessionary Pass, or perhaps even a works ID card/library card that is compatible with ITSO tickets).
  • Or I might choose to collect the ticket by tapping my ITSO card onto the station's card reader.
  • Or failing that, I could visit the station's TVM and get it to print out cardboard ITSO card for that journey - just as Glasgow Subway have been doing for years.
Different options to suit different people. And all possible with ITSO. All it takes is the will to have it implemented... properly.

And you think that makes life simpler than a piece of paper for the occasional traveller??

There are places around Caersws that don't have a phone signal.
I don't have Google Pay and don't intend to have it. In fact I can't use my phone for any banking or for paying for things, and why should I?
Are all these cards ITSO compatible? I haven't got a clue, and you have presumed that people have one.
I know of no stations that have card readers in this area, and some don't even have ticket machines.

All I see is people suggesting a system that is MORE complicated outside of urban areas than we have now, and from your comments above will be more expensive to set up as well, so the passenger will have to pay for it.
 

Llanigraham

Established Member
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,074
Location
Powys
Can I refer you to my post #29 of 0843 on 31 December? In your example you would

1) arrive at Caersws
2) tap in
3) get on a train
4) get off that train wherever you needed to change
5) repeat steps (3) and(4) until you arrived in London
6) tap out
7) go about your business in London
8) At the end of the day, your bank account would be charged the Caersws to London fare - currently £164 (and presumably something different tomorrow). I don’t see any reason why an off-peak or super off-peak fare (as low as £41.70) couldn’t be charged if departure and arrival times meant that no peak train could have been used.


If you didn’t fancy paying £164, then prior to starting your trip, you would buy a ticket over the internet, so there’s

0) buy ticket before travelling: cost (per Brfares.com) may be £12 or more.

but at the end of your journey, there’s no step (8) - the railway already have your money.

So passengers who currently plan their travel in advance will see virtually no change - they will still pre-book their ticket but instead of getting a ticket or email to show they will have to bring and show their credit card. Casual walk-up travellers who don’t check fares beforehand could be surprised by how much they pay - but that’s not really a change from now.

Tap in with what?
You seem to be assuming that everyone has a credit card.
How would your "system" cope with passengers holding Disabled, Aged Person or other discount cards?

And again this "proposed" system seems to be making it more complicated than what we have now, when I thought we were trying to make it easier.

And I don't know where you got that ticket price from, I have never paid more than £50 return, even for a walk-up fare.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
  • I buy a ticket on my mobile phone as I stroll along the road towards Caersws station.
  • Then, I immediately download the ITSO-compatible ticket to the Google Pay app on my mobile phone.
  • When the conductor comes through checking tickets, I simply tap my phone on the conductor's reader without needing to a) unlock my phone, b) open an app or c) try to the conductor's reader to scan a barcode on my phone's screen.
  • When exiting the barriers at London Euston, I simply tap my phone on the reader pad - again without needing to unlock my phone.
So much easier than fiddling around with bits of card or rolls of paper.
  • Or, if for example, I know that my battery is low, I might choose to transfer the ITSO-compliant ticket onto an ITSO smartcard that I already have (such as a TfW Concessionary Pass, or perhaps even a works ID card/library card that is compatible with ITSO tickets).
  • Or I might choose to collect the ticket by tapping my ITSO card onto the station's card reader.
  • Or failing that, I could visit the station's TVM and get it to print out cardboard ITSO card for that journey - just as Glasgow Subway have been doing for years.
Different options to suit different people. And all possible with ITSO. All it takes is the will to have it implemented... properly.

Indeed. As people are increasingly accepting a gradual move to a cash free society (even accepting the risks of bank systems going down, which is very rare but catastrophic when it occurs) then more and more people will not want to buy a paper ticket, with the associate hassle of having to queue up to speak to a person (stuck dealing with someone enquiring about advance fares for travel in two weeks from now), or the risk of using a TVM that may or may not work, or also have long queues, or issues with accepting coins/notes, or not issue every ticket properly.

It isn't even possible to say that older people are against new technology, as many elderly or disabled people are probably already using smartcard technology. Younger people are all used to it, and those in-between can easily adapt just as they've done with other things in their life, from smartphones to keyless entry on cars, and going from writing cheques and signing credit card slips, to chip & pin and now contactless.
 

Fawkes Cat

Established Member
Joined
8 May 2017
Messages
2,943
Tap in with what?
You seem to be assuming that everyone has a credit card.

Yup. Or a debit card.

Whether we like it or not, I think we need to accept that paper and coin cash is going the same way as the white five pound note, the gold sovereign and bartering goats and sacks of potatoes. How we pay for things changes.

How would your "system" cope with passengers holding Disabled, Aged Person or other discount cards

By the passenger assigning the discount to their credit card. Which I explained in my original post. (ETA) Which I should have explained in my original post, but I think I just swept up in what people would have to do if they wanted to get something cheaper than the advertised maximum fare. And it seems to me that the idea of having to organise one's discount onto one's card before travelling (whether at a ticket office or online) is not very far removed from that of having to buy a Railcard before travelling (whether at a ticket office or online).

And I don't know where you got that ticket price from, I have never paid more than £50 return, even for a walk-up fare.

Brfares.com. I'd provide the link, but as I wrote yesterday before the fares increase that has happened overnight, it won't demonstrate the precise figure I have quoted.
 
Last edited:

SamYeager

Member
Joined
20 Mar 2014
Messages
337
@Fawkes Cat - So you believe this would work for a visitor from the US whose credit card probably doesn't have chip and pin as its use is not widespread in the US? I remember the problems UK people had in using cards in Europe before the rollout of chip and pin took place over here.
 

w1bbl3

Member
Joined
6 Mar 2011
Messages
325
The US has moved to chip and nothing 'cause pin pads was to bigger cost / complexity to rollout. The cards as issued are technically of the EMV (chip & pin) type just with the pin function not used.

Can I refer you to my post #29 of 0843 on 31 December? In your example you would
....
So passengers who currently plan their travel in advance will see virtually no change - they will still pre-book their ticket but instead of getting a ticket or email to show they will have to bring and show their credit card. Casual walk-up travellers who don’t check fares beforehand could be surprised by how much they pay - but that’s not really a change from now.

Contactless tap-in just isn't going to happen for long distance jouneys as the CC issuers and TOC's will not be prepared to stand the potential for per trip losses of £100+ when the transaction is queried, and lets be honest how many people will query the transaction if it turns out the CC's no effective way of proving you authorised the transaction.
I can very much see contactless tap-in for pre purchased tickets happening where gate validates you have a pre purchased ticket prior to opening.
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
I can very much see contactless tap-in for pre purchased tickets happening where gate validates you have a pre purchased ticket prior to opening.

Yes, I think the industry sees ITSO cards as a digital wallet scheme, so merely a place to store your virtual ticket. PAYG may exist in specific areas, and that in itself can cause confusion, but once you go national with walk-up fares in excess of £100, clearly PAYG cannot and will not work.

If you can load your ticket onto a phone and use that, all the better. The phone app simply needs to have the same functionality as the smartcard so it's easy to operate and understand.
 

Pixa

Member
Joined
29 Dec 2012
Messages
11
I have a Southern key for my season ticket, and it's really convenient for that, especially with auto delay repay. I've also been able to do a single journey on multiple tickets - my season is from Bognor to Gatwick, but if I want to go to London after work I've been able to get a ticket from Three Bridges to London (Three Bridges because the ticket machines at Gatwick only speak Oyster and you can't order single and return tickets online any more) and do the return journey all the way from London to home and not have the system complain at me when I tap out.
 

Fawkes Cat

Established Member
Joined
8 May 2017
Messages
2,943
Contactless tap-in just isn't going to happen for long distance jouneys as the CC issuers and TOC's will not be prepared to stand the potential for per trip losses of £100+ when the transaction is queried, and lets be honest how many people will query the transaction if it turns out the CC's no effective way of proving you authorised the transaction.
This, I think, has the potential to be a real show stopper for a purely contactless system: clearly the railway will want as much payment as possible to be guaranteed by the banks to minimise their losses, while the banks will want as low a guarantee as possible to minimise theirs.

I suspect that if the matter can be resolved, it will be if a contactless-only system is vastly cheaper to run than contactless plus ITSO, or contactless plus ITSO plus cash handling, such that the cost benefits of the scheme outweigh the increased risks of losses. So there will be a need to accurately predict how much revenue will be lost: it seems to me that there will be 2 categories of loss:
- people who honestly turn up without enough money on their card
- people who intentionally use some sort of underfunded disposable card to get through tapping in and out but leave the fare short.

My gut feeling is that the 'honest mistake' category would be fairly small - I have already suggested blacklisting as a way of avoiding cards being repeatedly used like this, and it's not impossible to imagine banks paying up to the railway and then pursuing their customers - but it's harder to work out how many people would intentionally bilk the system. It rather comes down to how honest you think people will be if they can get away with it, and what steps could be put in place to ensure compliance.
 

ashkeba

Established Member
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
2,171
This, I think, has the potential to be a real show stopper for a purely contactless system: clearly the railway will want as much payment as possible to be guaranteed by the banks to minimise their losses, while the banks will want as low a guarantee as possible to minimise theirs.
Is it much different to now and people getting on trains with insufficient money for their fare or trying various scams like donutting? It seems like contactless could clamp down on some of those, if railway systems at high risk locations is updated to the 21st century and talks to each other in Real time.
 

Smylers

Member
Joined
1 Jul 2010
Messages
30
Location
Ilkley
... prior to starting your trip, you would buy a ticket over the internet, so there’s

0) buy ticket before travelling: cost (per Brfares.com) may be £12 or more.

So passengers who currently plan their travel in advance will see virtually no change - they will still pre-book their ticket but instead of getting a ticket or email to show they will have to bring and show their credit card.

How does that work when buying tickets for others, including children? Currently I often buy tickets online for me, my spouse, and our children (who don't have payment cards). I collect paper tickets from a machine, then when going through ticket barriers at, say, Leeds, I hand them out and each person presents their own ticket separately.

Would I need to get ITSO cards for the children, and then when buying tickets type in the children's card numbers, so the tickets can be loaded to their individual cards?

And how would I identify which ticket is loaded on to my credit card and which my spouse's? My spouse's is a second card on my account, and both cards have the same number. (None of us own smartphones.)

Currently I can go to a ticket machine and collect everybody's paper tickets. If using ITSO cards or contactless payment cards, would I need to have everybody else's cards on me? That would be inconvenient if, say, I'm trying to load tickets for tomorrow while my spouse and children are currently on a day trip, using their cards.

Maybe we can get round that by having multiple ITSO cards per child. But that's added complexity to have to deal with. I reckon at the moment I already mess up ticket buying once to twice a month (buying a combination of tickets that are valid but are more expensive than some other combination that I could've legitimately chosen), and any complexity in non-paper tickets is only going to make that worse.

Why not simply load the tickets on to the cards when arriving at the start of our journey? Because the ITSO machines are Ilkley are near the ticket office on platform 1. We live near the station entrance that goes straight to platform 2, from where most Leeds trains we catch depart. Having to walk along the entire length of platform 2 (past our train), round to the ticket machines, and back to the train more than doubles the walking distance from our front gate — and is particularly inconvenient when travelling with small children and a week's worth of luggage (as we sometimes do).

And don't think of putting a ticket barrier across Ilkley's platform 2 entrance — it's also the pedestrian route for people who live that side of town to, say, the Post Office (in the station building). Maybe Northern could put a ticket machine near the platform 2 entrance, but would they actually bother? Is there a suitable electrical supply and data connection there?

You mention buying tickets online. What about for tickets that can't be bought online and I currently buy in person at a ticket office? For instance if I'm joining the rest of the family partway through a journey using a Family Railcard, I need a Railcard-discounted ticket from the intermediate station, which websites won't sell unless I also buy a child ticket from the same starting point.

And there's those complicated childcare-handover journeys, where the children sometimes travel one way or part of a journey with me and the rest with my spouse. Often these handovers involve swapping our shared MCard (West Yorkshire Metro; it's allowed to share a monthly zone pass thingy) in the opposite direction to the children. Could the sharing of an MCard pass be done virtually between our credit cards?

If not, and we still have a physical MCard, what happens for situations where I currently buy a paper ticket to an intermediate station, where my spouse will board and hand me our MCard to cover the remaining part? I touch in at the origin station and then need to touch out while on the train at the intermediate station?

What about a family day rover ticket? Currently that's one piece of card I show to staff at a ticket barrier and somebody holds a gate open to let all of us through. If that's just loaded to my credit card, will the barriers stay open long enough for us all to make it? Or will staff have to check that my credit card has a family ticket on it? However they do that sounds slower than just looking at a printed ticket.

I'd love not to need to buy paper tickets (especially if there's some kind of carnet system for part-time workers, where a season ticket isn't worth it), but I can't see how using payment cards and internet booking can replace everything we currently do without making things even more complicated.
 

mattdickinson

Member
Joined
14 Nov 2010
Messages
548
Location
Uxbridge
Yes, I think the industry sees ITSO cards as a digital wallet scheme, so merely a place to store your virtual ticket. PAYG may exist in specific areas, and that in itself can cause confusion, but once you go national with walk-up fares in excess of £100, clearly PAYG cannot and will not work.

If you can load your ticket onto a phone and use that, all the better. The phone app simply needs to have the same functionality as the smartcard so it's easy to operate and understand.

The Danish solution is to set a flag on their smartcard at a TVM for inter-regional journeys which switches the charge on touch-in from approximately £8 to approximately £70.

https://www.rejsekort.dk/Hjaelp/Saadan-rejser-du
 

hwl

Established Member
Joined
5 Feb 2012
Messages
7,355
Yes, I think the industry sees ITSO cards as a digital wallet scheme, so merely a place to store your virtual ticket. PAYG may exist in specific areas, and that in itself can cause confusion, but once you go national with walk-up fares in excess of £100, clearly PAYG cannot and will not work.

If you can load your ticket onto a phone and use that, all the better. The phone app simply needs to have the same functionality as the smartcard so it's easy to operate and understand.
The core issue is the DfT thinking was years behind where payment in general and TfL were heading is always 2 steps behind and this has been baked into TOC thinking.
 

TheSeeker

Member
Joined
15 Feb 2016
Messages
314
Location
Braine-l'Alleud
You could always put it on your National ID Card along with Health Insurance Details and your right to move freely within Schengen. I'll get me coat.
 

Dent

Member
Joined
4 Feb 2015
Messages
1,106
Is there even a consensus on what ITSO is actually supposed to be?

Is it supposed to be a national PAYG system? The level of complexity of the entire national rail network and the high value of some fares make this a non-starter on a national level.

Is it supposed to be a "digital wallet" to hold pre-purchased tickets? If so then what "problem" is this trying to solve?

Is it supposed to be something else? If so then exactly what?
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,538
Location
Western Part of the UK
Is there even a consensus on what ITSO is actually supposed to be?

Is it supposed to be a national PAYG system? The level of complexity of the entire national rail network and the high value of some fares make this a non-starter on a national level.

Is it supposed to be a "digital wallet" to hold pre-purchased tickets? If so then what "problem" is this trying to solve?

Is it supposed to be something else? If so then exactly what?
ITSO was meant to be a standard of card for period tickets of all public transport types to save you trying to keep hold of lots of weekly tickets or lots of smartcards. The issue here being that most smartcards can't be used outside of the issuing company or issuing area (Walrus is only valid in Merseyside, Stagecoach Smart is only valid within the respective Stagecoach area where it originates).
 

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
Is there even a consensus on what ITSO is actually supposed to be?

Is it supposed to be a national PAYG system? The level of complexity of the entire national rail network and the high value of some fares make this a non-starter on a national level.

Is it supposed to be a "digital wallet" to hold pre-purchased tickets? If so then what "problem" is this trying to solve?

Is it supposed to be something else? If so then exactly what?

A digital wallet first and foremost, but with the ability to do PAYG where applicable.

Now the thinking is to offer both cards and mobile based solutions, which makes sense. Make your phone the smartcard, as people do all the time for payments.
 

exesoundtech

Member
Joined
15 Sep 2018
Messages
58
ITSO was meant to be a standard of card for period tickets of all public transport types to save you trying to keep hold of lots of weekly tickets or lots of smartcards. The issue here being that most smartcards can't be used outside of the issuing company or issuing area (Walrus is only valid in Merseyside, Stagecoach Smart is only valid within the respective Stagecoach area where it originates).

My understanding is that if you have any TOC issued card with the "three sausages" logo, you can load any ticket on a smart route from any retailing point that sells smart products.

So, I could rock up to a Northern TVM and load a smart GA Anytime Return Ipswich>Lowestoft onto my SWR "Touch" card. Not quite sure why I'd actually want to do that, but I could if I so chose ;)

More on the National Rail site here: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/218425.aspx
 

markymark2000

On Moderation
Joined
11 May 2015
Messages
3,538
Location
Western Part of the UK
My understanding is that if you have any TOC issued card with the "three sausages" logo, you can load any ticket on a smart route from any retailing point that sells smart products.

So, I could rock up to a Northern TVM and load a smart GA Anytime Return Ipswich>Lowestoft onto my SWR "Touch" card. Not quite sure why I'd actually want to do that, but I could if I so chose ;)

More on the National Rail site here: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/218425.aspx
Is that the new ITSO thing?
If so, where else is it valid outside of the national rail network?
 

L401CJF

Established Member
Joined
16 Oct 2019
Messages
1,444
Location
Wirral
I work on the buses in Merseyside and deal with Merseytravels Walrus card ITSO products every day, along with Cheshires Travel Card on some routes.

The Cheshire card is a top up wallet, offering discount fares on some journeys when tickets are bought using the card balance.

Merseytravels Walrus card (now being phased out with the new Metro Cards) can be used for loading prepaid Merseytravel Day Saveaway passes, Solo Day/Week/Month bus only passes, Arriva bus weekly and Stagecoach bus weekly tickets. The bus train and ferry 'Trio' ticket still hasn't been made available on the smart card, except Merseytravels staff passes. So far Merseytravels products can only be topped up at paypoint shops, train stations and travel centres. They introduced the option to top up Solo day and week tickets onto the cards onboard buses early last year, this got axed the day it went live due to 'technical problems' and hasn't been heard of since. This card was introduced probably 5 years ago now and half the products are still in paper format, so clearly implementing it isn't as easy as it seems.

Also a number of TOCs operating within the MPTE area accept Saveaway passes such as TPE, EMR, TfW, Northern and LNWR, however you still have to keep the top up receipt so the tickets can be inspected as they don't have card readers that can read them (or couldn't last time i used one).

When first introduced each station was supposed to have card readers similar to londons tap in/out system, however they ran out of cash and never materialised so off the top of my head only the Underground stations plus Southport, South Parkway, St Helens Central (?) and Chester actually have ticket barriers/scanners.

The Cheshire card and the Walrus both used to show a 'National' product as Active on the card, however no feature to use it on the machines, I presume a base for some sort of national rollout where you could top up your 'wallet' to be used across all systems however nothing ever seemed to come of it. I am not sure if the latest issue of the cards still have this feature.

Also worth noting is each card has its own expiry date, I believe around 5 years(?) as recently there have been a number of them coming up as invalid despite having a valid product on, you cannot even view the card details on the ticket machine and just flashes up INVALID on the menu, it seems to lock the card completely. The cards cost £1 but in this case they have been advising to issue a free replacement.

We are very far away from an integrated ticketing system, each individual authority seems to struggle getting a system that works for them, letalone nationwide.
 

transmanche

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2011
Messages
6,018
Is there even a consensus on what ITSO is actually supposed to be?
Yes. In simple terms, ITSO is a UK standard specification for securely storing 'products' and the communication between systems. Products can be stored on a smartcard, a key fob, a mobile phone.

'Products' include: electronic tickets, reservations, concessionary entitlement, vouchers, loyalty points and 'Stored Travel Rights'

Is it supposed to be a national PAYG system?
No. But 'Stored Travel Rights' are basically an electronic purse used to pay for tickets.

Is it supposed to be a "digital wallet" to hold pre-purchased tickets? If so then what "problem" is this trying to solve?
Just a couple, off the top of my head:
  • Durability. I never managed to keep a paper annual season ticket without needing it to be replaced at least once. I had an Oyster Card (admittedly, not ITSO) for over 10 years before it needed to be replaced.
  • Security. If it's lost or stolen, it can be blocked and replaced. Much harder to forge.
Using ITSO makes it easier to offer new and different products:
  • Carnet-style tickets, with optional auto-renew.
  • Post-pay: e.g. where you offer daily or weekly capping by direct debit.
  • Being able to buy a ticket in advance, but not for a specific day.
  • Vouchers, such as for catering.
  • I think it may even be possible to do automatic season ticket purchase/activation. For example, you could set it up so that a 7-day season ticket is activated when you touch in/out at a specific station/pair of stations/within a zone.
All these are technically possible with ITSO, if the operators could be bothered to implement it.

* An example of this might be where I buy an Advance Single from Newcastle to London, but I don't know when I'm coming back. So I buy a Super Off-Peak Single for the return journey which is activated on-demand - unlike a paper ticket where I have to specify the date of travel at the time of purchase.
 
Last edited:

jon0844

Veteran Member
Joined
1 Feb 2009
Messages
28,013
Location
UK
My understanding is that if you have any TOC issued card with the "three sausages" logo, you can load any ticket on a smart route from any retailing point that sells smart products.

So, I could rock up to a Northern TVM and load a smart GA Anytime Return Ipswich>Lowestoft onto my SWR "Touch" card. Not quite sure why I'd actually want to do that, but I could if I so chose ;)

More on the National Rail site here: https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/218425.aspx

The logo is like this;

RDG-ITSO-Logo.png

Despite my many quite vocal complaints about how haphazard the implementation has been over the years (shocking is too nice a word, but I don't want to swear), I do have a good feeling that finally we're starting to get somewhere. Interoperability is vital, and that's the area that once fixed will be the turning point.

There are still too many problems that mean people who do adopt a smartcard may have a bad experience and want to go back to the 'safety' of paper. I hope these instances will reduce month by month.
 
Last edited:

mmh

Established Member
Joined
13 Aug 2016
Messages
3,744
You need sufficient credit on the card to pay for the most expensive journey you can make and this amount is debited to the card. On 'touching out' the cost for that particular journey (distance - zones and routing - and time of day) is calculated and the difference is refunded to the card.

That's not correct, you do not need the maximum fare on the card. An amount is debited when you start a journey (which is not the maximum fare, although I forget what the amount charge is based on.) If there's not enough money on the card, it takes it into a negative balance. The actual charge is worked out as you leave as you say, which can leave a card with a negative balance. Cards with negative balances can't be used to start a new journey (or have travelcard passes added to them) until the negative balance is paid for.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top