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Was this sort of practice commonplace pre-deregulation with jointly operated routes?

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Deerfold

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The Leeds - Bradford 72 was a joint Leeds and Bradford city transport operation. You saw blue Bradford buses in leeds and green Leeds ones in Bradford. Seems to be a 100% First Bradford operation now.

It is, but only since last August - before that most buses were based in Bramley.

I think joint services fell foul of monopolies rules.

Really?

How would those affect them?
 
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Deerfold

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Slightly off topic as its post deregulation and not a joint service but I once saw, back in pre Transdev & First days, a Blazefield Harrogate & District vehicle working a 653 service, albeit apparently only as far as Otley rather than all the way to Bradford judging by the destination blind; presumably the inbound Yorkshire Rider vehicle had broken down and an old WYRCC agreement was still in place that the Harrogate depot would fill in such circumstances

Definitely wasn't when H&D was part of Yorkshire Rider?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Definitely wasn't when H&D was part of Yorkshire Rider?
You mean West Yorkshire Road Car? YR never had Harrogate.

Jointly operated services had all sorts of Competition Commission issues in terms of fares etc. However, another issue was consistency from different firms - the 36 being an example where H&D were busy investing in route branded new vehicles (Lynxes, B10Bs) whilst United were turfing out knackered Nationals and high floor Tigers.

IIRC, when Go Ahead got Arriva’s Hexham depot, one of the main reasons why the 685 didn’t transfer was that Peter Huntley didn’t want a joint service where he’d been constrained with what he could do in terms of marketing and development.
 

SCH117X

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Definitely wasn't when H&D was part of Yorkshire Rider?
I know it wasn't - the 653 was a YR (Bradford) route but on that Saturday afternoon a H&D vehicle headed south out of Harrogate with 653 Otley on its destination screen so as I presumed a YR vehicle had broken down and an old WYRCC agreement remained in place for Harrogate to provide a replacement vehicle for a failed Bradford working,
 

Deerfold

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I know it wasn't - the 653 was a YR (Bradford) route but on that Saturday afternoon a H&D vehicle headed south out of Harrogate with 653 Otley on its destination screen so as I presumed a YR vehicle had broken down and an old WYRCC agreement remained in place for Harrogate to provide a replacement vehicle for a failed Bradford working,

I know the 653 route well, but by the time I started catching it regularly it was being run by First.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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I know the 653 route well, but by the time I started catching it regularly it was being run by First. I hadn't realised H&D hadn't been bundled in with Keighley and York.
IIRC, West Yorkshire was privatised by sale to AJS Group though the properties were sold to Parkdale Holdings. They then divested Leeds, Bradford and Otley to Yorkshire Rider, with York going later to Rider Group. Hence, Harrogate, Keighley and Malton were retained as AJS, then Blazefield and now Transdev.
 

SCH117X

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GrandWazoo has it correct, somewhat baffled by Deerfolds assertation that because H&D filled in on a YR route on possibly a once off occurrence it was somehow not "bundled in with Keightley and York".
 

Deerfold

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GrandWazoo has it correct, somewhat baffled by Deerfolds assertation that because H&D filled in on a YR route on possibly a once off occurrence it was somehow not "bundled in with Keightley and York".

The two thoughts were not connected with a because. I have corrected my post. My knowledge of services on the West/North Yorkshire borders is from rather later, as I said.
 

davehsug

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In the 70s/80s, the Hanley-Sheffield service was run jointly between Trent & PMT, Hanley-Shrewsbury was Midland Red-PMT and going a long way back, I remember the Hanley-Winsford & Over service was run jointly between PMT & North Western. There were probably others, was Hanley-Chester PMT-Crosville at one time?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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In the 70s/80s, the Hanley-Sheffield service was run jointly between Trent & PMT, Hanley-Shrewsbury was Midland Red-PMT and going a long way back, I remember the Hanley-Winsford & Over service was run jointly between PMT & North Western. There were probably others, was Hanley-Chester PMT-Crosville at one time?
More importantly, Biddulph depot was shared between PMT and North Western
 

Flying Snail

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There are still some places where drivers from one company routinely or in emergency drive another operator's vehicles.

The Citlink 914/915 Glasgow-Fort William-Skye route is operated by both West Coast Motors and Shiel Buses. As well as driving their own coaches on some duties Shiel drivers routinely use WCM Irizars on the route, the morning Glasgow-Uig departure and return has a Glasgow based WCM driver to Fort William and a Shiel driver to Uig and back where a different WCM driver brings it back to Glasgow.

Translink Ulsterbus and Bus Eireann have and had a few examples where drivers take the other companies buses, I am not sure if there is still any examples of routine crossovers left, for many years the Belfast-Athlone service was an Ulsterbus coach through but driven by a Bus Eireann driver from Cavan or Monaghan to Athlone.

For some years in the 2000s Bus Eireann took a loan of Ulsterbus coaches for their portion of the jointly operated Dublin - Belfast service during the summer because of Loyalist agitators threatening to hijack Irish registered vehicles during their marching season.

There is still a reciprocal arrangement for emergency cover and maintenance with vehicles from each company being borrowed by drivers from the other if there is a breakdown mid-service. I myself drove numerous Ulsterbus coaches in Dublin due to the need to clear the bays in the bus station while the service drivers were taking their breaks.
 

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LT ran the 359 (Aylesbury-Amersham) jointly with United Counties [formerly Eastern National] until '64, and later a service in Slough (407? Cippenham-Langley Vill) jointly with Thames Valley. But yes, compared to other operators these were quite unusual.

The 44 was a part replacement for a service run by Jey-son Coaches, itself a replacement for an ex-Birch route, but the Stevenage section was brand new. Stevenage had never been directly connected to Luton previously.

Although not joint services as such, London Country did start to co-ordinate with Thames Valley during the 1960s with both operators providing cross-town routes in Slough and High Wycombe, into what was previously considered the other company's "territory". The MAP schemes of the 1970s mainly involved Thames Valley's successor, Alder Valley.
 

PaulWC

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In the 70s/80s, the Hanley-Sheffield service was run jointly between Trent & PMT, Hanley-Shrewsbury was Midland Red-PMT and going a long way back, I remember the Hanley-Winsford & Over service was run jointly between PMT & North Western. There were probably others, was Hanley-Chester PMT-Crosville at one time?

The C84 from Chester to Newcastle (extended to Hanley in 1986) was only ever run by Crosville, apart from a year or so around 1990 when the tendered Sunday service was run by PMT and Crosville Chester which was by then owned by PMT.

Pre-1986, Crosville had an agreement to outstation some buses at PMT's Newcastle depot for the services to Chester, Madeley and Knighton. PMT had a reciprocal agreement for a couple of buses to be parked at Crewe for a short time, but that all came to an end in 1986 when PMT won numerous tenders in the Crewe area. PMT set up their own depot in Crewe, and Crosville had to park their buses in Madeley for a short time, before a depot in Etruria was opened.
 

Old Yard Dog

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In the 1960's, the old 66 Bradford - Wakefield - Barnsley - Sheffield route was shared between Yorkshire Traction, Yorkshire Woollen and Sheffield City Transport.

And the old 64 Bradford - Huddersfield route was shared between Bradford City Transport, Huddersfield JOC and Hebble. I believe that the Huddersfield Joint Omnibus Committee was part owned by the railways and that BR tickets were valid on the 64.
 

philthetube

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The Leeds - Bradford 72 was a joint Leeds and Bradford city transport operation. You saw blue Bradford buses in leeds and green Leeds ones in Bradford. Seems to be a 100% First Bradford operation now. Think it used to be a tram route where they had to change gauges in Stanningley.

The Yorkshire Coastliner operation used to be joint West Yorkshire/East Yorkshire/United operation.

I think joint services fell foul of monopolies rules.
Post deregulation Premier Travel, Cambus and Eastern counties jointly ran the 792 ipswich Peterboro, service. 3 Coaches, one each company.
They had problems with monopoly rules, companies were required to compete and not organize cartels, as it was seen.

In the 792 case the service would not have been viable for any one company as it would have required two vehicles to be outstationed oane it was only after the companies announced that the service would be withdrawn that something was sorted. I was not privy to what that something was.
 

Welshman

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In the 1960's, the old 66 Bradford - Wakefield - Barnsley - Sheffield route was shared between Yorkshire Traction, Yorkshire Woollen and Sheffield City Transport.

And the old 64 Bradford - Huddersfield route was shared between Bradford City Transport, Huddersfield JOC and Hebble. I believe that the Huddersfield Joint Omnibus Committee was part owned by the railways and that BR tickets were valid on the 64.

Yes - there were some interesting examples in 1960's West Yorkshire!
The Halifax-Huddersfield direct [service 43] was a joint Halifax JOC/Huddersfield JOC, I seem to remember, with Halifax providing 3 vehicles to Huddersfield's 1.
There was also the Halifax-Huddersfield-Sheffield X68 & 68 services with Halifax, Yorkshire Traction and Sheffield providing one bus each, and I think Huddersfield also had a share on Saturdays.
 

noddingdonkey

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The 14, ancestor of today's 184 between Manchester and Uppermill, was a three-way split between Manchester and Oldham corporations and the North Western company until all three became part of Greater Manchester PTE.

The immediate predecessor of the current 184 was the 365 operated by First Huddersfield. On one occasion the driver was flagged down by the driver of a First Manchester service and alerted to an issue with the vehicle.

We took a diversion - in service - through Oldham Mumps depot where some minor assistance - possibly a coolant top up - was provided.

In recent years when the 184 has broken down on the right side of the Pennines recovery has come from Oldham rather then Huddersfield depot loaning a vehicle.
 

edwin_m

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The immediate predecessor of the current 184 was the 365 operated by First Huddersfield. On one occasion the driver was flagged down by the driver of a First Manchester service and alerted to an issue with the vehicle.

We took a diversion - in service - through Oldham Mumps depot where some minor assistance - possibly a coolant top up - was provided.

In recent years when the 184 has broken down on the right side of the Pennines recovery has come from Oldham rather then Huddersfield depot loaning a vehicle.
The 365 was Oldham-Uppermill-Huddersfield I think, but the 14/184 was the longstanding number for Manchester-Oldham-Uppermill. I believe the core route west of Uppermill is unchanged since the 1920s but First have messed around with the outer terminating points several times since deregulation and it now has about three including Huddersfield. Until then it was through-worked with the 13/183 back to Manchester via Delph station, changing route numbers in Uppermill both ways, and at one time I think had different operators in different directions round the loop.
 

Wirewiper

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The 365 was Oldham-Uppermill-Huddersfield I think, but the 14/184 was the longstanding number for Manchester-Oldham-Uppermill. I believe the core route west of Uppermill is unchanged since the 1920s but First have messed around with the outer terminating points several times since deregulation and it now has about three including Huddersfield. Until then it was through-worked with the 13/183 back to Manchester via Delph station, changing route numbers in Uppermill both ways, and at one time I think had different operators in different directions round the loop.

I can't recall the exact history, but the Oldham-Huddersfield route was operated by Hanson's of Huddersfield until their bus services were taken over by either Huddersfield Corporation or Huddersfield Joint Omnibus Committee in the late 1960s, the route gaining the number 65 at this point. Huddersfield's buses were in turn subsumed into the West Yorkshire PTE (Passenger Transport Executive) from 1st April 1974 and the service was renumbered 365 a few years later.

There was also a North Western Road Car service over the same route that was withdrawn in the early 1970s.
 

Deerfold

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I can't recall the exact history, but the Oldham-Huddersfield route was operated by Hanson's of Huddersfield until their bus services were taken over by either Huddersfield Corporation or Huddersfield Joint Omnibus Committee in the late 1960s, the route gaining the number 65 at this point. Huddersfield's buses were in turn subsumed into the West Yorkshire PTE (Passenger Transport Executive) from 1st April 1974 and the service was renumbered 365 a few years later.

There was also a North Western Road Car service over the same route that was withdrawn in the early 1970s.

It did run for a while between Oldham and Bradford in the late nineties, providing 1bph of the service between Huddersfield and Bradford with the rest being 363s (now all X63s during the day).

For a few months Yorkshire Blue Bus competed and First added another bus, so briefly there were 3bph Huddersfield to Oldham.
 

philthetube

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I don't know if this still happens but many National Express routes used to do driver changes to ensure staff get home for Christmas. Sometimes requiring meeting in quite strange places.
 

Roilshead

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I can't recall the exact history, but the Oldham-Huddersfield route was operated by Hanson's of Huddersfield until their bus services were taken over by either Huddersfield Corporation or Huddersfield Joint Omnibus Committee in the late 1960s, the route gaining the number 65 at this point. Huddersfield's buses were in turn subsumed into the West Yorkshire PTE (Passenger Transport Executive) from 1st April 1974 and the service was renumbered 365 a few years later.

There was also a North Western Road Car service over the same route that was withdrawn in the early 1970s.

The goodwill of Hanson's bus services and the NBC share of the JOC were both acquired by Huddersfield Corporation on 01.10.69 (courtesy of a c£240 000 government loan, to be repaid over the following ten years). The Hanson Huddersfield-Oldham route was offered to North Western (who operated a similar [sic] Huddersfield-Oldham route), but as the route was unremunerative North Western declined the offer. The Hanson route (Huddersfield 65) ran via Diggle and Uppermill, whereas North Western's route (160) ran via Delph. By 1969, both routes ran three-times each way Monday-Friday, and roughly two-hourly on Saturday/Sunday, on a co-ordinated timetable (but without inter-availability of return tickets).

During the summer of 1970 North Western asked Colne Valley UDC for financial support to continue their service. When this was not forthcoming North Western surrendered their licence to the Traffic Commissioner on 31.12.70, after which Huddersfield continued alone.
 

Steamysandy

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Mention of Berwick reminds me of the various SOL/United joint services between Edinburgh and Newcastle, which lasted until 1981. SOL also ran the Edinburgh-Dumfries service jointly with Western SMT and an Edinburgh-Perth service jointly with Alexander (Fife).
SOL not only worked these services officially but was not averse. to borrowing tour coaches to cover early morning workings such as on one occasion,a Ford Thames from Highland (ex Stark of Dunbar) as a duplicate from East Linton to Edinburgh!
On another note a trip to Orkney in 1999 saw a Citylink from Edinburgh to Perth,thence a Rapsons Coach in National Express livery to Inverness on a working from Birmingham.
Next Morning another Rapson coach,this one was Citylink outside and a National ,Express interior to Scrabster!
 

Wirewiper

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The goodwill of Hanson's bus services and the NBC share of the JOC were both acquired by Huddersfield Corporation on 01.10.69 (courtesy of a c£240 000 government loan, to be repaid over the following ten years). The Hanson Huddersfield-Oldham route was offered to North Western (who operated a similar [sic] Huddersfield-Oldham route), but as the route was unremunerative North Western declined the offer. The Hanson route (Huddersfield 65) ran via Diggle and Uppermill, whereas North Western's route (160) ran via Delph. By 1969, both routes ran three-times each way Monday-Friday, and roughly two-hourly on Saturday/Sunday, on a co-ordinated timetable (but without inter-availability of return tickets).

During the summer of 1970 North Western asked Colne Valley UDC for financial support to continue their service. When this was not forthcoming North Western surrendered their licence to the Traffic Commissioner on 31.12.70, after which Huddersfield continued alone.

Thank you for the additional information.
 
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